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Real Set and Set the Vampire

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  • Real Set and Set the Vampire

    Was Set the entity who influenced religion of ancient Egypt or he just use it and was an impostor, like, for example, gangrel Odin? How do you solve this in your game?

  • #2
    Set's the Legit entity of egypt, I think, but his story isn't (completely). IE, he became a God after he became a vampire.

    Set the God was very popular in the earlier periods, and reviled in the later periods. I believe this is mostly because he was a God of foreigners and foreigners were fucking shit up for locals. I'm not an egyptologist or anything like that. Perhaps these foreigners included the other antes. Apophis may be where he went wrong and accepted the Wyrm, or when he became a vampire, I'm not sure.
    Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 11-15-2020, 07:06 AM.


    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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    • #3
      Set has some very interesting similarities to Indo-european storm gods, but he seems to be a far older god. I sometimes wonder if at some point a foreign gods likeness was overlaid on the native Set.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        Set the God was very popular in the earlier periods, and reviled in the later periods. I believe this is mostly because he was a God of foreigners and foreigners were fucking shit up for locals.
        To put this in perspective: in the real world, the establishment of the modern state of Egypt in the 1950's was the first time Egypt had been independently ruled by Egyptians in 2500 years. You don't need the God of foreigners to be a horrible vampire for his popularity to tank with that kind of track record.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by trueann View Post
          Was Set the entity who influenced religion of ancient Egypt or he just use it and was an impostor, like, for example, gangrel Odin? How do you solve this in your game?
          I think the implication is he's the one who inspired the religious Set.

          However, you can go anyway you want with it.

          Personally, my idea is that Set and his family were gods and that Set was Embraced by Typhon.

          Because back then, gods could become vampires.

          It's the same with Mithras in my game. Mithras is a god of the Sun who got embraced by Ventrue as a fuck-you to religion.

          It just backfired on Ventrue because Mithras is an uncontrollable wild card in the Jyhad.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • #6
            "I think the implication is he's the one who inspired the religious Set" , looks like it, but I prefer him as an umpostor who just use the religion.

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            • #7
              if the vampire isn't the god, the vampire is still older than the god, so...imagine being called the impostor of someone millenia younger than you


              -

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              • #8
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post


                Personally, my idea is that Set and his family were gods and that Set was Embraced by Typhon.
                .
                It's good that this is your own headcannon (and you've pointed it out! Well done!) , because A really old egyptian god being the child of a figure from a much younger greek myth is really bothersome and'll set any Settite into a rage. (also I get witches of echidna flashbacks; So much potential, such a nasty, abhorent, collosal failure. )
                But also, yeah, if we ignore precise names and see things as 'masks' of whatever then it works. Typhon works as Caine/Apep; Zues works as God/Ra. Echidna's your lilith (Still not justifying the WoE and I'm still Triggered. )

                You imagine the lesser "Gods" as really fucking powerful mages, and it might be canon.


                Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  It's good that this is your own headcannon (and you've pointed it out! Well done!) , because A really old egyptian god being the child of a figure from a much younger greek myth is really bothersome and'll set any Settite into a rage. (also I get witches of echidna flashbacks; So much potential, such a nasty, abhorent, collosal failure. )
                  But also, yeah, if we ignore precise names and see things as 'masks' of whatever then it works. Typhon works as Caine/Apep; Zues works as God/Ra. Echidna's your lilith (Still not justifying the WoE and I'm still Triggered. )

                  You imagine the lesser "Gods" as really fucking powerful mages, and it might be canon.
                  It's not my personal headcanon, FYI.

                  It's actually what the Followers of Set believe. They believe Set is the first vampire but they also believe that he was a god who was Embraced.

                  So was the rest of his family.

                  Typhon is also the name given to the vampire who Embraced Osiris.

                  Because contradictory ideas like that happen in mythology.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #10
                    Typhon embraced Osiris. Whomever embraced Set is unknown, but Set as a neonate was very clearly much more powerful than his older brother. Even though Osiris had been a vampire for longer. Set is generally considered to be an Antediluvian, and Osiris is generally not regarded as having been one.

                    Typhon was heavily implied to have been an alias for Brujah in the old days. Later it seems to have been Troile.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
                      Typhon embraced Osiris. Whomever embraced Set is unknown, but Set as a neonate was very clearly much more powerful than his older brother. Even though Osiris had been a vampire for longer. Set is generally considered to be an Antediluvian, and Osiris is generally not regarded as having been one.

                      Typhon was heavily implied to have been an alias for Brujah in the old days. Later it seems to have been Troile.
                      I thought Typhon was a name for Lasombra.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #12
                        Set is one of the trickiest figures in WoD lore for me to square, right up there with Fenris and Zapasathura, but I’ll try to share me thoughts here and hopefully that will be helpful. For clarity, when I say “Set” I am referring to the theological figure and when I say “Sutekh” I am referring to the vampire.

                        There’s a lot of ways to go here and I think that the Multi-Resonance Layered Reality is useful to invoke here because there’s a lot going on. You have the gods of Egypt who need to be addressed for Mummy. You have Sutekh, Osiris, & co. who also need to be addressed for vampire. You have both gods and pre-dynastic rulers. So, whatever is going on here, it is happening in the time of active layers, before the Collapse of Layers (the Flood, Gauntlet, Veil, etc.).

                        First we have these figures as existing in the pre-dynastic time of gods. Geb and Nut pass down kingship to the next generation. Osiris and Set both covet the kingship and the classic contests ensue. In this era they may have been Awakened, Gods, or Humans of Legend; they were probably all of these across several layers of reality.

                        During this contest you have a foreigner enter and embrace Osiris and Sutekh gets embraced under further unknown circumstances. Conflict happens and after Sutekh destroys Osiris it requires Isis and Nephtys to resurrect him alongside the Rite of Life (and perhaps Anubis). This implies that they may have been Awakened, perhaps even Awakened cooperating with Changing Breeds so as to combat the corruption of Sutekh. Then begins further conflict. Perhaps Sutekh is driven away by Osiris and/or Horus so that the antediluvian can be present for the fall of Enoch but by the time that the Second City has fallen Osiris (and Horus perhaps) have entered a death that lets Sutekh claim power before the return of Horus to create dynastic Egypt and begin the constant battle over Egypt between the Followers of Set and Osirian League. Perhaps at some point in all of this Sutekh stops combatting Apophis and makes a deal with the Serpent to gain the power needed to rule for a time (and exile the Silent Striders). Yet even this is a somewhat messy syncretism.

                        Much of this is my own head canon trying to synthesize canon material with real world history and theology.

                        We still have mysteries such as the vampiric thread. Who was Typhon, the sire of Osiris? This was likely a later title applied to the figure, given its Greek origins, but what does it refer to. Is it one of the Drowned? Is it an antediluvian such as Troile or Ventru? Is it Cain in disguise? Is it Sutekh in disguise? Is it one of the second generation, known or unknown? Is it a distinct vampiric progenitor? Many of these same questions can be applied to Sutekh and the nature of their embrace.

                        I personally use the head canon that Typhon was the later applied title of one of the second generation, though I won’t go into a ton of detail here, but it’s related to my ideas about the second generation in general. Perhaps there’s also a Laibon like situation with the Settites, but even if that is the case, Sutekh (whether they are true Set or not) is either of the third generation or an equivalent level of power. Regardless, for their own reasons, Typhon (or a similar figure) also embraced Sutekh. What followed was a competition over the fate of Egypt which would reflect spiritual and cosmic competitions over reality itself. Osiris representing spiritual balance and order of the world while Sutekh represented both corruption and a gnostic truth beyond this world’s order.

                        So my timeline goes something vaguely like this: somehow the generation of Osiris and Set come to an age of rulership (whether because of Isis’ machination or inherited from Geb and Nut). Osiris is chosen to be the ruler and Set to be the warrior, but Set is proud and rejects this order. Osiris is eventually forced to exile his quarrelsome brother and while Set is in the desert, eventually a mysterious vampire, later called Typhon, arrives and embraces Osiris. Later, after being embraced Sutekh returns to Egypt. He claims power in a coup, destroys Osiris, and sends his sisters into flights. Isis alongside Nephtys (as well as Horus the Elder and Anubis perhaps) recovers enough of Osiris to cast the Spell of Life. Osiris (and Horus the Elder) battle Sutekh and with the power of Ma’at and Earth, Sutekh is once again forced into exile. Osiris, Isis, and Horus (either the elder or younger) claim power in Egypt and soon after, once Sutekh had returned to the First City, if indeed he was a Cainite, the ancient time ended and the Gauntlet rose/Layers collapsed/Flood arrived. A great deal of time later, while Osiris and Horus the Younger while dead (as Reborn with cycles of life), Sutekh returned to Egypt with his childer after the fall of the Second City. Sutekh had at this point abandoned the battle with Apophis in favor of seeking power and gnostic truths, making a pact with the Night Serpent. Using that power, Sutekh warred against the Silent Striders and cast them out of Egypt, claiming the land as his own. With the Striders exiled and the Followers of Set supreme in power, he ruled for a time. Eventually though Horus the Younger was reborn and as pharaoh he battled Sutekh for rule over Egypt in a number of wars and contests. Eventually Sutekh was forced into the shadows, unable to rule openly, and perhaps wounded and sent into torpor. Whatever the case, it was the mutually scarring battles of Horus the Younger and Sutekh that weakened the two enough to allow the Egyptian nation to rise on its own legs, led by human history.

                        This is all based upon my own understanding and interpretation of many distinct parts of canon, history, and theology and based upon my own preferences and interpretations and additions. It gives me something to work with and I hope it interests others as well.

                        (PS. I reference Horus the Elder and Horus the Younger: this is how I fectify Horus. Horus the Elder is the Horus of the Silent Striders, the brother of Osiris and Set who as a Changing Breed would walk alongside them but he outlived by then both after his first participation in Osiris and Set’s feud. Horus the Younger is the Horus of Mummy, the son of Osiris and Isis, who slain by Sutekh received the Spell of Life and became general of the Reborn and legendary Pharaoh of Egypt, warring with Sutekh for the fate of sacred Khem. This is the abbreviated version as these parts of the stories would require a deep dive into WtA or Mummy rather then this which was relatively VtM focused.)

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                        • #13
                          I admit this may be my inner Dreamspeaker coming out but I generally think that the Spirits of the Umbra are LESS LIKELY to be the "real gods" than vampires.

                          Why?

                          Because as any Theruge or Dreamspeaker knows, spirits are LIARS.

                          The Umbra is also very subject to the interpretation of the people involved.

                          So, you can meet Odin, Zeus, or Michael in the Umbra but he's very likely just an avatar of a more primordial "Skyfather" esque Jupiter Celestine.

                          Same with Set.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #14
                            Aye, though I’ve said before that I think most beings should be treated as being ‘real’ on their own terms.

                            Yes there is a vampire, changing breed, awakened, dream god, fallen, and spirit of every layer for each divine figure in human history. This doesn’t mean that each of these aren’t being honest and real on their own terms.

                            It doesn’t mean that their isn’t some ‘true’ force of these figures as well, existing beyond the places that people know to look for and acting in accordance to their own unique and somewhat alien principles.

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                            • #15
                              In another recent thread I mentioned that one thing that's important about Set is that he's not the only one claiming he's the Egyptian deity Set. In the Underworld there's an ancient wraith who claims to be Osiris (that Osiris) and says that the vampire calling himself Set is his brother, Set, the same brother who killed him. And then you have the ancient mummy Horus who claims that Osiris was his father and the vampire Set is his uncle. There's others too (some kind of wraith/god in the Underworld named Anubis, and the ancient mage Isis).

                              So you've got this group of people who hate each other and want to kill one another but are all backing up one another's claims. It would be very easy for Horus to say, "No, the vampire calling himself Set isn't actually my uncle, just someone who usurped his name," but he's also reinforcing the story.

                              There's a few options of course. This is the World of Darkness so maybe it's a conspiracy. These are all individuals who took the names from Egyptian mythology and are all trying to kill one another, but also aren't willing to out one another either. Or maybe they're all telling the truth, and Egyptian mythology is simply a garbled historical account of the war between the vampire named Set, and his brother Osiris (who's now a wraith) and his nephew Horus (who's now a mummy). Maybe they're telling the truth, but there was also a group of spirits and these people were named after them and then their lives (and unlives) played out an eerily similar manner to the mythology.

                              And, the Umbra being the Umbra, there are definitely a group of spirits who honestly believe themselves the "real" gods of Egypt, and will insist that everyone else is a bunch of imposters and frauds.

                              In fact all of these could be true if you decide to go with Demon the Fallen's take that there's multiple metalayers of reality all piling down on top of another.

                              Personally, I tend to go with the "easiest" answer, which is that Egyptian mythology was based on the vampiric war between Set and Osiris and others. The mortal accounts aren't entirely factual and there's a lot of stuff that was added or intentionally removed, but generally speaking Set, Osiris, Horus, Isis, etc are all who they claim to be, and their actions formed the seed for stories that were passed down with them acting as gods.

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