Playing Rafastio

[Volesus]

Hey All!

I suspect this is something that folks have asked before, but I couldn't seem to find anything, so here I go.

Playing some V20, doing something ghoul - specifically revenant - focused. The subject of the Rafastio comes up. Here is the thinking: The Rafastio are meant to be witches, but without a vampire domitor to grant access to higher level Disciplines, their Thaumaturgy is capped at 1. Not the most impressive spellcasters, I think you would agree. Clearly, they need access to other forms of magic. I would like people's opinions on these points:

1) Allow a Rafastio to Awaken and make them a Verbena? I think not. Having revenant powers AND being a True Mage sounds a little over-powered. I would think that those rare Rafastio who Awaken would replace being a revenant with being a Mage (losing their Disciplines and slow aging). Sound fair?

2) Allow a Rafastio to be both a revenant and a Sorcerer (drawing on Sorcerer Revised)? That seems permissible, but the question of character creation arises. Create a Revenant first, then add Sorcerer traits? Create a basic Revenant and simply allow the purchase of Hedge Magic in game with exp? Or create a Sorcerer and then have the player pay for a Revenant "Merit" in same way that Ghoul is a Merit for Mages? The question then becomes how much would such a Merit cost? The max of 7 seems reasonable, but what do others think?

3) Regardless of whether a Rafastio is a Sorcerer or a Mage (as in, retaining their Revenant abilities), how would the Rafastio Weakness play into it? Would modifying Discipline rolls translate to modifying Sphere and Hedge Magic rolls? Maybe? Or is that too crippling? On the other hand, would saying that the Weakness only applies to Disciplines be too easily ignored as the Rafastio comes to rely on other magic in lieu of the "capped at 1" Disciplines?

I hope I've been clear. If anyone has any views, or would simply like clarification, please let me know!

[Kammerer]

I'll disagree with your premise.
1. The amoung of actual magic you need to call yourself a witch or a wizard or a shaman is zero. Source: IRL. And vampires aren't immune to superstition either, and arguably more vulnerable to it. Yes, a kitted out Tremere supernatural investigator will call bullshit on 90% of your magic, but your family's been practicing since before Tremere were a clan so obviously Tremere are wrong and know nothing.
2. Past that, access to level 1 Thaumaturgy still gives access to a large variety of pretty useful rituals.

Now, back to your points.
1. It's honestly not a big deal. Being a ghoul is an existing merit, and being a revenant just means you aren't an addict. Revenant powers are honestly just not that big of a deal compared to what the mages can already do, especially if they are Life-specialists. However, being a Mage in a Revenant game is a huge deal, and unless you keep that player on level 1 spheres forever - they'll wreck the party balance something fierce.
2. Sure, that's valid. I think revenants can buy sorcery paths anyway. If it's a revenant game, then make a character as a revenant and let them buy anything from the sorcerer book at normal sorcerer cost.
3. I'd say modify all of their magic. It'd be rough for Mages, but otherwise it's a non-weakness that's trivial to ignore because noone's going to buy revenant disciplines anyway.

[Volesus]

Thanks for the insight, especially on point 3! That was very much what I was leaning towards myself!

[Matt the Bruins fan]

I tend to favor letting them buy hedge magic paths (or Sorcerer paths) rather than Thaumaturgy, without the 1 dot ceiling but costing as much as other revenant disciplines.

[DrHappyAngry]

I agree, either make a ghoul and they can buy the sorcer paths with freebies or xp or make a sorcerer and they can take the ghoul merit. You might bump up the cost for it from the standard ghoul merit, though, since they're not a blood junky constantly having to look for their next fix and can produce their own vitae.

I'm not saying this is the right way to go, but there's a third alternative. Since they practice a very old style of magic, they could use the more restrictive Pillars and Foundation systems from Dark Ages: Mage. The V20 Black Hand book has some info on the mechanics of that and might be fitting if the character's affiliated with the Black Hand.

[Volesus]

Oh, that's a good idea, DrHappyAngry! Yes, the Old Fath Pillar and Foundation would fit very well. Especially, as you say, in light of the V20 Tal'Mahe'Ra book! Thanks all!

[MyWifeIsScary]

Do you think the using the Tremere logo makes me look a little more biased?

So, Thaumaturgy isn't a vampire thing. It's a product of the soul, seperated from the Beast. Hedge magic and Thaumaturgy are the same thing, only vampires have a better fuel source (vitae).

with this thought there's a few ways you could do things.

-You learn Thaumaturgy up to five, but sacrifice a health level instead of a blood when using a power beyond your gen limit.

-you learn thaum to 1, and any level beyond that is weaker hedge magic. you skip the levels of hedge magic if you have thaumaturgy, and can learn hedge paths with your thaum dot.

- you just learn Thaumaturgy with a cap of five. Assume thaum is a soul-based power like i said, not caring about generation, and you have the blood to use it normally. Kinda like how thin bloods in v5 have their own magic that goes to 5, but less bullshit.

[Kammerer]

Oh, that's a good idea, DrHappyAngry! Yes, the Old Fath Pillar and Foundation would fit very well. Especially, as you say, in light of the V20 Tal'Mahe'Ra book! Thanks all!

Note, that this'll make them even more powerful than the Sphere-based mages.

But I'll repeat just in case: don't discard "There are very few genuinely powerful witches among the Rafasto". It's totally valid. Consider, that Dark Age: Mage posited the following about Order of Hermes ranks:





Six out of seven apprentices of the order straight-up never become big M Mages, and are still "Hermetic Wizard" to the outside world. PCs are so special that a chargen character is in the last third of the hermetic ranks.