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  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Paraphrasing and all but I got into an argument with a dev about the Hecata, and in his view he thinks it's his responsibility to make unpopular clans more "popular". We apparently live in a world where fans should have factions catered to their real world ideals. That's how V5 works. It's the meta-reasoning for why there's now a different type of Tremere for every real-life viewpoint you can have, when the Pyramid used to be a monopolistic monolith. So if we take this and extrapolate, we'll probably have Tzmisce in three kinds: Hoary old elders for the Camarilla, progressives for the anarchs using body mods and changing their outward sexes, and maybe some horror shows on the side in whatever the sabbat devolved into.
    This would be fine, actually. Why does it bother you? Why are you trying to make it seem like using body mods and changing their outward sexes is either new to the Tzimisce, or a bad thing? Doesn't this just reflect your own personal biases more than it does the game itself? Aren't you asking that the factions cater to your "real world ideals" instead?

    Also, who's holding the Tremere "pyramid" together when the clan leadership was apparently wiped out? It's clear that Schrekt as written needs cooperation from the other two houses at this time and can't afford to ignore or expel them.

    Also, actually, it is a dev's and writer's job to write good material people want to use. If you write an option for people to play why would waste time writing it in a way to repel others? I used to know someone who did a lot of RPG freelance work and his rule of thumb was try to offer at least one idea for a story hook in each paragraph he wrote. Inspire people to want to play the stuff he's written instead of pushing it aside because no one likes it. The dev was 100% right on this.

    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    In my opinion, this is bad, and some clans were meant to be unliked; The Tremere were meant to be odious, that was their whole deal,everyone hates the Tremere. It was as part of their identity as ugliness is for the Nosferatu. The clan of death fucked corpses and that was just the tip of the iceberg for their creepy shit. Now, sure, I can think of some pretty compelling in-universe reasons for the Tremere split, but the Followers of Set split is utterly asinine; It should be pretty self-evident that V5 works on a paradigm of -everything is structured in accordance to someone's out-of-universe beliefs rather than some in-universe logic. Ultimately, we get the impression that most changes aren't -I like this, let's have it develop- but rather -I want to like this, but I don't, so I'll change it-
    The in universe logic is there. You might not like it, you might have your own personal beliefs about stuff that makes you think it's bad to include transgender Tzimisce or a Tremere house focused on modern magical practices, but you keep trying to argue those personal beliefs are actually the true intent behind Vampire: The Masquerade that's somehow being violated by people who have worked years or even decades on the line.

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    • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post
      The in universe logic is there.
      I agree and will take it a step further - it is more logical, or at least more plausible, now than it has been in the past.

      It never felt plausible that there were no Tzimisce among the Anarchs to take a single example. This was statement written in the same books where the Fiends were described as tetchy, independent minded, and often focused on their foul work to the exclusion of all else. The Tzimisce also created the first Anarch Revolt. I could easily see some of them deciding the Sabbat was a waste of their time and moving to some Anarch domain and striking a deal with the local Baron to be generally left alone. This matches their described temperament and behavior better than a flat statement that they never join the Anarchs because Anarchs have cooties. V5 just brings the status to where they should have been all along.

      On a meta-level it also works; it allows for more game possibilities than existed before. Prior to V5 somethings (i.e.everything Giovanni, Lasombra, and Tzimisce) was out of bounds if the game was an Anarch game or even a Camarilla game. Now there more possibilities, more options for the ST and players. I think that is a good thing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
        Tremere hated? the fuck you talking about?
        I think within the setting the Tremere are hated (or at least feared or distrusted) by almost everyone. Among the players though, they were extremely popular. So we need to be careful when we're distinguishing that.

        They were popular among players because they had Thaumaturgy, and having access to toys the other PCs didn't is something that appeals to a lot of people.

        In my own experience, there are two types of players who love the Tremere. The first is the person who just wants access to Thaumaturgy and do all sorts of cool things. This person does not want to deal with the actual Pyramid at all - it gets in the way of them having fun doing whatever they want as Merlin. The second type is the person who likes the idea of the Pyramid and roleplaying with it. They like the Thaumaturgy too, but they understand it's unbalancing and realize the Pyramid's structure is there to limit its appeal. This second group, of course, is much, much smaller than the first. But in my opinion those kind of players and STs understood the Tremere much better and portrayed it more accurately.

        I and a lot of my friends were in a completely different group. We thought the Tremere Pyramid was an intriguing part of the setting, we liked certain things about Thaumaturgy, but we felt Thaumaturgy could quickly descend into cheese and we quickly became annoyed at the first group of Tremere players. We liked roleplaying with the second type of Tremere fan because they were much less cheesy. We ourselves almost always played non-Tremere.

        The first group of Tremere players almost always hate the second group of Tremere players because the second group wants to roleplay the Pyramid as it should be, and that of course is what the first group does not want at all.

        I do think there is a role for certain Thaumaturgy paths outside the control of the Tremere that are available to everyone. And I do think there is a role for rogue Tremere who can join the Anarchs and not be immediately killed.

        But like a lot of things in V5 I am sympathetic to, what I read secondhand of V5 doesn't seem like it was implemented well, but heavy handedly and not an organic part of the setting. It seems more like fiat. So I am not surprised at so much resistance to it.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          Like I said, there's no wrong way to do Vampire: The Masquerade and the point of the game is to have fun.

          However, you're just dead wrong about it not being interesting or fun. The best part of V:TM for me is the struggle for freedom against the pathetic sell-outs and shells that are the Elders. Yes, you cannot win against the Antediluvians or the Jyhad but you can fight for every bit of freedom that you can possess as well as thwart the ambitions as well as plans of beings centuries older than you are. Eventually, you will meet the Final Death or become corrupted. There's no way out except Golconda and I suspect that requires you leaving Kindred society altogether if it exists at all.

          But you can throw a Molotov at the system.

          Also, "transcendence of Humanity" is an interesting argument because it may be just as mythical as Golconda. To quote COLONEL SUN, which is the last "official" Bond novel despite not being by Ian Fleming, Colonel Sun is a villain who talks a big game about transcending moral values, the power of embracing inhuman morality, and being a superior being. Bond beats the crap out of him and as he's about to die, Sun admits that it was all bullshit and that he just felt disgust and shame at all the things he did.

          It's up to the ST whether the Sabbat's claims of Nirvana are truly the way forward or just self-delusions of serial killers.

          But you get to decide that for your table, not me.

          Same for the merits of the Anarchs.

          #RESIST


          Disagree on the Anarchs, but you knew that.

          On the transcendence thing. that's half of the point, and it seperates the poseurs who are actually on humanity from those on paths, and yet even those on paths are probably not transcending in any meaningful way, they are no longer holding even shreds of what they were as mortals, but what they are now is likely just a monsterous being with blue and orange morality (and that is fine and fun)
          Last edited by Taggie; 12-22-2020, 05:12 AM.

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          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
            I think most of these complaints can be summed up as: "I cannot imagine Vampire: The Masquerade being anything other than the game I imagined in my head, and anything that varies from this is therefore intolerable”.
            More like "I'd like my Vampire to be internally consistent and I can't accept big stupid changes brought on by industrially produced idiot balls"

            Like, just imagine you go back in time to roleplay some of the events that lead up to V5; The Vienna bombing, the lasombra defection, the Brujah leaving the Camarilla... would... would any of that actually happen? Just feels like we had four excellent seasons written by G.R.R Martin and then they ran out of material and D'n D took the lead (Note: I stopped watching mid S5, I don't actually know how bad that stuff got, but I hear it's pretty bad) or... I had a long, almost rant like explanation, but that's probably too much.

            Please stop acting like it's a crime to want good writing, internal consistency, and characters who don't make decisions based on what would be the most dramatic but rather by what would work best for them. We don't oppose change, we just oppose bad change, which is why we have so much to talk about.


            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              More like "I'd like my Vampire to be internally consistent and I can't accept big stupid changes brought on by industrially produced idiot balls"

              Like, just imagine you go back in time to roleplay some of the events that lead up to V5; The Vienna bombing, the lasombra defection, the Brujah leaving the Camarilla... would... would any of that actually happen? Just feels like we had four excellent seasons written by G.R.R Martin and then they ran out of material and D'n D took the lead (Note: I stopped watching mid S5, I don't actually know how bad that stuff got, but I hear it's pretty bad) or... I had a long, almost rant like explanation, but that's probably too much.

              Please stop acting like it's a crime to want good writing, internal consistency, and characters who don't make decisions based on what would be the most dramatic but rather by what would work best for them. We don't oppose change, we just oppose bad change, which is why we have so much to talk about.
              What constitutes good writing is not objectively decided by your preferences. You are not a writer, or developer or anybody that is an authority on the background of the game. I find pretty much all your perspectives on the game to be bad, including what is internally consistent or not. Fortunately for both of us, we can still choose how we interpret and develop the game on our own terms at our own game tables.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                More like "I'd like my Vampire to be internally consistent and I can't accept big stupid changes brought on by industrially produced idiot balls"
                I don't know why you feel this way. Real life is not internally consistent and we are always being force fed big stupid changes brought on by industrially produced idiot balls, so in those terms it's all very true to life.

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                • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  More like "I'd like my Vampire to be internally consistent and I can't accept big stupid changes brought on by industrially produced idiot balls"
                  Can we not bash the developers hard work? It's not for you. we get it but if you come here to trash it alone, then maybe it's not worth it?


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Can we not bash the developers hard work? It's not for you. we get it but if you come here to trash it alone, then maybe it's not worth it?
                    Shit, sorry, I meant from an in-universe perspective.

                    I can see why people like V5. But for me, selling off verismilitude for sensationalist storytelling is not a good deal. Too much cognitive dissonance.
                    My lasombra characters wouldn't stand the Lasombra storyline. My Followers of Set wouldn't be happy with either Ministry or Church. My Tremere would probably be quite understanding in fairness, my corpse-fuckers would be dissatisfied with the Hecata ... My Tzmisce wouldn't be happy with what's happened to his/her Disciplines and their apparent meaning on their role within society...


                    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                    There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                      Disagree on the Anarchs, but you knew that.

                      On the transcendence thing. that's half of the point, and it seperates the poseurs who are actually on humanity from those on paths, and yet even those on paths are probably not transcending in any meaningful way, they are no longer holding even shreds of what they were as mortals, but what they are now is likely just a monsterous being with blue and orange morality (and that is fine and fun)
                      The thing about the Anarchs, Taggie, is that you can play them anyway you want, though. If you hate the way the guy who offended you played them (and he sounds like a real jerk), you can remake them pretty much however you wish.

                      Because its up to each ST to interpret the Clans as they wish for their games.

                      Everything is broad strokes.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                        What constitutes good writing is not objectively decided by your preferences. You are not a writer, or developer or anybody that is an authority on the background of the game. I find pretty much all your perspectives on the game to be bad, including what is internally consistent or not. Fortunately for both of us, we can still choose how we interpret and develop the game on our own terms at our own game tables.
                        Pretty much. I've been generally okay with much of the fluff of V5. I was more concerned in the beginning when we had so many Clans MIA and everything feeling like all uncertain and up in the air. The early scandals aside of course. I love the Hecata and that they actually took the time to explain how they can interact with the Sects and the other Clans. It's nothing really new for me as I had been treating the Giovanni like that for years now in my games but it's good to see them come out an explain for those that haven't really used them because they see them as neutral isolationists. I'm fine with what's happened to the Lasombra and the Ministry while what's going on with the Banu Haqim, Ravnos and Tzimisce feels to me like a natural continuation of material from the previous editions.

                        The Beckoning I'm a little mixed on. I do get why they did and do like that some of the entrenched Elders have been removed and shaken things up but at the same time some of the Elders were interesting figures. The Gehenna Crusade does feel like a natural reaction from the Sabbat, especially it's more fanatical members.

                        The Second Inquisition... I think in the beginning it wasn't handled the best because it is a good idea and works with the technology that has risen up since the start of VtM. But I think that they were too sudden, too abrupt in an edition that was already shaking a lot of things up. I think that if we had the Rulebook had been more vague about, that the hunters were suddenly becoming more organized, numerous and effective, leading reactionary Kindred fearing that it's a Second Inquisition, with the following books revealing more bit by bit that the situation is much worse than they realize with the eventual SI book revealing the full extent of the SI.

                        Originally posted by Grumpy RPG Reviews View Post

                        I don't know why you feel this way. Real life is not internally consistent and we are always being force fed big stupid changes brought on by industrially produced idiot balls, so in those terms it's all very true to life.
                        Yeah... I'm going to have to agree with Grumpy on this, especially in the Magical Hell Year of 2020.


                        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          I can see why people like V5. But for me, selling off verismilitude for sensationalist storytelling is not a good deal. Too much cognitive dissonance.
                          I’m not sure you can see why people like V5, going on your commentary. V5 does not sell off verisimilitude for anything. You just happen to have too much cognitive dissonance to appreciate the game.

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                          • Ok.
                            Convince me.
                            come up with a compelling argument for why lasombra can and should defect en masse to the cam rather than the anarchs, or why the Followers of Set have split into two heresies...


                            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              Ok.
                              Convince me.
                              come up with a compelling argument for why lasombra can and should defect en masse to the cam rather than the anarchs
                              can't blame them for not wanting the anarchs,
                              anarchs suck, are unrefined and uncool,
                              for all their faults, camarilla at least dresses better and have more interresting parties

                              or why the Followers of Set have split into two heresies...
                              probably some modernists that got fed up with the trads after having trouble meeting the elders' demands while running their business,
                              the anarchs offered a good opportunity to milk money off of streetkids (anarchs) without having to report back to the elders

                              at least, that's what would have made sense if that were the case, but if I remember correctly, the setites were doing just fine before so...yeah, it doesn't feel like a continuation, more like a soft retcon


                              -

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                              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                Ok.
                                Convince me.
                                come up with a compelling argument for why lasombra can and should defect en masse to the cam rather than the anarchs, or why the Followers of Set have split into two heresies...
                                1. The best agrument for defection I've gotten for the Lasombra isn't that it's one thing but it's a bunch of things that have added up. The simple terms, though, is the fact the Lasombra are people who do not have any loyalty to anyone but themselves. When they saw the Sabbat was failing and the Beast was taking over the younglings (plus ancient Mithras-esque spirits), when they saw the Antitribu were becoming more powerful, and when they saw that going to the Gehenna Crusade would get them all killed. Like the guys who constantly whipped the mob into a frenzy in the French Revolution, only to be sent to the guilotine themselves, they saw they had lost control over the Tiger so they needed an exit stragey.

                                Now if you don't think the Lasombra are losing control over the Sabbat, if you'd argue that their control is absolute and the Sabbat are NOT a lost cause then no amount of convincing is going to persuade you otherwise. The premise is that the Lasombra have been losing ground in each of the Sabbat Civil Wars and the last one was taken over by Polonia with him arguing they can kill the ANTEDILUVIANS *NOW* rather than wait for some nebulous Gehenna.

                                The thing is, the Amis Nocti have learned that they FAILED to kill their Antediluvian. They have a philosophy of Darwinism that "The Strong Rule, the Weak Perish." The whole reason the Lasombra defected to the Sabbat/First Anarch Revolt in the first place is due to Gratiano killing the Antediluvian. Essentially, the entire reason for the Clan's Loyalty was based on a lie.

                                Now you may argue that the Lasombra would never be able to defect in the first place because the Camarilla would never accept them but I think this is a lie as well. The Lasombra Antitribu have always existed and we just had a whole city defect at the start of Revised. The price for letting these Lasombra in will be them betraying other Sabbat and making a show of loyalty. The thing is I don't think the Ventrue realized how MANY Lasombra would be willing to throw their own under the bus or that they would have to do so to protect themselves from retribution.

                                Marcus Vitel, 2000 year old Methuselah, is also apparently involved in this despite being the Anarch "Emperor" and working with the Amis Noctis.

                                2. I think the thing about the Ministry is a reinterpretation of past elements of the Followers of Set's belief structures. One of the things the Followers of Set had established in the first Clan Book and later Clan Book Revised was that the Followers of Set have been incorporating alternative religions as well as ideologies into their ranks. Damballa, the World Serpent, Loki, Satanism, and so on. All roads lead to Set.

                                The thing is that the Followers of Set have never been able to fully digest the religions they've incorporated and effectively tried to appropriate Roman-style. The worshipers of Damballa, for instance, never have worshiped Set because well, Damballa isn't evil. This meant there's been a brewing schism for some time. Now, of course, the Followers of Set have been able to bring these people in for the most part. They kill, brainwash, and are very good at it. However, this time they screwed up because the polytheists of the Setites were happy with a rebranding and had a liberal multipath interpretation influenced by voodoo, Greek mythology, and other religions. However, the Egyptian orthodox ones feel they need to "reign them in" and that led to persecution and a culling of the former.

                                Which, as you know, is perfect feeding ground to create martyrs.
                                Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-22-2020, 03:54 PM.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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