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  • #76
    Originally posted by Haquim View Post

    In V5 morality works as follows:



    Since Chronicle Tenets are set by the whole troupe before the Chronicle starts they can be tailored to serve the kind of Chronicle that is to be played. Want a Sabbat Game? Set Chronicle Tenets like "Show no mercy to the agents of the Ancients".



    The Sabbat book for V5 will be done with the supervision of Justin Achilli, who, as you very well know, is the same guy behind the Guide to the Sabbat, a book that reinvented the sect and made it into something much more playable and less "murderhoboey" than it previously was. What we've seen of the Sabbat thus far is just broken survivors of a lost war. I don't think they represent what the Sabbat will become after El_Bastardo works on it. That said, from what happened to the Sabbat in V5 I suspect the Sect will become much more agile and effective. No more doing the Camarilla stuff but calling the de facto prince of the city "Cardinal". Also I hope V5 Sabbat will make it possible for the 3 sects to co-exist because in the past the Sabbat/Camarilla conflict turned the Anarchs in to a mere subsect of the Camarilla. Camarilla and Anarchs oppose each other because of politics. Sabbat and Camarilla and Anarchs need to oppose each other based on something else. This is beyond the point of this thread though.



    Humanity had 10 sins in hierarchy as well, yet the Humanity score in V5 just tells you what your morality score does for you. This may easily be adapted for paths. Keep in mind that Paths included examples of sins but at the core of those sins there were less than 10 ideas. In the case of the (Revised) Path of Blood for example the core ideas were you judge other vampires according to the law/you keep yourself under control/you don't bother mortals/you act with honour when dealing with your allies.

    Also, CTPhipps has a right to his opinions but they are just that, opinions, not facts.

    The point I am trying and failing to make is that Chronicle tenets make paths impossible. A Path has it's own tenets with no interaction at all with arbitrary ST fiat tenets, or it isn't a path. That was the point of Paths, morality set internally, not externally/ (also the Guide to the Sabbat, by turning them into 'anarchs with a few weirdos' made them far, far more murderhobo than they had previously been, and way less interesting
    Last edited by Taggie; 11-15-2020, 02:37 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Taggie View Post


      The point I am trying and failing to make is that Chronicle tenets make paths impossible. A Path has it's own tenets with no interaction at all with arbitrary ST fiat tenets, or it isn't a path. That was the point of Paths, morality set internally, not externally/ (also the Guide to the Sabbat, by turning them into 'anarchs with a few weirdos' made them far, far more murderhobo than they had previously been, and way less interesting
      Again: Chronicle Tenets ARE NOT "ST fiat Tenets" they are established values set by the whole troupe before the game begins. In V5 morality works differently than it did in previous editions and this does include Humanity. Does this mean Humanity doesn't work in V5? No. It's simply a different system. In V5 your core beliefs (your convictions) are tested against social expectations. If you follow a Path your convictions are no less internal but are tested externally. Again, the same is true for the "Path of Humanity".
      So are Paths possible in V5? Sure they are, but OBVIOUSLY you need to adapt them to the framework of rules that define morality for this edition of the game.

      As for your opinion on V2 Sabbat vs Revised Sabbat... I don't know what to tell you because for me waht you are claiming is simply lunacy.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Haquim View Post

        Again: Chronicle Tenets ARE NOT "ST fiat Tenets" they are established values set by the whole troupe before the game begins. In V5 morality works differently than it did in previous editions and this does include Humanity. Does this mean Humanity doesn't work in V5? No. It's simply a different system. In V5 your core beliefs (your convictions) are tested against social expectations. If you follow a Path your convictions are no less internal but are tested externally. Again, the same is true for the "Path of Humanity".
        So are Paths possible in V5? Sure they are, but OBVIOUSLY you need to adapt them to the framework of rules that define morality for this edition of the game.

        As for your opinion on V2 Sabbat vs Revised Sabbat... I don't know what to tell you because for me waht you are claiming is simply lunacy.
        It does mean humanity doesn't work in V5, that is the basic problem, and your experience with tenets is different than mine You need a working morality system to have Paths, and V5 doesn't have that.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Taggie View Post

          It does mean humanity doesn't work in V5, that is the basic problem, and your experience with tenets is different than mine You need a working morality system to have Paths, and V5 doesn't have that.
          Ooooook...

          So in your esteemed opinion the whole morality system for V5 doesn't work because you think morality should only be an internal process and should never be confronted with outside ethics. To do otherwise is breaking the morality system beyond repair, apparently.

          This is what makes or breakes a "working morality system" for you, if it doesn't conform "it doesn't work".

          Seems to me you have a very narrow definition of what "works" and it's not compatible with V5, which makes the whole scope of this thread moot imo.


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          • #80
            Originally posted by Haquim View Post

            Ooooook...

            So in your esteemed opinion the whole morality system for V5 doesn't work because you think morality should only be an internal process and should never be confronted with outside ethics. To do otherwise is breaking the morality system beyond repair, apparently.

            This is what makes or breakes a "working morality system" for you, if it doesn't conform "it doesn't work".

            Seems to me you have a very narrow definition of what "works" and it's not compatible with V5, which makes the whole scope of this thread moot imo.

            Morality is an internal process, that's the entire point. External ethics should not have any impact on a vampires control over the beast, that is by definition a battle you fight alone.

            They could take this chance to fix the broken down, shallow morality system, and take the emphasis away from the game destroying hunger system.
            Last edited by Taggie; 11-16-2020, 06:04 AM.

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            • #81
              the only reason paths and Roads are a thing is because morality is a community thing as much as it's an individual thing,
              it's not a popular concept (I didn't enjoy that aspect very much, since it contradicted the "vampires are loners" design of the game, and only made sense in the sabbat), but paths are built on that assumption,
              all paths are born of a certain influence, political structure, social environment, sabbat hierarchy or ritae, the only exception I can think of being Metamorphosis (though it is still tied to the discipline of vicissitude)

              pathists are influenced by path examplars, and can be slowed down by other incompatible paths (like they were slowed down by Revelations, Lilith and Harmony),
              even Power and the Inner Voice, which is very individualist, tends refers itself to the sabbat hierarchy

              and, if morality was strictly personal, there would be more paths, more roads and roads wouldn't be dead in the modern nights

              V5 isn't breaking away from that, it simply distinguishes between the personnal and the communal by separating convictions and Tenets
              Last edited by Pleiades; 11-16-2020, 08:13 AM.


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              • #82
                Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                the only reason paths and Roads are a thing is because morality is a community thing as much as it's an individual thing,
                it's not a popular concept (I didn't enjoy that aspect very much, since it contradicted the "vampires are loners" design of the game, and only made sense in the sabbat), but paths are built on that assumption,
                all paths are born of a certain influence, political structure, social environment, sabbat hierarchy or ritae, the only exception I can think of being Metamorphosis (though it is still tied to the discipline of vicissitude)

                pathists are influenced by path examplars, and can be slowed down by other incompatible paths (like they were slowed down by Revelations, Lilith and Harmony),
                even Power and the Inner Voice, which is very individualist, tends refers itself to the sabbat hierarchy

                and, if morality was strictly personal, there would be more paths, more roads and roads wouldn't be dead in the modern nights

                V5 isn't breaking away from that, it simply distinguishes between the personnal and the communal by separating convictions and Tenets
                and yet, for every path you quote, it's Sins (Tenets) are it's own, embraced by the one walking the Path when they start that journey, not a universal imposition

                Those sins may include social interactions and expectations, but again they are taken on by choice.
                Last edited by Taggie; 11-16-2020, 08:35 AM.

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                • #83
                  I liked how in V1 and V2 there was the line 'Morality is Chosen, Not Ordained'

                  That went wrong in revised, and went further to shit in V5. Morality is now Ordained. You have less control over it. There's the right path and the wrong path, and both feel far more artificial than they ever have been before.


                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                  There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                  • #84
                    I mean, I hope Achili does a good job, but I don't mind if he doesn't and I have to keep just ignoring most of the V5 Humanity system. And the Diablerie system, and the Elder Rules. And Touchstones. And the Sabbat Metaplot. And the 2nd and 3rd books in the product line.

                    (Not Rudy. I kept Rudy, but he's Tanitbaal-Sahar.)

                    WW has literally never been known for good rules.

                    It's content for a game that I run completely differently than the book directs because I enjoy the world. I have already had to houserule the game to a usable state. They can only give me help by letting me compare my houserules to their published product. If the book is useless, I'm going to just ignore it like anything else I don't like. My players have a lot more faith in me than they do Paradox.


                    Gogo Baccala

                    Drag Queen, Ex-Attorney, Freelance Deity

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                      and yet, for every path you quote, it's Sins (Tenets) are it's own, embraced by the one walking the Path when they start that journey, not a universal imposition
                      the vinculum, the coven, the sabbat and its law, the monomacy etc are all universal,
                      they will challenge your path the same way chronicle tenets do


                      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                      I liked how in V1 and V2 there was the line 'Morality is Chosen, Not Ordained'
                      v2 wanted the cake and eat it too,
                      they wanted a morality system, but they didn't want it to be challenging
                      they wanted morality to be chosen not ordained, but they still made paths and humanity that were ordained (in theory),

                      if v2 is what you want, might as well remove the morality system altogether, it wouldn't make a goddamn difference

                      not saying "you should go revised", but if you want morality that actually comes into play, go revised, because that's the version where morality gets challenged, where it means something

                      if you don't, rather than go 2e, just remove morality altogether


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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                        V5 isn't breaking away from that, it simply distinguishes between the personnal and the communal by separating convictions and Tenets
                        I think this is interesting.

                        But, one needs to put things in perspective and not miss the forest for the trees

                        One of the reasons the Sabbat was a (wonderful) mess , it's because it was filled with comunities. Different, often contradictory, Paths are a reflection of this. You may be the only one in a pack following a certain Path - this is not to contradict the idea that paths often are created by other vampires and teached within a comunity, but rather part of the idea of very disparate groups of vampires interconected by a net of "blood bonds" .

                        On a more general note - and remembering Humanity was a Path/Road - YES, Paths are often (with some exceptions) comunal constructs. At the very least, they do have teachers that are interested in spreading them. But, at the same time, Vampire it's a game where various of these comunities can and do coexist.

                        Much like how in real life one city can have various different cultures inside.

                        And that's what makes it hard for V5 system, if you think of Tenets as comunal ethics and peer presure: You cannot have multiple "comunities" in the same story - you have one set of Tenets. Only one "comunity" has a say. The "minoritary" comunities have to figth against this "opression" with their Conviction and paying special Loresheets (so to speak, don't take this literally as Tenets exist OOC - but that's the "meta" impression that gives when one set of Paths have to figth more than others to exist)

                        That being said, I do think it's clever for a Sabbat game to craft, like CTPhipps did back in page 2:

                        Originally posted by CTPhipps
                        * Sabbat Humanity is replaced with Path
                        * Sabbat do not have Human Touchstones but Vampire Touchstones
                        * Sabbat do not lose Path for diablerie, making vampires, or the Vinculum
                        * Sabbat gain stains for cowardice, betrayal of pack mates, betrayal of the sect, and betrayal of personal tenets
                        * The Sabbat has a dozen individual Blood Cults, at least one for each of the old Paths
                        A sort of "Road of the Sabbat" to keep it as general guideline, replacing rules as needed when they clash with it. And allowing individual Paths (that are going to be pretty much all Paths) as Blood Cults, that, I would imagine, could have ways to choose stuff other than vampries as Touchstones, and some other ways to generate friction within the sect.

                        I don't like every part of it, but I can see the idea as a reasonable compromise, much better than *just* have Paths as Convictions and Loresheets. At least for the Sabbat, that's a sect with a heavily overaching communuty.
                        Last edited by Aleph; 11-16-2020, 10:28 AM.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                          the vinculum, the coven, the sabbat and its law, the monomacy etc are all universal,
                          they will challenge your path the same way chronicle tenets do




                          Nope, Tenets tell you what your morality is, they totally and utterly over rule personnal convictions and are imposed by the ST (despite what the books says I ahve never had this not be the case) as a hammer to beat characters, as well as the sickening abuse simulator that is touchstones, again even the examples held up to show they aren't evil, are manipulative, disgusting examples of domestic abuse. They combine to convince me the original team absolutly meant the pedophile primogen and neo-nazi dog whistling, it fits perfectly with the system they wrote.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Aleph View Post

                            That being said, I do think it's clever for a Sabbat game to craft, like CTPhipps did back in page 2:



                            A sort of "Road of the Sabbat" to keep it as general guideline, replacing rules as needed when they clash with it. And allowing individual Paths (that are going to be pretty much all Paths) as Blood Cults, that, I would imagine, could have ways to choose stuff other than vampries as Touchstones, and some other ways to generate friction within the sect.

                            I don't like every part of it, but I can see the idea as a reasonable compromise, much better than *just* have Paths as Convictions and Loresheets. At least for the Sabbat, that's a sect with a heavily overaching communuty.
                            yeah that's exactly what I was saying:

                            Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                            same could be said about the new "humanity",
                            morality is becoming broader, the same will probably happen to paths

                            rather than different tightly defined paths, you'll have one broad sabbat morality,
                            and the different paths will focus on some convictions
                            you have an overarching "sabbat morality" (i should have specified "sabbbat Tenets"), with convictions for each path

                            because, Tenets are universal and:

                            the vinculum, the coven, the sabbat and its law, the monomacy etc are all universal,
                            they will challenge your path the same way chronicle tenets do
                            Last edited by Pleiades; 11-16-2020, 01:10 PM.


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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                              Nope, Tenets tell you what your morality is, they totally and utterly over rule personnal convictions and are imposed by the ST (despite what the books says I ahve never had this not be the case) as a hammer to beat characters, as well as the sickening abuse simulator that is touchstones, again even the examples held up to show they aren't evil, are manipulative, disgusting examples of domestic abuse. They combine to convince me the original team absolutly meant the pedophile primogen and neo-nazi dog whistling, it fits perfectly with the system they wrote.
                              that works for humanity, cause humanity shouldn't work, and the "human" vampires should suffer for it.

                              however, we're not here to talk about humanity but how to handle paths (refer to your first post on this thread)


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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                                that works for humanity, cause humanity shouldn't work, and the "human" vampires should suffer for it.

                                however, we're not here to talk about humanity but how to handle paths (refer to your first post on this thread)
                                Humanity is a path.

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