Paths, and other Sabbat related shenanigans

[CTPhipps]

You're an OC Tzmisce fan. You're not an OG Tzmisce fan. Might as well tell us you're a socialist because you support the Nazis and socialism's in the name. The OC clan are just ventrue who want more personal space. you love a ventrue knockoff, you just want to pretend otherwise.
Anyone who loves the Real OG Tzmisce loves the fleshy-flesh I'm-a-motherfucking-artist-surgeon-wizard Discipline of Viscissitide. It lends itself to so many different concepts. has so many different meanings. and brings about a big social connundrum just by existing. To hose it down to nothing and make it a Protean derivative is like taking the sky from Zues.

I don't feel like separating the powers between Disciplines means that you lose Vicissitude. Personally, I feel it expands Vicissitude. Sort of like how I feel that Julia in SHADOWS OF NEW YORK benefits from being a Lasombra who can talk with ghosts.

[Pleiades]

Anyone who loves the Real OG Tzmisce loves the fleshy-flesh I'm-a-motherfucking-artist-surgeon-wizard Discipline of Viscissitide.

I wonder what people love so much about Vicissitude,
it was lame until about vici 6 maybe

it was great for NPCs with 6+ in combination with potence/protean/thaumaturgy,
for PCs though...unless your ST was nice, you were gonna cry

[Resplendent Fire]

V5 Vicissitude if it were to exist should certainly be revamped. The first three dots are individually quite weak. I don't really mind how it gets done as long as it works, and the art we've seen so far shows that fleshcrafting is definitely still a thing.

[Pleiades]

I don't feel like separating the powers between Disciplines means that you lose Vicissitude. Personally, I feel it expands Vicissitude. Sort of like how I feel that Julia in SHADOWS OF NEW YORK benefits from being a Lasombra who can talk with ghosts.

don't forget that Julia has oblivion 5, dominate 3 and and enough potence to beat up an older nosferatu, all the while she's only a year old

she breaks enough rules that you can't really use her as an example of rule viability

[CTPhipps]

don't forget that Julia has oblivion 5, dominate 3 and and enough potence to beat up an older nosferatu, all the while she's only a year old

she breaks enough rules that you can't really use her as an example of rule viability

She's a PC, ergo she can surge up the ranks!



Anyway, Vicissitude is going to be a core Discipline it seems so no use crying over spilt vitae.

[Pleiades]

She's a PC, ergo she can surge up the ranks!

that's not how PCs work, except in video games

Anyway, Vicissitude is going to be a core Discipline it seems so no use crying over spilt vitae.

well, more useless Tzimisce it is

[Taggie]

She's a PC, ergo she can surge up the ranks!



Anyway, Vicissitude is going to be a core Discipline it seems so no use crying over spilt vitae.

not if you use the suggested xp progression

[Taggie]

that's not how PCs work, except in video games



well, more useless Tzimisce it is

Viscittitude is amazing, maybe not as a direct combat discipline, but yay body horror

[Pleiades]

Viscittitude is amazing, maybe not as a direct combat discipline, but yay body horror

I really need the combat capabilities, at least something akin to Flesh Shintai
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Flesh_Shintai

[Shakanaka]

I don't feel like separating the powers between Disciplines means that you lose Vicissitude. Personally, I feel it expands Vicissitude. Sort of like how I feel that Julia in SHADOWS OF NEW YORK benefits from being a Lasombra who can talk with ghosts.

If Vicissitude is merged with Protean, then you do LOSE the Discipline, what are you talking about? Nothing is expanded at all, this thought process is just a veiled want to have the ability done away with just like the other Disciplines. These two Disciplines were never the same whatsoever. Not only that Necromancy never had anything to do with Obtenebration like others have said in countless threads before and it was stupid to merge it into "Oblivion".

I really need the combat capabilities, at least something akin to Flesh Shintai

You're kidding me, right? By Level 3 of Vicissitude you can use simple Bonecraft to make natural weaponry from your body, Strength + Medicine on a simple touch can crush the bones and flesh of an opponent per success, and another roll of Strength + Medicine over 5+ success can pierce the heart of an enemy Vampire to the point where they get the damage AND lose after their blood-points. By Level 4 Vicissitude Tzimisce can go into Horror Form that increases all their Physical Attributes by 3 (basically a ghetto Crinos form), making anyone who transforms into this form extremely deadly in close-combat in concert with making your own natural weaponry from your body. From what I see in this link Flesh-Craft has LESS offensive capabilities than Vicissitude.

EDIT: I just checked the KotE book and its like you don't even know what you're talking about or trolling. Not a single part of Flesh-Shintai has an offensive capability or anything as close to Vicissitude at all.

Long Neck can allow you to extend your neck up to your Stamina, but its a laughably stupid move leaving you open for decapitation (unless Detach Limb is used, the second part of the ability I'll mention next; but you'd have to activate as soon as a swing goes for your neck and you can't respond quick enough) and is entirely circumstantial.

Detach Limb is horrible with the detach limbs that you split off only having 4 health levels.. 4.. health levels.. The only boon here is that it can help you constrict with help with Long Neck, but again its very vulnerable.

Lotus Cloud is a breath ability that apparently calms you down in a narcotic-like state, but if you attack then the victim snaps of it and only gets a -1 Dice penalty to any defense Maneuver.. yeah, really deadly there..

Pelesit is literally about making small entities from your body that can spy for you.. but that's it. You have to split your Health levels with it to even be viable for combat: "For each Health Level the pelesit "borrows," it has two Health Levels and a Strength and Stamina of 1 (these Traits increase arithmetically as the pelesit is bestowed more of the vampire's flesh". It has a decent Dexterity of 3, 2 Dodge, and 2 Brawl, but even if it hits the creature you make isn't going to do much damage unless you split more of your Health levels.

Not only that if this thing is killed, you gain all the damage levels it had before Death.

Ten Thousand Forms is just a shape-shift ability that allows you to doppelgang as any person, but to even copy a specific person the book flat out says you have to do Perception + Athletics (diff 9). The only combat boon I can think this level 5 ability can help with in combat is that it lets you fly because it says you can grow bat wings..

This Shintai isn't even close to Vicissitude in combat ability.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Good Uses of Vicissitidue 1-3 raw:
-Age-up characters for the masquerade
-Give people, vampires and their retainers, new identities
-Perfectly provide the appearance of another without needing to worry about the shortcomings of obfuscate.
-Improve appearance for better feeding.
-faking deaths.
-Give tattoos to vampires who otherwise would have to use those blasted sorcerers, who only have black ink, and are probably setting up a spell to grant eternal power over you.
-Sex reassignment, and other attempts at tackling body dysphoria.
-Making luxury ghouls and designer pets.
-Confusing the fuck out of zoologists
-Increasing the loyalty and social effectiveness of your ghouls.
-Make offers people don't want to refuse.
-Making cults out of your ability.
-Turning your insides into a better storage place.

Kinda-shitty uses RAW:
Combat
Making Combat Ghouls.


Basically, having Vicissitude is a magnet for wealth and prestation. You are offering a valuable service to people who benefit greatly from it. The fact that you can't really create good combat monsters RAW is more than made up for by your ability to resource ghouls who are more loyal and financially better equipped.

The Identity of Vicissitude, to me a person who loves the real tzmisce, is completely different from Protean. Vicissitude is a surgeon's power. an Artists's power. It's a calling. A profession as much as Thaumaturgy or necromancy. Protean is canonically just someone calling upon the beast to make temporary transformations for utility.

[Pleiades]

Your kidding me, right? By Level 3 of Vicissitude you can use simple Bonecraft to make natural weaponry from your body, Strength + Medicine on a simple touch can crush the bones and flesh of an opponent per success, and another roll of Strength + Medicine over 5+ success can pierce the heart of an enemy Vampire to the point where they get the damage AND lose after their blood-points. By Level 4 Vicissitude Tzimisce can go into Horror Form that increases all their Physical Attributes by 3 (basically a ghetto Crinos form), making anyone who transforms into this form extremely deadly in close-combat in concert with making your own natural weaponry from your body. From what I see in this link Flesh-Craft has LESS offensive capabilities than Vicissitude. [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]

I vaguely remember kuei-jin rules, but iirc, by lvl 1 you could do bite attacks (aggravated) at a distance without grappling, and by level 3 you could negate damage,

but i'm not suggesting using the flesh shintai rules as written, I'm suggesting giving vicissitude (Tzimisce) more combat functionnality (not necessarily offensive) akin to flesh shintai, one that would be more effective and could compete with others

as it were, Tzimisce were no competition against Lasombra or Gangrel anti or even Nosferatu antitribu,
and it was worse for PCs as Lasombra, Gangrel and Nos were far stronger even without min-maxing

I don't see why we should disagree on this, I want Tzimisce to be more powerful, I assume you'd want the same

[Taggie]

I vaguely remember kuei-jin rules, but iirc, by lvl 1 you could do bite attacks (aggravated) at a distance without grappling, and by level 3 you could negate damage,

but i'm not suggesting using the flesh shintai rules as written, I'm suggesting giving vicissitude (Tzimisce) more combat functionnality (not necessarily offensive) akin to flesh shintai, one that would be more effective and could compete with others

as it were, Tzimisce were no competition against Lasombra or Gangrel anti or even Nosferatu antitribu,
and it was worse for PCs as Lasombra, Gangrel and Nos were far stronger even without min-maxing

I don't see why we should disagree on this, I want Tzimisce to be more powerful, I assume you'd want the same

Not every discipline needs to make you a combat monster to be good. I don't want frenzied chaos spawn, I want Tzimisce, and they can be brutally powerful, but not in the same way as protean does it, by becoming meastros of flesh, blood and bone, (horrid form kicks ass for instance), Blood Form, Inner Mastery and Body Impolitic can be hugely impactful, but don't discard the utility and possibilities of melding flesh and bone at will, if you really want blades, spines etc are perfectly possible, as is mutilating enemies flesh, folding bone etc.

[Pleiades]

Not every discipline needs to make you a combat monster to be good. I don't want frenzied chaos spawn, I want Tzimisce, and they can be brutally powerful, but not in the same way as protean does it, by becoming meastros of flesh, blood and bone, (horrid form kicks ass for instance), Blood Form, Inner Mastery and Body Impolitic can be hugely impactful, but don't discard the utility and possibilities of melding flesh and bone at will, if you really want blades, spines etc are perfectly possible, as is mutilating enemies flesh, folding bone etc.

fine, leave vicisstude the way it is,
but make their discipline spread more combat viable

they're supposed to be sabbat leaders, and are expected to monomacy,
right now, Lasombra beat them by a fair margin even with the oblivion nerf (which I hope they will reconsider),
in addition to Gangrel and Nos

[MyWifeIsScary]

Leaders don't need to be combat gods. Look at Ventrue, or Malkavians. The Ventrue are near useless in fights (post-revised), and fighting a Malkavian is the vampire equivalent to beating a child. The strength of these clans and the Tzmisce isn't their own physical capabilities, it's in getting other people to fight their battles for them.

Also the Sabbat allows for non-combat monomancy.