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  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    'you're special and have unique powers so you get to stand higher than a few people' thing that v5 is doing.
    I can't say that any of the V5 material I've read has had this vibe. None of it seems to be about vampire superheroes, power and responsibility, etc. If you can point out pieces of the text that you think reflect this I would be pleased to revise my opinion, because I get none of this from what I've seen. I've definitely seen plenty of streamed games that have that kind of vibe, like I definitely agree regarding LA By Night, but that's hardly indicative of the writing in the books.

    Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    Retcons that mess with the universe make it more difficult to maintain such continuity. When a core part of your Vampire campaign is a Ravnos who’s resided in Boston since practically it’s founding now suddenly needs more than half-a-dozen havens scattered around the city to not burn to death in their sleep its a problem. When your Thin-blooded characters suddenly lose their disciplines and get some nonsense Alchemy ability it’s a problem.
    I'm sorry, but it seems like your complaint is that the product of an entire team of writers and designers who are trying to revitalize a game setting with a fresh edition for both long-time players and brand new entrants to the hobby aren't catering to your personal specific tastes and game style. You can feel that way, but it's hardly a failing on their part to do that. If you're determined for everything to stay exactly as it was when you were playing an older edition, why not...keep playing that older edition? It hasn't gone anywhere.
    Last edited by IllithidActivity; 12-29-2020, 04:14 PM.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Are you a fan of Demon: The Fallen? If not, allow me to explain.

      The Neverborn are Judeo-Christian Demons above Oblivion and the Labyrinth is where they were imprisoned. It was a really clever bit of world-building, IMHO.

      Linking the Lasombra to Oblivion explains their pseudo-Catholicism, demon-worship, and ties to the Underworld.

      I specifically said Cosmic Horror, if I wanted christian horror, the real actions and followers of that faith give more than enough, it was the unknowns outside reality, possibly the same unknowns the nephandi dealt with, possibly something totally other that grabbed me, the judeo christian DtF demons really don't have the same impact.
      Last edited by Taggie; 12-29-2020, 04:44 PM.

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      • This thread just seems to have turned into the usual ‘lets manufacture reasons to hate V5’ hole for indignation junkies.

        All this from a free supplement!

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        • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
          This thread just seems to have turned into the usual ‘lets manufacture reasons to hate V5’ hole for indignation junkies.

          All this from a free supplement!


          Thanks for assuming that no one can actually be raising issues and that it has to be 'manufactured, nice.

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          • accidental double post, please delete.

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            • Originally posted by IllithidActivity View Post
              I'm sorry, but it seems like your complaint is that the product of an entire team of writers and designers who are trying to revitalize a game setting with a fresh edition for both long-time players and brand new entrants to the hobby aren't catering to your personal specific tastes and game style. You can feel that way, but it's hardly a failing on their part to do that. If you're determined for everything to stay exactly as it was when you were playing an older edition, why not...keep playing that older edition? It hasn't gone anywhere.
              You're mistaking my examples for my argument. My argument is that the claim that V5 is happening in the same universe as V20 (and prior editions) is nonsense because the changes between editions don't allow for any sort of easy conversion.

              CTPhipps is the one saying all these differences and retcons still exist in the precise same universe as V20... I bring up all the conversion problems specifically to show how, if his claim was true, then these things should have been easy to bring over instead of resulting in a multitude of headaches because of the numerous differences in setting and lore.

              My examples include various PCs whose entire setup would have to change radically to fit the new lore.

              My point is that life would actually be a lot easier if we could just admit that V5 is the New52 of Vampire the Masquerade because then we could end a lot of these frankly torturous rationalizations of how radical changes aren't actually radical and just say;

              - "Yeah, in this universe Vlauderie was never a thing so the Lasombra weren't restrained by it in leaving the Sabbat. This also made the Sabbat more prone to fracturing in this reality which is why it is largely absent from the V5 setting."

              - "In this reality Ravnos have always had the Doomed bane instead of their vice compulsion so you don't need a different set of mechanics for running a Ravnos in a game set in the 1800s. Their Chimestry was always an amalgam that required ranks in Presence before you could learn it."

              - "In this reality Thinbloods always developed Alchemy instead of weaker disciplines."

              - "In this reality Vicissitude was always an offshoot of Protean that requires ranks in the Dominate discipline to employ."

              See how much easier that is than "actually this piece of obscure lore, if twisted 90 degrees and welded onto this other piece of obscure lore I've bent over backward completely explains why X in V5 is exactly the same as it was in V20 as long as you don't look over in that corner where another piece of contradictory lore happens to be sitting?

              There's nothing to be ashamed of in admitting that its the next reality over from V20 (with V3, V2/1, W3/2/1, M3, M2/1, etc. as other nearby realities) or in being a fan of its lore any more than saying "I prefer the Golden/Silver/Post-Crisis/New Earth/New-52/Rebirth era of DC comics" is.

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              • My few cents: It kinda has to be a seperate continuity. Hypothetically, If I had a long running character with a discipline spread like this:

                Celerity 3
                Obfuscate 3 (which I use to give myself multiple identities)
                Protean 4
                Vicissitude 3

                Or a character like this

                Obfuscate 3 (again, multiple consistent identities)
                Quietus (sorcerer) 3
                Thaumaturgy (Dur-an-Ki) 4
                --path of blood 4
                --Lure of flames 4
                --path of conjuring 3
                -- movement of the mind 3

                Or maybe
                Auspex 5
                dominate 5


                or... yeah, we could go on

                How could I translate these characters into v5? I can't. I've not even thrown a 6 in, and yet I still can't fathom how I could throw these characters in without depriving them of the fundamental abilities they've relied on and which I would've had fun with. Objectively speaking, these hypothetical characters would've carried me through four editions. Now they don't work. Is this a withering? If not, it must be a reboot.


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                • Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post

                  - "In this reality Ravnos have always had the Doomed bane instead of their vice compulsion so you don't need a different set of mechanics for running a Ravnos in a game set in the 1800s. Their Chimestry was always an amalgam that required ranks in Presence before you could learn it."
                  In fairness that specific Bane is described as the result of the Antediluvian's destruction, so their acquiring that Bane recently doesn't break existing continuity. More generally, though, I agree that the mechanics are difficult to reconcile between editions. That doesn't bother me because (a) I largely prefer the new mechanics and (b) I think primarily in terms of story rather than mechanics, so I'm comfortable with the rationalization "if the story's the same, it's the same world, irrespective of altered mechanics".

                  For people who find that attitude more of a wrench, then I think your idea of treating V5 as a parallel reality where the story was the same but the new mechanics have "always" been true makes sense - and has the advantage that we can have V5 treatments for Dark Ages and Victorian without any continuity niggles.

                  This is not, I emphasize, an attack on V5, or indeed V20. I started with Masquerade in 1992. I love the V20 and especially DA20 material. I am also really enjoying the V5 material. The "Chicago trilogy", Fall of London and Cults of the Blood Gods were all first-rate, as was the Companion. I'm simply agreeing that some of the mechanical changes - which I like - are nonetheless a bit of a stretch to retcon, if you care deeply about mechanical consistency.

                  Which, to be honest, I don't, but I do like both the MET and V5 metaplots, and the two-realities approach saves me from needing to choose between them.

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                  • Originally posted by Taggie View Post


                    I specifically said Cosmic Horror, if I wanted christian horror, the real actions and followers of that faith give more than enough, it was the unknowns outside reality, possibly the same unknowns the nephandi dealt with, possibly something totally other that grabbed me, the judeo christian DtF demons really don't have the same impact.
                    Can we avoid taking pot shots at real religion?

                    But the Lasombra are an explictly real-religion themed group so its weird to make them the Cosmic Horror one. However, I think it's worth an entire thread to discuss the role of Cosmic Horror vs. Personal Horror in V:TM if you want to make it.



                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post



                      Thanks for assuming that no one can actually be raising issues and that it has to be 'manufactured, nice.
                      It’s not an assumption. It is based on the evidence of this thread. White Wolf/Paradox could issue a free pamphlet on how to maintain a healthy diet these days, and people would find reasons within it to starve.
                      Last edited by Trippy; 12-29-2020, 07:03 PM.

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                      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                        This thread just seems to have turned into the usual ‘lets manufacture reasons to hate V5’ hole for indignation junkies.

                        All this from a free supplement!
                        And it's always the same people! Go figures!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          Can we avoid taking pot shots at real religion?

                          But the Lasombra are an explictly real-religion themed group so its weird to make them the Cosmic Horror one. However, I think it's worth an entire thread to discuss the role of Cosmic Horror vs. Personal Horror in V:TM if you want to make it.
                          I wanted to comment on the second part. In canon while it's true the Lasombra tied themselves to real world religions (mainly the Abrahamic faiths) most of them did so because of the material gain they could obtain from that choice of "domain". Especially during the Long Night this was a really smart move because religions like Christianity and Islam were immensely powerful and commanded more power than even secular monarchs. Several Lasombras were on the Road of Heaven, true, but most of them just took religious trappings and power bases because it benefitted them the most. Had the Ventrue been able to do the same during the Dark Ages, they would have done it as well and in some case they did (see Fabrizio Ulfila)

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                          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
                            This thread just seems to have turned into the usual ‘lets manufacture reasons to hate V5’ hole for indignation junkies.

                            All this from a free supplement!
                            Have you ever seen an album people had to buy generate as much outrage as U2's Songs of Innocence being given to half a billion people free of charge?

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                            • Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post

                              Have you ever seen an album people had to buy generate as much outrage as U2's Songs of Innocence being given to half a billion people free of charge?
                              Well, there is that! Having said that, it was kinda enforced on their account. In this case, you’d have to deliberately register and download in order to complain. Not a barrier to some...
                              Last edited by Trippy; 12-29-2020, 10:13 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post

                                That’s why I find it just so much easier to say V5 is the next reality over from the previous editions so while some things are similar there, others are very different (like a pair of revenant NPCs in the setting actually making more sense as Thinbloods in the new system). There’s just no way to plausibly connect the previously established setting (again, moving forward in the same setting is a hallmark of my campaigns and one of my players’ favorite elements... seeing the after effects of all their previous PC’s decisions) if I were to convert to V5.
                                Well that's fine for you but for some of us, the whole appeal of V5 is following up the changes of earlier editions like Chicago by Night and with BJD.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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