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  • Really? You think the Camarilla is sinking.

    They drove out the Anarchs from their ranks and now have two incredibly powerful new clans to replace the Old. They also have taken a lot of old Sabbat territory.

    Yes, Second Inquisition is bad and so is the Beckoning but the Ancilla are there to fill the gaps of the missing Elders.

    Just my thoughts.

    I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

    Comment


    • I see the reason the reason the lasombra joining the camarilla is pretty obvious. The anarchs don't stand a long term chance. The anarchs are fodder for the second inquisition and one hundred years from now will probably be in worse shape than now. The camarilla is a powerful long term institution. Join the winning side, Not the losing side.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        They drove out the Anarchs from their ranks and now have two incredibly powerful new clans to replace the Old. They also have taken a lot of old Sabbat territory.
        .
        Lasombra defects are not equal to the brujah, and losing the brujah is an absolutely brutal blow (also it's completely out of character but I digress)
        Similarly, Assamite Schismatics aren't really all that much when you think about it. Most of them are Toreador-lite. They left the Loyalists because half of them are potentially destabilizing religious nuts and the other half are conflict adverse. The Schismatics are significantly weaker than the loyalists.

        The SI is probably the Camarilla's work, really.
        But with the elders gone the Camarilla has been weekened. Sure, the rulership might become a little more reasonable, but it's lost it's muscle. I guess in V5 not having elders is an advantage (because they're hungry messes after potency 5) but...

        Monopoly is a powerful thing, and the Cam gave it up. It would've been easier to fix the fleet, rather than give all the damaged ships to the enemy.


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          Lasombra defects are not equal to the brujah, and losing the brujah is an absolutely brutal blow (also it's completely out of character but I digress)
          Similarly, Assamite Schismatics aren't really all that much when you think about it. Most of them are Toreador-lite. They left the Loyalists because half of them are potentially destabilizing religious nuts and the other half are conflict adverse. The Schismatics are significantly weaker than the loyalists.

          The SI is probably the Camarilla's work, really.
          But with the elders gone the Camarilla has been weekened. Sure, the rulership might become a little more reasonable, but it's lost it's muscle. I guess in V5 not having elders is an advantage (because they're hungry messes after potency 5) but...

          Monopoly is a powerful thing, and the Cam gave it up. It would've been easier to fix the fleet, rather than give all the damaged ships to the enemy.
          Well the Brujah are disloyal and were the biggest threat to the Camarilla within the Camarilla.

          You also forgot the Sorcerer Caste of the Assamites who defected en masse.

          So the Lasombra are much better to recruit than the Brujah, especially since they trashed the Sabbat ob their way out.

          And the Schismatics are 1/3rd of the Assamites according to Assamite Revised, with another 1/3rd defecting to the Sabbat.

          This is just my opinion, though.

          You could disagree.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            also it's completely out of character but I digress
            You think it's out of character for a clan defined by challenging social conventions and refusing to unthinkingly accept authority to back out of the singular vampire government which does things the way it does because this is how they've always been done? Really?

            Comment


            • I disagree with MWIS on a lot of things, but I'm in general more sympathetic to his views here than others.

              One thing I'm not seeing discussed (though I could easily miss it by mostly skimming over 25 pages of thread and reading only some in detail) is the issue of the Vinculum. How exactly can all these Sabbat vampires betray their fellow sect members by joining the enemy? Even low levels of the Vinculum would seem to prevent that.

              Furthermore, how is it going to affect the Camarilla when huge members of the enemy sect arrive inside, and they have the ability to break any blood bond currently in existence in the Camarilla (and which would also install a low level blood bond to these "ex-Sabbat" members - who of course still have Vinculum with all the other members of the Sabbat)? There aren't any objections to this? Wouldn't this destroy the sect long term? Do all these Lasombra just make a pinky-swear that they'd never do such a thing?

              To me, this is a pretty insurmountable obstacle to this scenario. Unless there is a way to destroy the Vinculum and prevent the Vaulderie from working, I can't accept it even on a theoretical basis.

              Besides that, there is another issue. There's some level of logic to the people who support this scenario, but ultimately it's the same kind of logic that Hitler had when he thought he could split the Western Allies and the Soviet Union and make separate peaces with them in 1944/1945, or that Himmler and Goering had that they could negotiate a beneficial surrender with Eisenhower because he'd just jump at getting all those SS and Wehrmacht units at his command so he could fight that inevitable war with the Soviet Union. Or if you don't want WWII analogies, then Napoleon leaving Elba in the 100 Days but offering peace with his former enemies so they'd just accept him coming back into power. All of this had a certain kind of logic and evidence to support it too - except that nobody else was ever going to stand for it. These were just desperate gambles with no chance of success.

              In history, you do sometimes have cases where the world suddenly changes. Hitler and Stalin make a pact. France and Austria can become allies in the Diplomatic Revolution of 1756. But these kind of reversals tend to be short lived, collapse into acrimony, and the age old rivalries resume. When real reversals are made, it generally takes a long time and reflects long term trends changing the nature of international politics.

              In Professional Wrestling, you can do these kind of things. You can have Hitler or Himmler "turn" and all that matters is whether the audience at the moment think its "cool". You can bring back the Napoleon "character" out of retirement because the audience kept demanding it. In the real world these kind of things are much harder to pull off. To me, much of the V5 scenarios are at the level of a Professional Wrestling story. If you like those kind of things, this is awesome and everyone else should shut up about how Hulk Hogan would never join the NWO. That Hogan turned heel in this stunt is so much fun so who cares. If you like a more serious setting, you're left with your mouth gaped open wondering why Wellington and Napoleon have teamed up to fight Andrew Jackson and a six-year old Abraham Lincoln. They'd be doomed except that the Japanese Shogun is sending his samurai army to New Orleans right now - if they can reach there in time! That this would never happen destroys any enjoyment for you.

              I'm sure there are scenarios where I could accept a large scale defection of Sabbat Lasombra to the Camarilla. But the way this was done is not one of them. If I was asked to write such a scenario that I'd be happy with, I could probably do so with enough time. But there would still be just as many complaints as there is now that it still doesn't make sense to them. Everyone is going to have their own take on the setting and their own tastes to the style of play at their table.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                I disagree with MWIS on a lot of things, but I'm in general more sympathetic to his views here than others.

                One thing I'm not seeing discussed (though I could easily miss it by mostly skimming over 25 pages of thread and reading only some in detail) is the issue of the Vinculum. How exactly can all these Sabbat vampires betray their fellow sect members by joining the enemy? Even low levels of the Vinculum would seem to prevent that.

                Furthermore, how is it going to affect the Camarilla when huge members of the enemy sect arrive inside, and they have the ability to break any blood bond currently in existence in the Camarilla (and which would also install a low level blood bond to these "ex-Sabbat" members - who of course still have Vinculum with all the other members of the Sabbat)? There aren't any objections to this? Wouldn't this destroy the sect long term? Do all these Lasombra just make a pinky-swear that they'd never do such a thing?

                To me, this is a pretty insurmountable obstacle to this scenario. Unless there is a way to destroy the Vinculum and prevent the Vaulderie from working, I can't accept it even on a theoretical basis.

                Besides that, there is another issue. There's some level of logic to the people who support this scenario, but ultimately it's the same kind of logic that Hitler had when he thought he could split the Western Allies and the Soviet Union and make separate peaces with them in 1944/1945, or that Himmler and Goering had that they could negotiate a beneficial surrender with Eisenhower because he'd just jump at getting all those SS and Wehrmacht units at his command so he could fight that inevitable war with the Soviet Union. Or if you don't want WWII analogies, then Napoleon leaving Elba in the 100 Days but offering peace with his former enemies so they'd just accept him coming back into power. All of this had a certain kind of logic and evidence to support it too - except that nobody else was ever going to stand for it. These were just desperate gambles with no chance of success.

                In history, you do sometimes have cases where the world suddenly changes. Hitler and Stalin make a pact. France and Austria can become allies in the Diplomatic Revolution of 1756. But these kind of reversals tend to be short lived, collapse into acrimony, and the age old rivalries resume. When real reversals are made, it generally takes a long time and reflects long term trends changing the nature of international politics.

                In Professional Wrestling, you can do these kind of things. You can have Hitler or Himmler "turn" and all that matters is whether the audience at the moment think its "cool". You can bring back the Napoleon "character" out of retirement because the audience kept demanding it. In the real world these kind of things are much harder to pull off. To me, much of the V5 scenarios are at the level of a Professional Wrestling story. If you like those kind of things, this is awesome and everyone else should shut up about how Hulk Hogan would never join the NWO. That Hogan turned heel in this stunt is so much fun so who cares. If you like a more serious setting, you're left with your mouth gaped open wondering why Wellington and Napoleon have teamed up to fight Andrew Jackson and a six-year old Abraham Lincoln. They'd be doomed except that the Japanese Shogun is sending his samurai army to New Orleans right now - if they can reach there in time! That this would never happen destroys any enjoyment for you.

                I'm sure there are scenarios where I could accept a large scale defection of Sabbat Lasombra to the Camarilla. But the way this was done is not one of them. If I was asked to write such a scenario that I'd be happy with, I could probably do so with enough time. But there would still be just as many complaints as there is now that it still doesn't make sense to them. Everyone is going to have their own take on the setting and their own tastes to the style of play at their table.
                While I disagree with most of V5's changes, history shows us things can change very quickly. Alexander the great's conquest of Persia, the Anglo-Saxon invasion of England, the Norman conquest, the founding of the modern state of Israel, the revolutions in Egypt and Iran, The Soviet and Maoist revolutions, the internet, the American Revolution, the American Civil War (massive changes to the Southern States), the end of segregation in the Southern states, the Mongol conquests, etc etc. Also Napolean did come out of retirement, although it didn't do him or France a lot of good.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  Well the Brujah are disloyal and were the biggest threat to the Camarilla within the Camarilla.
                  The Brujah would never let one person speak for all of them.

                  You also forgot the Sorcerer Caste of the Assamites who defected en masse.
                  I did not, cannot, and would not. I wrote a whole book on Quietus to boot. :P
                  The Assamite sorcerers have consistently been written as by far the absolute smallest caste. The warriors dwarf the Viziers, and the Viziers Dwarf the Sorcerers. As for the Shism, they were split 50-50.
                  Furthermore, Assamite sorcerers have consistently failed to match up to the Tremere. The Tremere's entire organization is centred around making mages. The Assamites just happen to have mages. Tremere magic is regimented and structured, Assamites have a very loose collection of systems that lead to internal conflict. Tremere magic allows initiates from any faith, Assamite magic is heretical in most religions and much of the schismatics are such because religion and... yeah. You read up on Sihr? That's terrible stuff. There's a reason why, although the Assamite magic is thousands of years older, the Tremere have a lot more abilities...
                  All the Assamite sorcerers do is weaken the Tremere monopoly ever so slightly. There's not even enough of them to spread to all the cities the schismatics have joined.

                  So the Lasombra are much better to recruit than the Brujah, especially since they trashed the Sabbat ob their way out.
                  .
                  The Brujah were plentiful and mostly pretty simple. The Lasombra are few and complicated.


                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                  There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                  Comment


                  • I kinda hope there is a big ole retcon in the sabbat book. Lasombra leaving? Chaff who couldn't hack it. Tizimice anarchs? Lost lambs who will figure it one day. Everyone else? Anties still here, everything else is lies.


                    You've been playing around the magic that is black
                    But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post
                      While I disagree with most of V5's changes, history shows us things can change very quickly.
                      I wasn't talking about armed conquests, but sudden reversals in diplomatic stances.

                      Originally posted by DrHappyAngry View Post
                      Also Napolean did come out of retirement, although it didn't do him or France a lot of good.
                      I actually mentioned that. My comment about the 100 Days, and that he tried to come back and failed was exactly my point.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Dwight View Post
                        I kinda hope there is a big ole retcon in the sabbat book. Lasombra leaving? Chaff who couldn't hack it. Tizimice anarchs? Lost lambs who will figure it one day. Everyone else? Anties still here, everything else is lies.
                        That would make the Sabbat look pretty terrible to get utterly gutted by the Lasombra chafe.

                        But yes, I want the Lasombra to still be with the Sabbat. I just want them to be playable with the Camarilla nad have the best enemies possible: themselves.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          The thing about the Anarchs, Taggie, is that you can play them anyway you want, though. If you hate the way the guy who offended you played them (and he sounds like a real jerk), you can remake them pretty much however you wish.

                          Because its up to each ST to interpret the Clans as they wish for their games.

                          Everything is broad strokes.
                          I don't like them as a theme, at all, nothing published about them ever makes them sound interesting. If I remade them, we have that, it is the Sabbat.

                          The guys plural who broke Anarchs for me took it from, I don't want to play one to I don't want to be in the same game as one.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                            I wasn't talking about armed conquests, but sudden reversals in diplomatic stances.


                            I actually mentioned that. My comment about the 100 Days, and that he tried to come back and failed was exactly my point.
                            Sorry missed the last part, that's what I get for trying to read the forum in between working.

                            You can't entirely separate the two since they're two sides of the same coin, but I can give some examples of diplomatic shifts with long term consequences. From the top of my head, the formation of the modern state of Israel, the Syracusians switching to backing the Carthaginians, the Persians switching between backing the Pelopennesian League and the Delian League, Nixon going to China, Ben Franklin's trips to France for support, NAFTA, the formation of the European Union and the Catholic church arbitrating the dispute over the new world (and Africa and Asia) between Spain and Portugal. War, or the possibility of war, is tied up in a lot of these, but that's because you cannot separate it from diplomacy.

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                            • Tzmisce anarchs are totally fine. I don't get why people don't like them. All those weird thematic ideas you have keeping them out of the anarchs are for elders, and Tzmisce aren't a clan entirely made up of elders.


                              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                Well the Brujah are disloyal and were the biggest threat to the Camarilla within the Camarilla.

                                You also forgot the Sorcerer Caste of the Assamites who defected en masse.

                                So the Lasombra are much better to recruit than the Brujah, especially since they trashed the Sabbat ob their way out.

                                And the Schismatics are 1/3rd of the Assamites according to Assamite Revised, with another 1/3rd defecting to the Sabbat.

                                This is just my opinion, though.

                                You could disagree.


                                All Banu Haqim are sorcerer caste now. Their disciplines dictate that it's a matter of education not Blood Line as to whether you have rituals or not.

                                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                                Tzmisce anarchs are totally fine. I don't get why people don't like them. All those weird thematic ideas you have keeping them out of the anarchs are for elders, and Tzmisce aren't a clan entirely made up of elders.
                                Given how picky they used to be about the embrace, those ideas where for neonates.

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