Paths, and other Sabbat related shenanigans

[Taggie]

How do you see the Sabbat appearing in V5? How do you see Paths being integrated with the current morality system? For the first question I have no idea, for the second, well it would need an overhaul, as Tenets and Convictions do not function for paths, at least imho.

[Resplendent Fire]

Bah, what good is enoch (or the second city) to modern vampires? Even if they could fine the place, Vampires think they'll find recordings there? Who would write down such incriminating histories and if they did, would they write such things down on materials that can survive, in a language that anyone can comprehend today? Why would methuselah pop up now, why would they concentrate around a small area, why would... The more I think about it. The dumber it is.

I believe the word "Gehenna" answers most of what you just said and "Beckoning" answers the rest. That also explains why it's not exactly "dumb." It may not have been a good (or at least palatable for some) decision for the setting, but it fits fine within the existing lore. Elders aren't going there because they decided to all up and search for Enoch or the Second City, they were called. They went there to fight a war, not do archeology.

[Resplendent Fire]

Oh right I read your post about it. I meant if there was anything in the V5 products.

I do think it's a bit odd to dismiss the importance of the Arab Spring and ensuing events, for good or ill. Not that you did.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Bah, what good is enoch (or the second city) to modern vampires? Even if they could fine the place, Vampires think they'll find recordings there? Who would write down such incriminating histories and if they did, would they write such things down on materials that can survive, in a language that anyone can comprehend today? Why would methuselah pop up now, why would they concentrate around a small area, why would... The more I think about it. The dumber it is.

[Val_Nir]

Might have something to do with Cainite origins being in that part of the world, not so much the mortal conflicts alongside it. We didn't have to have a big war in New York to go alongside the Camarilla taking it from the Sabbat. The Gehenna War and the Beckoning are literally part of Gehenna in V5.

I can't find anything directly connecting this to the Arab Spring. Where would that be?

It not just might have to do something with it, it's stated in the BJD that the war is happening in the same land where Enoch once stood, and all the Metaplot-Heavy Folks (Sabbat, elders, most likely including TMR whose sacred duty is to protect the meths and antes, probably Inconnu etc) are being stuffed into one place - where it all began, where Jyhad started. The conflict is happening not only there, but the devs unequivocally point to this particular connection. I think it's obvious it's more than just symbolic.

I mentioned Arab Spring as an inseparable part of the larger turmoil which in its own turn kicked off further major events in the ongoing struggle across the whole region, the likes of which are not happening anywhere else in the world right now.

[Resplendent Fire]

Might have something to do with Cainite origins being in that part of the world, not so much the mortal conflicts alongside it. We didn't have to have a big war in New York to go alongside the Camarilla taking it from the Sabbat. The Gehenna War and the Beckoning are literally part of Gehenna in V5.

I can't find anything directly connecting this to the Arab Spring. Where would that be?

[MyWifeIsScary]

Vampires taking advantage of human conflict's great and normal and stuff.
But having "THE GEHENNA WAR" be the current conflict in the middle east is well beyond good reasoning.

You mean to say that of all the conflicts we've had in the last hundred years or the impending great conflict; Two world wars included, the Cold war included, or perhaps a little in the future with the third world war or constant state of civil wars... The Arab spring is going to be important for vampires? I don't want to belittle a series of ongoing conflicts that's lead to thousands of deaths, but that's clearly not an apocalyptic war. It's going to be so dated when the middle east calms down. What happens then? Do the Sabbat admit they were being morons or do they claim it's 'just the begining' like the end of a bad tv show or do they actually say -yeah, gehenna won, let's enter another long-night-
Like... it's just such an immature attempt to be topical, something that little belongs in a setting about immortal vampires, and a shitty way to get rid of the second largest sect in the game so we can focus on the Red Vs Blue of Anarchs Vs Cam.

[Resplendent Fire]

We do not know what Vicissitude will be for at least a couple more weeks.

[Val_Nir]

I see no issue in vampires parasytizing on human conflict; this was the deal for all of WoD/VtM history. The story of Chechen campaigns (not the bullshit from the book but the actual 90s military campaigns) is absolutely worth telling via WoD as well.
Another thing is to divorce it succesfully from the human causes and do a proper research/hire people either native to the region or having been reporting/researching on it for decades.

[CTPhipps]

yup. TBH they had a good rule with Charnel Houses of Europe, on how exactly to handle real world atrocities in WOD, the Gehenna Crusade seems to break that rule, by one: Being current, 2: Not really doing the research, and 3: being tasteless about it. Same problem the Chechnya section had, but for an entire plot line.

No need for any of it to do the Gehenna Crusade, IMHO.

[Taggie]

Polonia claiming credit for 9/11 is the most tasteless and weird thing in all of WOD history.

yup. TBH they had a good rule with Charnel Houses of Europe, on how exactly to handle real world atrocities in WOD, the Gehenna Crusade seems to break that rule, by one: Being current, 2: Not really doing the research, and 3: being tasteless about it. Same problem the Chechnya section had, but for an entire plot line.

[CTPhipps]

Polonia claiming credit for 9/11 is the most tasteless and weird thing in all of WOD history.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I imagine most Sabbat Cities are just... Camarilla cities but with more clans and the Vauldrie done between neighbors. Courts are more religious in function. Because of the Vauldrie, everything runs a lot smoother, at least enough so that it counters a lot of things the Sabbat does worse than the Camarilla.
Peacetime Sabbat? Some folks act like they're preparing for war. but really their behaviour normalizes eachother. Good social bonds prevents the worst kinds of deviance.

But then again I also Imagine most Camarilla cities are pretty chill and work well.



Players just don't play in cities where everything works too well. And trying to move to a new city is inherently a destabilizing action....

[Val_Nir]

so, since Revised, VtM has focused on vampires are fragile territorial social predators, being mostly socialy inclined, having traveling impediments (day-night cycle and whatnot), avoiding violent conflict due to its deadlyness

also, since Revised, the devs have completely failed to respect that design choice, war is everywhere, violence is ever present, yet somehow doesn't disturb the local politics or social circles at all

also also, even though the devs have done a 180 on themselves and went the action-rpg route, they failed to provide players with proper action mechanics and survival mechanics for nomadic and violent vampires


now V5 comes in and, like for Revised, they go all "we're definitely making a political oriented game, we swear",

but of course, as if the Revised Sect wars weren't crazy enough, they decide that all sabbat and elders have gone en mass to the old world, leaving behind everything (nevermind if some methuselah might awaken in the Americas while the sabbat is absent) and have a massive war of all things,
and the ones that are left behind are Werewolf-like violent terrorists

how did they all manage to go to the old world to have a big war? you guessed it, the mechanics still don't explain how they having such an easy time moving around with weapons while they can't use technology and the government is hunting them down

I want to believe Justin can fix this whole mess,
hopefully by deleting the whole thing, and focusing on the social horror V5 was promissing and didn't deliver,
but I'd be fine if he finally blew the whistle about VtM devs being incapable of doing it, and just turn the game into an action battle royale rpg with proper mechanics to back it up

Well, they did not fail that design choice, except for the Sabbat. Other sects still avoided violent resolutions of any kind of conflict, and Camarila or even Anarch combat heavy games were always a rare sight.
The most combat heavy edition was 2nd, basically superheroes/antiheroes with fangs. Then they had the classy, restrained, deeply detailed and Masquerade-heavy Revised focused on 4D political supernatural chess and House of Cards style games, with an occasional violence, except again for the Sabbat where violence was not only allowed by STs but expected from the players. Still, even the Sabbat was 'civilized' and political, most of the time with all the flashy occult stuff downgraded to edgy chainsaws. Revised literally combined the best of both worlds, although it was Revised that removed the 2nd edition 'everything is possible' with the most rigidly written specifics, like sect specific clans, bloodlines, disciplines, social, political and occult taboos, etc. For some reason most of the players love this one the most. Personally, I prefer v20 and whatever brings the expansion of metaplot to the V5.

If I want a vampiric action RPG, 2nd edition is made for that.

how did they all manage to go to the old world to have a big war? you guessed it, the mechanics still don't explain how they having such an easy time moving around with weapons while they can't use technology and the government is hunting them down

BJD perfectly explains all these things. Again, so many arguments against the metaplot developments here come from lacking of nuance of the Middle East/Eastern Europe/Africa as regions, and the conflicts plaguing those in particular.

It all starts with the operation Iraqi Freedom, when the majority of Sabbat across the West managed to move to middle east among private contractors as well as regular duty soldiers. Then, since 2004 (BJD events and start of Civil war of the sabbat), it was all open conflict across dozens of countries will countless groups and organizations involved on numerous sides. Syria, Turkish-Kurdish conflict, Iraq, Palestine, Arabic Spring, Guaddafi, Libya, Mali, Yemen, Georgia, Crimea & Donbass, Sudan, right freaking now - Nagorno-Karabakh in Armenia/Azerbaijan and Tigray crisis in Ethiopia. Countless other minor conflict zones. In all of these conflicts, all kinds of war crimes were and are committed now, with proxy forces and all kinds of mercs and PMCs involved who couldn't care less about any kind of ethics or honour; counter-intelligence efforts, massive disinfo campaigns and desperate attempts to cover one's side crimes and expose the enemy's by any means necessary. It's not a conventional conflict with clearly defined frontlines and allegiances, it's an absolute mess. It is a place of the biggest humanitarian disaster of our time. No better place to cover Masquerade-shattering events because nobody cares about it. Government hunting them? what government? There is no government capable of sufficiently conducting a monster-hunting campaign in the regions because quite often the difference between humans and monsters is gone. Most of the monsters are there for oil, land or faith, and a few - for blood.
And the worst part is that the rest of the world has grown dumb on all the blood and warfare, of all the terrible news coming from there. Besides, isolationism is a hell of a drug, and unfortunately is on the rise nowadays. Now, with this freaking pandemic on top of it all.

But yeah, do go on how 'there is war but the gov-t is hunting vampires'. One thing is investigating supernatural occurances in the middle of Western Europe and completely another trying to do it in Rojava or Donbass.

Yes, they totally used it (Beckoning/Gehenna) as a metaplot-shaking tool, it's obvious, afaik no one at WW even tried to deny it. Did it fit? Also 100% yes. If, of course, you do any kind of research.

[CTPhipps]

Never really had characters that powerful (apart from Transylvania Chronicles or Giovanni Chronicles end characters, but they tend to be retired as those arcs end.)

I admit, it works very well for Elders and I mostly used them for Transylvania Chronicles and Giovanni Chronicles Sabbat.