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  • #46
    It's fine! I was starting to worry I'd missed something important.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
      So? It still wouldn't mean the Egyptian pantheons wouldn't not be older
      I think you miss my point in that in V:TM there's no consensus. Caine and Abel are older than the Egyptian pantheon because they're the 3rd and 4th human beings, predating all human religion. It's not a matter of mythology, archaeology, or faith but a story passed down about real events. Much like Werewolf, human religion is unimportant save as an interpretation of the "truth."

      Demiurge, Sol Invictus, or Helios/Jupiter Celestine being the identity of God. It doesn't matter.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #48
        Yeah I have to call cap on that. We're discussing this on terms of oWoD, not VTM alone because Set (the Antediluvian one) has literally interacted with multiple supernatural splats at once before- so you can't pull out "we're talking about a single line" factor argument. When discussing him, the allowance to bring in other splats is allowable since there is a precedent regarding points in his backstory. Set (the Antediluvian) can't be Set (the God) because he's a 3rd gen descended from Caine; and Caine couldn't possibly predate Egyptian Gods when they were already conceived as the Egyptian religion was already active and in full effect before the proto-Hebrews began developing monotheism from the semi-polytheistic theological doctrines they had. Also you can't say VTM doesn't have Consensus because VTM is still part of the oWoD universe despite being a different "gameline"; even with that to boot, we have an old benchmark in the form of Lilith who was, you guessed it, an Awakened (Mage). Not only that to add further; the whole point of the Tremere shifting to Vampirism was because they made a prediction that the changing norms of Paradigm will render their Effects and Rotes to be Vulgar.

        So yes, Consensus is a thing in VTM- that means the "Earth-Bones" reality can't be ignored; that means humans went down regular evolution and that conflicts with creationist lore. There is no way Humanity just came from Adam and Eve only as VTM proports. Not only that you talk of Werewolf and in that "gameline" alone one of the oldest splats (physically at least) in oWoD are in the form of the Mokole; which were active when Dinosaurs were around. That puts them about in the ballpark between the Triassic and Jurassic periods. You're perfectly right when saying the shape-changers (Fera) see human religion as unimportant because they don't have the correct interpretation from the converse league of the Fera; who have I said before, largely predate human or the development of all these religions.

        One point that was brought up in this site before concerning on of the Mummy books was that different God(s) had influence in a certainty metaphysical geographical reason that was their domain; from this I believe that certain human populations as I mentioned before gave birth to these God(s) through the formation of religion via Consensus willworking. This would explain why there are many God(s) in this franchise, but for some reason they don't interact. One example being how the August Personage of Jade did his stuff in the East Asian region and why the Abrahamic God in the Middle-East did his stuff but their was no interaction between them. Or how there is no reaction from the older God(s) such as Zeus and Jupitar reacting to the new developing Abrahamic God in the Middle-East. Actually its even more wonderous to even think the Abrahamic God COULD have been the chief deity in the Middle-East when it was a Mesopotamian God called An (its to note that all Abrahamic religions copied a bunch of stuff and concepts from old Mesopotamian stuff when it was being developed).

        Still this tangent is circular because like I mentioned before, its ludicrous to believe Set is a God when he clearly isn't- just taking an analogue of one his native Gods after being embraced. It's silly to think a Vampire can be a God, much less a 3rd gen even with their "God-like" powers.


        Jade Kingdom Warrior

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        • #49
          Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
          Thanks, but since Saturno doesn't want to do it, I'm not sure there's much point. I think we've also come to some level of agreement that imperialism from that era was an influence on fascism.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I think you miss my point in that in V:TM there's no consensus. Caine and Abel are older than the Egyptian pantheon because they're the 3rd and 4th human beings, predating all human religion. It's not a matter of mythology, archaeology, or faith but a story passed down about real events. Much like Werewolf, human religion is unimportant save as an interpretation of the "truth."

            Demiurge, Sol Invictus, or Helios/Jupiter Celestine being the identity of God. It doesn't matter.


            Except Saulot calls this out in the Transylvania chronicles. There were people... Even potentially vampires who predate caine. Of course that might be a lie considering who "translates" the tablet. But given that and the stuff some of the laibon argue for in the JHD. The First Murderer may just be another stolen title by a Vampire who ran away from giving up his powers.

            OF course then we have Demon the Fallen going "No... he's really caine" but then you have the issue of whether they have just been shaped by consensus as well...

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            • #51
              Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post

              Thanks, but since Saturno doesn't want to do it, I'm not sure there's much point. I think we've also come to some level of agreement that imperialism from that era was an influence on fascism.
              Shame.

              Would have been interesting.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                Yeah I have to call cap on that. We're discussing this on terms of oWoD, not VTM alone because Set (the Antediluvian one) has literally interacted with multiple supernatural splats at once before- so you can't pull out "we're talking about a single line" factor argument. When discussing him, the allowance to bring in other splats is allowable since there is a precedent regarding points in his backstory. Set (the Antediluvian) can't be Set (the God) because he's a 3rd gen descended from Caine; and Caine couldn't possibly predate Egyptian Gods when they were already conceived as the Egyptian religion was already active and in full effect before the proto-Hebrews began developing monotheism from the semi-polytheistic theological doctrines they had. Also you can't say VTM doesn't have Consensus because VTM is still part of the oWoD universe despite being a different "gameline"; even with that to boot, we have an old benchmark in the form of Lilith who was, you guessed it, an Awakened (Mage). Not only that to add further; the whole point of the Tremere shifting to Vampirism was because they made a prediction that the changing norms of Paradigm will render their Effects and Rotes to be Vulgar.

                So yes, Consensus is a thing in VTM- that means the "Earth-Bones" reality can't be ignored; that means humans went down regular evolution and that conflicts with creationist lore. There is no way Humanity just came from Adam and Eve only as VTM proports. Not only that you talk of Werewolf and in that "gameline" alone one of the oldest splats (physically at least) in oWoD are in the form of the Mokole; which were active when Dinosaurs were around. That puts them about in the ballpark between the Triassic and Jurassic periods. You're perfectly right when saying the shape-changers (Fera) see human religion as unimportant because they don't have the correct interpretation from the converse league of the Fera; who have I said before, largely predate human or the development of all these religions.

                One point that was brought up in this site before concerning on of the Mummy books was that different God(s) had influence in a certainty metaphysical geographical reason that was their domain; from this I believe that certain human populations as I mentioned before gave birth to these God(s) through the formation of religion via Consensus willworking. This would explain why there are many God(s) in this franchise, but for some reason they don't interact. One example being how the August Personage of Jade did his stuff in the East Asian region and why the Abrahamic God in the Middle-East did his stuff but their was no interaction between them. Or how there is no reaction from the older God(s) such as Zeus and Jupitar reacting to the new developing Abrahamic God in the Middle-East. Actually its even more wonderous to even think the Abrahamic God COULD have been the chief deity in the Middle-East when it was a Mesopotamian God called An (its to note that all Abrahamic religions copied a bunch of stuff and concepts from old Mesopotamian stuff when it was being developed).

                Still this tangent is circular because like I mentioned before, its ludicrous to believe Set is a God when he clearly isn't- just taking an analogue of one his native Gods after being embraced. It's silly to think a Vampire can be a God, much less a 3rd gen even with their "God-like" powers.
                I've speculated something similar to this since originally Yahweh was local god and explained that since most people believe in Yahweh in some shape or form today, the vampiric affliction holds without being vulgar. Things like the "first city" and the deluge maybe just local events.

                I do prefer the multiple origins for vampires myself, though, and that doesn't fully explain how ones that came from other sources survive without paradox. Perhaps it's just because of vampires own belief in the Caine myth and even a lot of the ones who might have a different origin believe in the Caine myth. Of course that doesn't cover the Setites, but if Set were a Mage that embraced himself, maybe his magic was so strong back then the magic still holds.

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                • #53
                  In my last mixed World of Darkness game, we had a Demon character talk about the past and a Changeling debate the origins of demons.

                  The Changeling said that since 3 billion people believe in the Abrahamic faith, the demons not only exist but have always existed and remember a past that previously didn't happen but has now.

                  The demon said that was stupid.



                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Only Mages suffer Paradox because they are directly influencing the Patterns of the Tellurium with their Awakened or Enlightened willworking. It's potency to shift the entirety of how the universe operates causes a steep reaction; of which no matter how potent the other splats can get and powers they can dispense, doesn't upset the Tellurium like what Mages, Crafts, and Technocrats can do. Even with the "Earth-Bones" (Earth-Bones to me is simply all living matter effecting the Consensus all at once, not just humans. Than means the little blade of grass, thermites in your floorboard, even to the smallest Prokaryotic cells, all contribute to the formation of a this "world constant") reality figure that features constants similar to our own IRL universe, the tabletop WoD one still is versed in peternaternal phenomenon- so Vampires not of the "Caine" Myth wouldn't be effected by Paradox because they don't conflict with the universe.

                    Barring that however Kindred numbers are so low I believe they barely snap a ripple in the Consensus at all, so just them believing in the Caine myth wouldn't be enough to justify why they don't suffer Paradox. Not only that Humans who practiced or practice some form of Abrahamic religion DO know about Caine, but not the fact that he's a Vampire. I know practically nobody where I live who is religious that asserts Cain from the Book of Genesis was turned into a Vampire at all. Its safe to say Vampires don't suffer Paradox... The only "splats" off my head that suffer from direct "Paradox degradation" are Chimera from Changeling (in the form of Banality), Familiars, and Bygones (I think? I forgot if Bygones suffer from Paradox).


                    Jade Kingdom Warrior

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      In my last mixed World of Darkness game, we had a Demon character talk about the past and a Changeling debate the origins of demons.

                      The Changeling said that since 3 billion people believe in the Abrahamic faith, the demons not only exist but have always existed and remember a past that previously didn't happen but has now.

                      The demon said that was stupid.


                      My Etherite mage thought changelings and Fallen looked functionally the same and had all sorts of theories on it.... My Pooka knows that Dreams are contraditory and symbolic. That Lies are Truth....and that the level of Fae for effecting Fallen is the same as any other Gallain...

                      But to get things back to Set.


                      The Question isn't whether Set is a god. He is. People worship him. That's really all there is to it. The living Pharoahs of Egypt were gods. God is... fairly worthless denominator its been used for everything from Awesome King to three roads meeting. Its a word that has become useless trying create a big tent for them.

                      The Question is whether he is the being from Egyptian Mythology and that has the issue that if he was actively being you know.. Set the vampire godking in predynastic Egypt then presumably the story of Set would be closer to what people thought about set in the Old Kingdom and the Earliest dynasties than post Hellenistic synchonization.

                      So Assuming relative truth of the Set/Osiris/Horus thing(notice those are the Greek names btw) We have a timeline of

                      -God war

                      -Humans write down a mythology that is complete at odds with any detail about the god war.

                      -Humans continue to change their beliefs

                      -Pyramids are built

                      -More drifting in mythology

                      -More drifting

                      -Egypt falls a couple of times

                      -One of those falls has people take over in the name of Set.

                      -Set the warrior god is established.

                      -There is backlash when Egypt kicks out foreginers

                      -More chaos in Egypt

                      -Alexander the Great takes over Egypt eventually

                      -His follower and Ancestor of Cleopatra, Ptolemy establishes the Final Egyptian Dynasty.

                      -Egyptian mythology actually comes to look like What the God war says happened.


                      (This is also the problem Noddism. It matches newer works more readily than older ones that supposedly were based on it.)

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
                        Only Mages suffer Paradox because they are directly influencing the Patterns of the Tellurium with their Awakened or Enlightened willworking. It's potency to shift the entirety of how the universe operates causes a steep reaction; of which no matter how potent the other splats can get and powers they can dispense, doesn't upset the Tellurium like what Mages, Crafts, and Technocrats can do. Even with the "Earth-Bones" (Earth-Bones to me is simply all living matter effecting the Consensus all at once, not just humans. Than means the little blade of grass, thermites in your floorboard, even to the smallest Prokaryotic cells, all contribute to the formation of a this "world constant") reality figure that features constants similar to our own IRL universe, the tabletop WoD one still is versed in peternaternal phenomenon- so Vampires not of the "Caine" Myth wouldn't be effected by Paradox because they don't conflict with the universe.

                        Barring that however Kindred numbers are so low I believe they barely snap a ripple in the Consensus at all, so just them believing in the Caine myth wouldn't be enough to justify why they don't suffer Paradox. Not only that Humans who practiced or practice some form of Abrahamic religion DO know about Caine, but not the fact that he's a Vampire. I know practically nobody where I live who is religious that asserts Cain from the Book of Genesis was turned into a Vampire at all. Its safe to say Vampires don't suffer Paradox... The only "splats" off my head that suffer from direct "Paradox degradation" are Chimera from Changeling (in the form of Banality), Familiars, and Bygones (I think? I forgot if Bygones suffer from Paradox).
                        IIRC bygones do suffer paradox, which is why I mentioned vampires not suffering it. I mean if a lone dragon or manticore gets hit with paradox, why not a vampire when there are so many more of them than dragons? Also it doesn't have to be that people believe in the Caine vampire myth, but they believe in Yahweh in some form. So if the curse did come from Yahweh (the bible does mention Caine was set with a mark), people's belief in Yahweh and the mark of Caine maybe enough.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                          Barring that however Kindred numbers are so low I believe they barely snap a ripple in the Consensus at all, so just them believing in the Caine myth wouldn't be enough to justify why they don't suffer Paradox. Not only that Humans who practiced or practice some form of Abrahamic religion DO know about Caine, but not the fact that he's a Vampire. I know practically nobody where I live who is religious that asserts Cain from the Book of Genesis was turned into a Vampire at all. Its safe to say Vampires don't suffer Paradox... The only "splats" off my head that suffer from direct "Paradox degradation" are Chimera from Changeling (in the form of Banality), Familiars, and Bygones (I think? I forgot if Bygones suffer from Paradox).
                          Bygones and constructs may mitigate Paradox by having permanent Paradox Flaws along with regularly consuming magical energies. Generally paradox matches your paradigm. Technocratic feedback for example doesn't tend to lead to you turning stuff to glass with your touch but mental breakdown and illness.

                          So lets look at Kindred.

                          They regularly need to feed at least 1 quint per day.

                          They take agg damage from sunlight.

                          The Beast.

                          Clan Flaws.

                          The Day sleep.

                          Kindred are perhaps not the best example for "not effected by paradox" On the other hand people subconsciously believe in monsters in the darkness.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Lian View Post

                            Bygones and constructs may mitigate Paradox by having permanent Paradox Flaws along with regularly consuming magical energies. Generally paradox matches your paradigm. Technocratic feedback for example doesn't tend to lead to you turning stuff to glass with your touch but mental breakdown and illness.

                            So lets look at Kindred.

                            They regularly need to feed at least 1 quint per day.

                            They take agg damage from sunlight.

                            The Beast.

                            Clan Flaws.

                            The Day sleep.

                            Kindred are perhaps not the best example for "not effected by paradox" On the other hand people subconsciously believe in monsters in the darkness.
                            Ah, that makes a lot of sense. I was a little iffy in memory concerning Bygones/Familiars/Constructs.


                            Jade Kingdom Warrior

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