Ghouls/Blood Bond - Willingness?

[jrichview]

I've seen a lot of discussion about ghouls, but not much specifically about this question: does a "victim" have to be willing to become blood bound / a ghoul or can they be tricked into it?

I am running a REVISED game, and I have one player that really wants to explore creating ghouls and blood bound animals and people.

ALSO: any recommendations for how to determine if an animal would want to taste offered vitae?

[CTPhipps]

Under 5th Edition rules, they have to drink your blood directly from the vein instead of being put into bottled water or something. So its a lot harder to trick someone into being a ghoul.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Under 5th Edition rules, they have to drink your blood directly from the vein instead of being put into bottled water or something. So its a lot harder to trick someone into being a ghoul.

This is absolutely fucking madness, Might as well call it Vampire: We're Vampires.


Now, for the OP
The General assumption is that most ghouls are entirely ignorant of what they are. Which means the vampires snuck it to them somehow, and not all vampires are -obfuscate- ninjas who can drop cold blood into the mouth of a sleeping victim, or slight-of-hand fiends who can sneak it in, or kink monsters who can get someone into it. Vitae lasts for a short duration outside of the body. So you can't spike the wine and send it from France to Russia, but you could mix it in just before the meeting.

Oh yeah and Vitae is fantastic stuff. I can't remember if it says animals will seek it out (if they're not already inclined to drink easily accessible blood that is) but if they've had a taste, they'll want more.

[MalkSam]

This is absolutely fucking madness, Might as well call it Vampire: We're Vampires.

You can still Dominate/persuade/whatever people into drinking Vitae.

This change was a pretty well-deserved nerf because ghouls were a huge benefit with a negligible upkeep. Letting literally any Kindred blood bond someone by way of a drop of blood in a drink is too powerful, as both V5 and V20 allow the bond to eventually become strong enough to be near impregnable. It makes sense to have the bond be difficult to start.

[MyWifeIsScary]

You can still Dominate/persuade/whatever people into drinking Vitae.

This is a stupid strategy, and you know it.

This change was a pretty well-deserved nerf because ghouls were a huge benefit with a negligible upkeep. Letting literally any Kindred blood bond someone by way of a drop of blood in a drink is too powerful, as both V5 and V20 allow the bond to eventually become strong enough to be near impregnable. It makes sense to have the bond be difficult to start.

Ghouls are reckless junkies that need a balancing act lest they kill eachother out of jealousy, lest their friends and family comes to rescue them, lest they find trouble for you, and a host of other problems. The blood bond hardly more overpowered than cold, hard, cash in any case. It just sounds like you're playing Ghouls in a way they weren't intended.

[Gryffon15]

I’m not overly familiar with V5 details so forgive me on that account, so I’ll reply to the best of my ability regarding ghouls in V20 and prior.

(Also Ghouls: Fatal Addiction is a great resource for this)

Anyway, ghouls do not need to be willing to become ghouls and all it takes is a single drought of vitae to become a ghoul and begin the process of the blood bond, although this takes three separate and distinct drinks to solidify into a total viniculum.

As far as animals and unknowing humans, despite what might be imagined, vitae is actually incredible inticing. It would take an extreme effort of willpower to resist drinking something laced with vitae and straining every last drop from it. This is partially because vitae is mystically compelling but also because it is a drug which induces a sensation of orgasmic euphoria in those who partake in it.

[CTPhipps]

Uh, most ghouls know EXACTLY who their masters are. That's why they protect you in the day. They're just addicted slaves who can't rat you out or betray you.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Uh, most ghouls know EXACTLY who their masters are. That's why they protect you in the day. They're just addicted slaves who can't rat you out or betray you.

Ghouls know they're infatuated with someone. That does not mean they know you're their undead lord full of tasty. And define betrayal? Sure, they're not killing you, but killing your number 1 ghoul out of jealousy? That's a betrayal of trust at least.

[CTPhipps]

Ghouls know they're infatuated with someone. That does not mean they know you're their undead lord full of tasty. And define betrayal? Sure, they're not killing you, but killing your number 1 ghoul out of jealousy? That's a betrayal of trust at least.

I very much would want a ghoul that would know I'm a corpse in the daytime and will explode if they open the curtains. Oh and to kill anyone who flashes an FBI badge and is carrying a stake.

[Haquim]

I've seen a lot of discussion about ghouls, but not much specifically about this question: does a "victim" have to be willing to become blood bound / a ghoul or can they be tricked into it?

I am running a REVISED game, and I have one player that really wants to explore creating ghouls and blood bound animals and people.

ALSO: any recommendations for how to determine if an animal would want to taste offered vitae?

You can FORCE someone to become a ghoul, just feed them your blood 3 times. No consent is needed but obviously the way things may work out varies wildly.

[Haquim]

You can still Dominate/persuade/whatever people into drinking Vitae.

This change was a pretty well-deserved nerf because ghouls were a huge benefit with a negligible upkeep. Letting literally any Kindred blood bond someone by way of a drop of blood in a drink is too powerful, as both V5 and V20 allow the bond to eventually become strong enough to be near impregnable. It makes sense to have the bond be difficult to start.

It's also a pretty huge boon for those who want to drink blood from other vampires but don't want the side effect of becoming blood bound to them.

That said a suggestion: don't try to change what cannot be changed.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I very much would want a ghoul that would know I'm a corpse in the daytime and will explode if they open the curtains. Oh and to kill anyone who flashes an FBI badge and is carrying a stake.

You know, I genuinely think that, when you write stuff like this, you're roleplaying a game master trying to bluff someone into something stupid. But then I remember you've probably got at least 20 years on me (assuming you didn't start playing vampire in before your teens) and we're on a forum and you're disagreeing with me so you should be giving me a serious argument.

Now look, this is really more a concern for your character, not a player who may be new and has yet to consider the prospect of how vampires sleep. But for a character who wants to make it past fledgling and has recieved appropriate tutalage under a sire:

If you sleep in a place where opening the curtains would kill you: you're an idiot.
If you sleep in a place where someone will likely find your undead body: you're an idiot.
If your security force needs to know you're a vampire, your security plan needs work. A few trusted individuals who know cannot provide adequate security all-day round and still offer you night time service. A larger security force who know is simply too much liability. Ghouls are the most dangerous vampire hunters, by far. And if they know where the juice is from, they're far, far, far more dangerous when relationships sour.
If someone flashes an FBI badge and a stake, they're not FBI. They're idiots.

[Gryffon15]

I think it was pretty clearly a joke, the whole FBI with a stake thing. That’s more Monster of the Week then Hunters Hunted.

That said, sure there is room for more serious discussion here, I just hope that we’ve answered OP’s question before we get into the weeds with it.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I think it was pretty clearly a joke, the whole FBI with a stake thing. That’s more Monster of the Week then Hunters Hunted.
.

The FBI part? Sure. Probably a joke. The rest? Seems he's serious.

[CTPhipps]

You know, I genuinely think that, when you write stuff like this, you're roleplaying a game master trying to bluff someone into something stupid. But then I remember you've probably got at least 20 years on me (assuming you didn't start playing vampire in before your teens) and we're on a forum and you're disagreeing with me so you should be giving me a serious argument.

Now look, this is really more a concern for your character, not a player who may be new and has yet to consider the prospect of how vampires sleep. But for a character who wants to make it past fledgling and has recieved appropriate tutalage under a sire:

If you sleep in a place where opening the curtains would kill you: you're an idiot.
If you sleep in a place where someone will likely find your undead body: you're an idiot.
If your security force needs to know you're a vampire, your security plan needs work. A few trusted individuals who know cannot provide adequate security all-day round and still offer you night time service. A larger security force who know is simply too much liability. Ghouls are the most dangerous vampire hunters, by far. And if they know where the juice is from, they're far, far, far more dangerous when relationships sour.
If someone flashes an FBI badge and a stake, they're not FBI. They're idiots.

No, I was using hyperbole.

You see, when I say something like, "FBI agents show up at your doorstep with a stake" I am using the juxtaposition of them being FBI agents and a stake to let you know that these particular FBI agents are hunters.

Similar, the idea of curtains is indicating that an ill-informed ghoul is useless because they are a person who doesn't know that you are a vampire and do to their lack of knowledge they pose a threat to you.

Also, it may fall to the ghoul to move you during the day for some reason. Because, say the house is on fire due to one of your rivals setting it on fire.

In simple terms, an ill-informed ghoul is worse than useless. Also a vampire without a ghoul is vulnerable in ways that one with a ghoul simply is not. The whole purpose of having a retainer is something that can compensate for your weaknesses during the day as well as handle mundane mortal business that a vampire cannot due to their incacapitation. For huge number of vampires, it doesn't matter if they have Wake With Morning's Freshness. They will have their head cut off or burn to death without ever knowing their attack came because they did not have a properly trained servant.

The best part of having a ghoul is tht they are the exception to the rule of the Masquerade. You can speak freely in front of them, take them with you into Elyisum, and send them on dirty business. They're also completely disposable.