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The „ultimate“ Baali summary thread

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

    Azaneal is likely 5th gen. Huitzilopochtli is the name likely taken by Nergal, who also went by Shaitan.
    That makes sense.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Kael03 View Post

      Azaneal being Second Gen is only said by a small faction of the Tal'Mahe'Ra,
      I agree, with the Baali there is always a lot of retconning, decanonising, contradictive information and many versions. Most Sources say in the Clanbook arent even trustworthy and have had "dreams" about something or demons telling them.

      That said, i try to list all the versions and make a compelling Argument. Azaneal being second Generation could make sense if Caine entered a pact with demons and promised them a clan for themselves if they teach him the embrace, which they did according to the book of Nod. And then Azaneal could indeed be a child of Caine. It could also be that Chorazon and namtaru just changed his blood or he discovered a second gen in torpor there and diablerised it.

      Lilith could have been turned by Caine later, also with the pact to the demons or Lilith was among the original Coven, slain, and dumped into the well where she was turned by whoever spilled blood in it.

      The crone was staked and left for the sun indeed, but she had some hours till sunrise left and i dont find it unreasonable to think tht the crone, being knowledged and powerfull as she was, had some tricks upon her sleeve, special knowledge, magic or just demonic or mortal minions to get her to safety in time. I dont think its unreasonable that she survived

      Also edited the "Notable Baali" and added a few

      Also added "History of the Baali"
      Last edited by Orkar; 01-09-2021, 03:31 PM.

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      • #33
        My first introduction to the Baali was through the Chaos Factor as part of my collection for Mage. As such, it’s always been my canon for the Baali, particularly since I didn’t start really picking up non-Mage material until about 5 years ago.

        Leaving their origin as The Chaos Factor one also made sense in light of my Vampire campaign being expressly Catholic-themed and Vampire exclusive (to the point of Lupines not even being Garou, but the descendants of Lycaon who were cursed by angels mistaken for Greek Gods by those unfamiliar with that insignificant monotheistic religion down in the Fertile Crescent at the time... who gain “blood” points for their disciplines by feeding on human flesh).

        Anyway, Baali as outright worshippers of biblical demons were a perfect take for this particular take on setting... as is the notion that various vampires and Baali played the role of various pagan gods throughout history.

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        • #34
          So a video update. i wanted to know if i improved or did worse ^^ and howi can become better

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS5Xs9sj3Fw

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIO5qw2CON8

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          • #35
            Maybe like this?

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxx1Yq2QFXw

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            • #36
              I for one love the Baali and have used them several times in my games over the last twenty odd years. Some great perspectives in this thread so thanks to the OP.

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              • #37
                Thank you =) im currwently playing a baali on a cross splat server, very interesting XD

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                • #38
                  This twitch channel is starting a V5 Baali Chicago by night game tonight
                  https://twitch.tv/postmortemgamingchannel

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                  • #39
                    So this thread is very awesome and I appreciate all the free info and speculation.

                    But I was wondering if anyone could give some sources? I have Clanbook Baali (obviously) but what are the other big time books that give us the most info about Baali characteristics or lore?

                    Thanks in advance.

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                    • #40
                      Off the top of my head, the entry on the Path of the Hive in "Chaining the Beast" offers the first hints of the Molochim finding common cause with Old Clan Tzimisce.

                      V20's "Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal'mahe'ra" fleshes this out and is the first book to develop the Molochim and their unique demon-fighting Blood Sorcery.

                      V20's "Lore of the Bloodlines" is the first to tell the story of the Baali from the Nergali point of view.

                      I gladly welcome correction if I missed anything that had significant lore.

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                      • #41
                        The Seker stuff (which includes infiltrating the Council of Seven and tricking the Tremere into becoming vampires/diablerising Saulot) is all from the Red Death trilogy and is not considered canon.

                        The stuff about the Crone and Lilith being Second Gen is conjecture from the Book of Nod (where the Crone was Embraced) and the rumour that Lilith is the third Baali progenitor (as Caine would've most likely Embraced her, if anyone did) from the Baali Clanbook. I think that's maybe where the myth about Zillah comes from, too.

                        Realistically, Lilith didn't need to be Embraced, though. According to Revelations of the Dark Mother, God cursed her to crack in sunlight and only heal in the moonlight. She was already immortal and Awakened. The only thing she lacks, according to that book, is a need for blood. What would she gain from being Embraced, except the Beast and everything that comes with it? It would be a net loss for her.

                        She was also super sceptical of Awakening Caine because of the interaction between it and the Curse of God. And she is apparently proved right when, after she Awakens him, he is immediately plunged into darkness and receives his three courses (which could be a fancy way of implying his Awakening caused three major Paradox Flaws, which manifested as the vampiric banes; the book was written by the Mage developer, so I don't think it's coincidental when he also uses the term 'Awakening' here).

                        So the end result is that she knew mixing Awakening and vampirism was a bad thing, and likely had proof to support that belief. So she wouldn't really want the Embrace. I doubt Caine, at that point, could have forced her, as he was still only learning Thaumaturgy (the 'path of blood' mentioned in the BoN) by the time he left her, and she was a fully Awakened mage who had eaten the Fruits of Life and Knowledge, had possibly slept with Yahweh/become His equal, and had been given dominion over night by Lucifer.

                        The Crone is likely also not the same person who started the Lhiannon, since they are a Gangrel bloodline and the Crone would be a generation lower than Gangrel/Ennoia herself. Just as Baba Yaga isn't the same Crone, I think we have to assume it's just a common moniker (like Shaitan, or the Mycenaean Charon who assumed the name of the angel Charon). Gehenna had the Crone as Eickos (the second, abandoned wife of Adam), come for revenge of her own. That seems the most official answer we have yet, even though Gehenna isn't canon either.

                        Azaneal is usually said to be Fifth Generation (see the Clanbook), albeit one who has become a demon of some kind. It's only the Tal'mahe'Ra book that suggests otherwise, and that might just be a rumour from ignorant Baali trying to explain his increased power relative to other vampires. (Alternatively, he is possessed by a Second Generation vampire or some sort of demon. But that seems equally tenuous from the evidence we have.)

                        The stuff about ur-Shulgi was excised from Clanbook: Assamite, but there's a link to the cut material on the authors' website (link via the wiki article on ur-Shulgi, listed in the trivia section, IIRC).

                        Shaitan as being in Mexico is from Chaos Factor (retconned) and Mexico by Night (canon). Other books have suggested or hinted that Melinda Galbraith was under the influence of a Baali beneath that city, so it seems he is still there. The Clanbook and other sources confirm Shaitan (at least, this one) is Nergal. The Clanbook also clarifies that Azaneal has used the title at some point, too.

                        I think those are all the references I can remember off the top of my head (I am away from my books right now).

                        ETA: Though it's an admirable job trying to fit it all together. I'm not knocking that. And the videos are definitely enjoyable! Thanks for making them.
                        Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 04-15-2022, 05:26 AM.


                        Writer, publisher, performer
                        Mostly he/his, sometimes she/her IRL https://adam-lowe.com

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