The „ultimate“ Baali summary thread

[Orkar]

Black Fox And that is totally fine, as i said, Baali in a story also come with unique problems, in special as player characters and its totally fine to not use them. I agree, that you can take other clans as substitute to a degree. Tzimisce surely do the wicked evil part well,Lasombra the outer darkness world ending part, the Giovanni the depravity, the Tremere the occult mysticism, the Setites the corruption and the Toreador the intruiging. I think the Baali just do all these aspcts not just in one but better than the others their respective point.

Are the baali vital to the setting? No absolutely not, not in a vampire game that usually focuses on local politics. And most PCs will never encounter a Baali or if they do they will never know.

valismedsen i havent dabbled much into V5 but Oblivion seems appropriate but it comes with issues. Daimonion is really the Baali discipline and Oblivion seems to fit obtenebration well which would only go for the Azaneali. HOWEVER since we know "hell" is actually the darkness, and not a fiery pit like in christian mythology and demons are trapped in the darkness it would make lots of sense that Baali actually have Obtenebration and thus Oblivion as standard power

Elphilm why not both Baali have easy access to dark thaumaturgy and likely regular thaumaturgy as well. So they can have both of those AND Daimonion on Top. And while Daimonion isnt very powerfull it fits them well. In special the "i can see what you fear and desire" part of Daimonion is brilliant for RP reasons. Not all disciplimnes have to be usefull for murdering your enemies.

Shakanaka i agree. That and the Baali really tie in well with Demons, Black Spiral dancers, nephandi etc. and open the world for much bigger and epic stories. And ofc. an entire clan of evildoeers seems vastly more intimidating than a bunch of idiots. Imagine how laughable the Sabbath would be if it were just 5 random vampires

[Elphilm]

Elphilm why not both Baali have easy access to dark thaumaturgy and likely regular thaumaturgy as well. So they can have both of those AND Daimonion on Top. And while Daimonion isnt very powerfull it fits them well. In special the "i can see what you fear and desire" part of Daimonion is brilliant for RP reasons. Not all disciplimnes have to be usefull for murdering your enemies.

Sure, you can totally have both. Like I said, I don't mind the popularity of the Baali -- they're obviously more "sexy" in the minds of a lot of fans than Infernalists in general. It's really just the power duplication that grinds my gears -- for example, the Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat had a path of Dark Thaumaturgy entirely focused on finding out the fears, desires, and secrets of other individuals (the Path of Secret Knowledge), so it's hard for me to see that as a Daimonion specialty. In fact, every single level of Daimonion is duplicated by Dark Thaumaturgy, which is why I simply consider the latter a revision and expansion of the former. The only unique thing about Daimonion is flavor text.

[Shakanaka]

The only unique thing about Daimonion is flavor text.

Daimonion is somewhat different from what most of the Paths in Dark Thaumaturgy gives if you look at what they both do. Unlike what was said before in this thread, it actually DOES allow you to re-embrace other Kindred into becoming Baali (this was given in the Lore of the Bloodlines book, which I really recommend along with Lore of the Clans). It also allows you to summon Demons directly, which I don't see any of Dark Thaumaturgy doing. High levels of Discipline also allows you to summon the "Elder Gods". Part of this makes me even question still what Demons the Baali actually commune with, because it definitely doesn't seem like the Demons from D:TF.

[Orkar]

Sure, you can totally have both. Like I said, I don't mind the popularity of the Baali -- they're obviously more "sexy" in the minds of a lot of fans than Infernalists in general. It's really just the power duplication that grinds my gears -- for example, the Storytellers Handbook to the Sabbat had a path of Dark Thaumaturgy entirely focused on finding out the fears, desires, and secrets of other individuals (the Path of Secret Knowledge), so it's hard for me to see that as a Daimonion specialty. In fact, every single level of Daimonion is duplicated by Dark Thaumaturgy, which is why I simply consider the latter a revision and expansion of the former. The only unique thing about Daimonion is flavor text.

i agree but same can be said about normal thaumaturgy. It can mimick almost all other disciplines. And to a degree can Koldun Krainas. That said, Fleshcraft can Mimick Protean and so on and so forth. For me i make Dark thaumaturgy really just accesible to Baali and very very very few other infernalists because dark thaumaturgy is a very highly valuable secret demons wont just share with anyone for a mere pact. Its one thing to ask a gunstore for a pistol and another to ask for a rocket launcher.

art of this makes me even question still what Demons the Baali actually commune with, because it definitely doesn't seem like the Demons from D:TF.

Depends on faction. The swarm communes with the elder gods since the clan book but not all baali do. But also not all baali commune with demons that much. Molochim try to avoid it

[adambeyoncelowe]

I had to skim read after the factions, as that was an extremely long OP. Did you mention ur-Shulgi? He's rumoured to be the Slave Boy or another Baali.

Personally, I prefer the Baali to Infernalists. The latter seem dumb and crude; Baali have more intelligent and enigmatic purposes. The Molochim in the TMR, for example, work well as they are.

There's much in the OP that seems to be original conjecture, though, and I don't think you can assume Lilith really was a Baali founder. Remember that a lot of IC material is biased, and a lot of OOC material is presented merely as rumour or plothooks, rather than objective fact. Things like that are very unlikely to be true (as much as anything in the WoD can be said to be true).

[Orkar]

I had to skim read after the factions, as that was an extremely long OP. Did you mention ur-Shulgi? He's rumoured to be the Slave Boy or another Baali.

Personally, I prefer the Baali to Infernalists. The latter seem dumb and crude; Baali have more intelligent and enigmatic purposes. The Molochim in the TMR, for example, work well as they are.

There's much in the OP that seems to be original conjecture, though, and I don't think you can assume Lilith really was a Baali founder. Remember that a lot of IC material is biased, and a lot if OOC material is presented merely as rumour or plothooks, rather than objective fact. Things like that are very unlikely to be true (as much as anything in the WoD can be said to be true).

yes i did go into the ur shulgi story ^^ and yes its a long read, its supposed to give you a "quick" overview on the Baali that is scattered across many publications into one place

Sure, we know many thingssaid aboutt he Baali can not be true as they outright contradict other things said about them. Who is right? You choose as storyteller. The Baali may not even be vampires at all, according to the secrets of the black hand. or they could be direct childer of Caine, looking at the many 2nd generation Baali out there

[Undead rabbit]

I'm Sorry but which 2nd gen baali are we talking about?

[Orkar]

I'm Sorry but which 2nd gen baali are we talking about?

it would be easier if you read the thread as it explains the details on why and other follow up questions you will definitely have as well.

We are speaking about Azaneal - 2nd generation Baali, Lilith, 2nd Generation baali, the Crone, 2nd Generation Baali

[Richard]

The same Crone that the Lhiannans say they are descended from? That would make them a Baali bloodline.

[Orkar]

The same Crone that the Lhiannans say they are descended from? That would make them a Baali bloodline.

the one and to my knowledge only Crone yes. And as said in the main post Baali bloodlines and factions are a thing ^^ Also the Lhiannan vanished about the same time ass the Baali took major blows and were rumored to do human sacrifice and other typically celtic but also quite horrific things.

The issue with all of that is that there are no definite statements about the Baali just better and lesser evidenceed rumors. Lilith may not be a vampire at all, but if she is she is a direct childe of Caine and the first infernalist in history and a Baali, having been at the infernalist city were the Baali were created. Similiar the Crone is definitely a child of Caine, his first actually, and shes definitely evil enough to be a Baali, only question there is if she managed to survive or not. Given her background its not unreasonable to think that a stake through the heart and having hours before sunrise she of all would know a way to escape the sun.
And ofc she and Lilith have reasons to hold a grudge against Caine but even more so god and the heavens

Azaneal is more difficult to pin down. He is listed as 2nd Generation Baali, but we dont know if he was embraed by Caine in the first city, which is possible, or if he started as 5th Generation Baali and got his blood changed by whatever happened in Chorazon to become 2nd Generation. Could also have diablerised an inprisoned 2nd Gen vampire that might have been guarding Namtaru

[Submariner93]

This is a truly enlightening thread, thanks for sharing!

[Orkar]

So for all of you who rather want it in audible portions i record this thread and add some more on my videos on Youtube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnFaxS3MmPY

Episode 1-3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSKKL30_yw4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJQU4Uqazas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OSh26jcxf0

[Kael03]

it would be easier if you read the thread as it explains the details on why and other follow up questions you will definitely have as well.

We are speaking about Azaneal - 2nd generation Baali, Lilith, 2nd Generation baali, the Crone, 2nd Generation Baali

Azaneal being Second Gen is only said by a small faction of the Tal'Mahe'Ra, which goes against the common threads of all of the stories we know of the era of the First and Second cities.

Lilith, and the Crone, are both speculated names/identities of the Unamed 3rd progenitor. Who was 4th gen like Nergal and Moloch. And then those speculations don't even agree with each other.

Also, Lilith was one of the first humans and the one that awakened Caine's disciplines, and was abandoned by him after so he never turned her.

And the Crone is an ancient entity that taught Caine about blood bonds and staking after he embraced her and before he staked her.

[Guest]

I thought Azaneal was Fourth Generation. Either he’s Nergal reborn or he’s like a Fourth Generation Baali who was about four hundred years old in the 1100s when he started calling himself Shaitan and then went to Mexico and impersonated the Teotl (Aztec) war god Huitzilopochtli.

[Kael03]

I thought Azaneal was Fourth Generation. Either he’s Nergal reborn or he’s like a Fourth Generation Baali who was about four hundred years old in the 1100s when he started calling himself Shaitan and then went to Mexico and impersonated the Teotl (Aztec) war god Huitzilopochtli.

Azaneal is likely 5th gen. Huitzilopochtli is the name likely taken by Nergal, who also went by Shaitan.