Ghouls/Blood Bond - Willingness?

[Gryffon15]

Sure, but even then you have to acknowledge that the general point does stand: a ghoul who knows about their domitor’s vampiric condition is in a better place to protect their domitor from the vulnerabilities of that condition.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Sure, but even then you have to acknowledge that the general point does stand: a ghoul who knows about their domitor’s vampiric condition is in a better place to protect their domitor from the vulnerabilities of that condition.

But, in keeping with the thread, how many of your ghouls do you want to know about such stuff. You'll want your closest attendant or two, sure, but in most other cases, you absolutely do not want your ghoul knowing. Especially before the second or third drink.

[CTPhipps]

But, in keeping with the thread, how many of your ghouls do you want to know about such stuff. You'll want your closest attendant or two, sure, but in most other cases, you absolutely do not want your ghoul knowing. Especially before the second or third drink.

How many ghouls do you think the average vampire can maintain?

A blood point a month is not so bad but most vampires aren't going to have more than a handful at best.

[MyWifeIsScary]

How many ghouls do you think the average vampire can maintain?

A blood point a month is not so bad but most vampires aren't going to have more than a handful at best.

First; Blood bonds are very easy to maintain, not requiring a point. You give em a full point when you think they'll need it, or as a reward. Using this strategy, you can have many retainers if you're up for a bit of micro and aren't causing a scene with the rest of the kindred pop. Of course, having many bound to you means you must have additional methods to ease the management: Resources, Dominate, Obfuscate, a working cult.. Methods available to neonates.

As for full ghouls. That of course depends on your blood supply and your commitment, and your blood supply improves as you establish yourself. I mean if you wanted to push things the limit is really high. But I imagine most settle with less.

Ideally, the vampire is good at finance, or they have a ghoul that's good at finance. That financial ghoul can be kept ignorant. Two, perhaps three close aids in the know will be optimal. A dog is nice. Blood may be granted to Allies or Contacts but really you should be using cash or influence or something else. Anything more than that is either the vampire having fun or things are really bad.

[MalkSam]

This is a stupid strategy, and you know it.

I don't think I do because I agree with the nerf.

Ghouls are reckless junkies that need a balancing act lest they kill eachother out of jealousy, lest their friends and family comes to rescue them, lest they find trouble for you, and a host of other problems. The blood bond hardly more overpowered than cold, hard, cash in any case. It just sounds like you're playing Ghouls in a way they weren't intended.

Even if I assume you're right about the other stuff, vampire blood is significantly more available to a vampire than money. This is a really wonky equivalency.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I don't think I do because I agree with the nerf.

Isn't that irrelevant?

Even if I assume you're right about the other stuff, vampire blood is significantly more available to a vampire than money. This is a really wonky equivalency.

I am right about such stuff. It's in the books.
Vampires are very capable of breaking into the higher spheres of money. I get that a lot of players don't because they want to be scrappy underdogs for the story, but your coterie should be able to go from 0 to 4 in a relatively short span of time if they try in, at most, a couple of years, and 4 dots on an individual level a little later. Once they have 4 dots, it becomes significantly easier to use money for stuff rather than blood bonds.

[Shakanaka]

Wasn't tricking Zillah into drinking his blood a way Caine got her to become his ghoul then childer after? The whole point of the bloodbond being developed if we go by this is that its something you secretly douse or generally sneak it in to be ingested somehow. It served as a buffer and softener-upper to get the potential ghoul having loyal feelings to you before giving them the last drink to reveal your true nature to them. The first swig you give to a mortal isn't enough to ensure they won't get spooked that your a vampire and begin running; causing you to have to off them as to not disturb the Masquerade or else both YOU and the guy were trying to ghoul get perished by the Prince and his forces in the city.

It didn't need a nerf for the subtle investment you had to do to curate nothing going wrong in the ghouling process. Vitae is still Vitae and having it to only ghoul someone through your wrist is just another stupid thing V5 has brought. Anyway this is all irrelevant since OP is asking about Revised.

[MalkSam]

Isn't that irrelevant?

No? If it were irrelevant, I wouldn't have brought it up. The Blood Bond is, and always has been, a way for even the lowliest and penniless vampire to get a mortal to be an ever-faithful retainer for them. It's extremely potent and only a small subset of strong-willed mortals can break it. It should have a barrier to entry, and it's not even as if this barrier to entry is particularly high. Cloud Memory is Dominate 1.

I am right about such stuff. It's in the books.

Are you doing the "apply non-V5 material to V5 as if it were ironclad canon" thing again?

Vampires are very capable of breaking into the higher spheres of money. I get that a lot of players don't because they want to be scrappy underdogs for the story, but your coterie should be able to go from 0 to 4 in a relatively short span of time if they try in, at most, a couple of years, and 4 dots on an individual level a little later. Once they have 4 dots, it becomes significantly easier to use money for stuff rather than blood bonds.

So you can just use money, then. It's just as possible for an ST to screw you over for relying on money as they can for relying on the blood bond.

[MyWifeIsScary]

No? If it were irrelevant, I wouldn't have brought it up. The Blood Bond is, and always has been, a way for even the lowliest and penniless vampire to get a mortal to be an ever-faithful retainer for them. It's extremely potent and only a small subset of strong-willed mortals can break it. It should have a barrier to entry, and it's not even as if this barrier to entry is particularly high. Cloud Memory is Dominate 1.

-A way for even the lowliest and penniless vampire to get a mortal to be an ever faithful retainer for them
-It should have a barrier to entry
You can pick one.

Are you doing the "apply non-V5 material to V5 as if it were ironclad canon" thing again?

Bruv, this is a Revised thread.

[Shakanaka]

The Blood Bond is, and always has been, a way for even the lowliest and penniless vampire to get a mortal to be an ever-faithful retainer for them.

So what? Having a Ghoul alone isn't the be-all or end-all whatsoever. A high gen and penniless Vampire as you say in this scenario gets a Ghoul, big whoop. The Ghoul they have will probably be some manipulated college student or someone easily gullible since neonates unless having an apt for it, aren't that good at manipulation to acquire ghouls with a better base of useful skills. Even then this young Vampire has to devise ways for the prospect Ghoul to somehow drink their blood without shearing the Masquerade, which is different for the aforementioned fact as I said before; generally just starting neonates aren't good at manipulation. This was the barrier for entry for it. If you were successful and got through completing the Ghouling process without any mishaps? Good for you, you're rewarded for it. Botch or just generally gaffe? Now you have to find a way to untangle your mess.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Also of interest to the OP jrichview
(this is all off the top of my head)

-There are two level 1 rituals for storing blood and Vitae/just vitae for long periods without spoiling. One involves jars, the other involves absorbing the blood into solid objects. This blood still fosters blood bonds. (Using this blood to embrace is a bit of a grey area; RAW you can probably do it, RAI I don't know. The Tremere somehow preserved blood for themselves to become vampires, but vampires would be pulling off mass-diablerie shenanigans if they could do this so easily)

-There's also another ritual called engaging the vessel of transference. When someone holds the enchanted jar, the blood inside the vessel is switched with the blood of the person holding the vessel. A good sneaky way to both blood bond people and to get a sample of their blood for nefarious rituals.

-There is a level 1 setite ritual that blends Vitae with magic beer. There are no blood bonds, but drinking a pint of beer gives mortals and ghouls a point of blood; it can be used to sustain them. The benefit for vampires is just that they drink beer. This might just be a v20 thing tho (but V20 basically is revised so...)

-Another low level V20 ritual (for New agers) You put your blood into one of those healing crystals that new religious movements and alternative medicine types like so much. When someone meditates over the crystal, the blood gets into them, and a bond is formed.

[jrichview]

I love this thread! Puzzled why I didn't get notified of all these replies. I thought I subscribed to the post. Will investigate.

I know it digressed a bit, but lacking other experienced VTM players to kibbitz with, this thread is the kind of thing I needed.

The player I mentioned just created a ghoul in my game last night, impulsively. I actually just posted questions about that on another thread. I knew he had been interested in ghouling, and actually I'm fine with it. The prince of my city is a little more progressive than average (for reasons I won't delve into), and doesn't usually restrict this sort of thing as a rule of thumb. But you know when one player gets something the others are likely to get jealous and want their own. Obviously I don't want this coterie to become an army of NPCs that make GMing a nightmare. I plan for this player to learn the meaning of the term "high maintenance" - though I need to think in more detail how exactly I will do that.

Anyway, for anyone interested, hope to see you comment on my other thread.