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  • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

    It’s not an assumption. It is based on the evidence of this thread. White Wolf/Paradox could issue a free pamphlet on how to maintain a healthy diet these days, and people would find reasons within it to starve.
    Why would being free give the setting and rules information inside the book a pass? Given that it contains the rules for several clans, are we to just accept the fundamental and massive alterations to those clans?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

      Why would being free give the setting and rules information inside the book a pass? Given that it contains the rules for several clans, are we to just accept the fundamental and massive alterations to those clans?
      Other fans do not perceive the 'alterations' as you describe them in the way you describe them, and flatly if you don’t appreciate what is given to you for free, then you should consider moving on and giving it all a pass.

      Alternatively, try writing a letter of complaint to the police or sue Paradox Entertainment for ruining your childhood.
      Last edited by Trippy; 12-30-2020, 03:41 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
        Other fans do not perceive the 'alterations' as you describe them in the way you describe them, and flatly if you don’t appreciate what is given to you for free, then you should consider moving on and giving it all a pass.

        Alternatively, try writing a letter of complaint to the police or sue Paradox Entertainment for ruining your childhood.


        right, right, so anyone who doesn't agree with you is a mindless child... I see. Also, who mentioned suing them? Or indeed the Police? You seem to view any dissent from the party line as a heresy to be baited into breaching forum rules.
        Last edited by Taggie; 12-30-2020, 04:51 AM.

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        • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
          right, right, so anyone who doesn't agree with you is a mindless child... I see. Also, who mentioned suing them? Or indeed the Police?
          Well that seems to be your basic stance against the writers of this book (and V5 in general) - anybody who writes anything that doesn’t fit your own preconceived view is automatically worthy of terminal bellyaching.

          And if you didn’t pick up on sarcasm before, maybe you should write and complain to the lead singer of Echo and the Bunnymen instead?



          Comment


          • Originally posted by Trippy View Post

            Well that seems to be your basic stance against the writers of this book (and V5 in general) - anybody who writes anything that doesn’t fit your own preconceived view is automatically worthy of terminal bellyaching.

            And if you didn’t pick up on sarcasm before, maybe you should write and complain to the lead singer of Echo and the Bunnymen instead?



            you do know that defending a company on a forum isn't how you get a job at said company

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Trippy View Post
              Other fans do not perceive the 'alterations' as you describe them in the way you describe them, and flatly if you don’t appreciate what is given to you for free, then you should consider moving on and giving it all a pass.

              Alternatively, try writing a letter of complaint to the police or sue Paradox Entertainment for ruining your childhood.
              This is combative.

              He didn't like the book, that's his business.



              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by archderd View Post
                you do know that defending a company on a forum isn't how you get a job at said company
                Yes, I did know that. I am happy in my employment.

                Comment


                • Trippy if you have an issue with some posters, just report and the mods (Phipps) will handle it,
                  it's better to involve a third party to avoid flame wars


                  -

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
                    Trippy if you have an issue with some posters, just report and the mods (Phipps) will handle it,
                    it's better to involve a third party to avoid flame wars
                    You’re right of course, but by golly it’s frustrating reading through this stuff all the time. The Facebook and other online fora are more constructive at least. Basically, the Companion has been a good supplement, although I’d like to see the new Clans put into hardcopy at some point (in another supplement).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post



                      But the Lasombra are an explictly real-religion themed group so its weird to make them the Cosmic Horror one. However, I think it's worth an entire thread to discuss the role of Cosmic Horror vs. Personal Horror in V:TM if you want to make it.
                      Would that be a Cosmic Horror in V:tM or Cosmic Horror in WoD? Because the what gives Abyss Mysticism, and the Path of Night (as well as Vis and Koldunism in general, however badly the implementation of that idea sucked.) the CH vibe, is related to how they tie into themes from Mage, and to an extent WtA...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        Well that's fine for you but for some of us, the whole appeal of V5 is following up the changes of earlier editions like Chicago by Night and with BJD.
                        Isn't that a question of story, though? Not mechanics? It's perfectly possible to use the V5 metaplot with V20 or earlier rules, or conversely, use V5 mechanics with earlier settings. You could make Kevin Jackson Prince of Chicago and have Decker as a police-state tyrant using the mechanics and stats in the original Chicago and Milwaukee by Night books, if you wished. There was a rather good Victorian V5 on that charity play-through just recently. Just assume matching histories in each reality with individual characters having roughly equivalent but different abilities.

                        I'm not really bothered either way. I'm just as happy to suspend disbelief and retcon. But if V5 is the same reality as V20, you do need to retcon.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          Well that's fine for you but for some of us, the whole appeal of V5 is following up the changes of earlier editions like Chicago by Night and with BJD.
                          None of which requires V5 to be in the precise identical universe as V20... any more than Revised V, W and M all having the Red Star and a shared destruction in the unworld causing the Wraith maelstrom and the Mage avatar storm require them to all be in the precise same universe with each other vs. being in neighboring universes that are very close to each other.

                          Events play out almost identically in each parallel universe, but there are minor differences where mechanics and/or canon conflicts (ex. in the V5 universe Chimerstry has always been an Obfuscate power that required Presence).

                          Even more fundamentally, saying their parallel universes just makes logical sense for the simple reason we’re not all playing in the same shared universe. Half the Vamps in the V5 Chicago By Night book have been dead for decades in my ongoing Mage campaign. They didn’t automatically die in anyone else’s campaign so clearly these events happened in separate universes.

                          Similarly, no version of Gehenna as laid out in the final book of the Revised line ever happened in the V20 universe so, again, clearly a separate universe from the one where, say, Wormwood was canon.

                          The main reason I like it is that it’s just a more harmonious answer than your efforts to hammer lore bits together while selectively ignoring others to try and justify changes with all the associated animosity and strife... when “V5 happens in a parallel universe where it’s mostly the same except for [insert version differences here]” gives you everything you want (its still continuing all the lore you’re interested in continuing) while also neatly putting the complaints to rest (because all the contradictory lore people are fighting you over just doesn’t exist in the V5 universe).

                          Because of your position as Mod, your pronouncements are given more weight, almost as if they’re official OP pronouncements on canon rather than your personal opinions. It because of this extra weight and your personal beliefs that it all needs to fit together into a coherent one universe model that results in excessive pushback and acrimony (where as if you were just another poster more people would be willing to let things go as a difference of opinion... just as you dismiss my idea as a difference of opinion because I’m just another poster).

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

                            Isn't that a question of story, though? Not mechanics? It's perfectly possible to use the V5 metaplot with V20 or earlier rules, or conversely, use V5 mechanics with earlier settings. You could make Kevin Jackson Prince of Chicago and have Decker as a police-state tyrant using the mechanics and stats in the original Chicago and Milwaukee by Night books, if you wished. There was a rather good Victorian V5 on that charity play-through just recently. Just assume matching histories in each reality with individual characters having roughly equivalent but different abilities.

                            I'm not really bothered either way. I'm just as happy to suspend disbelief and retcon. But if V5 is the same reality as V20, you do need to retcon.
                            I don't really think mechanics have ever reflected the in-story reality of the setting.

                            Story trumps all.

                            But mind you, I've never actually considered each clan to have "Three" Disciplines that are more important than other Disciplines for the most part. I don't think of the Weaknesses as things that are really central to their characterization. I feel that was a mistake of game design. Vampires don't have Humanity or Path scores, they're just extrapolations of story elements.

                            Which should always be the primary concern.

                            If you're overly focused on the rules, I feel like you lose what's most important in V:TM which is a focus on the characterization of the NPCs and interaction with the pCs.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              I don't really think mechanics have ever reflected the in-story reality of the setting.

                              Story trumps all.

                              But mind you, I've never actually considered each clan to have "Three" Disciplines that are more important than other Disciplines for the most part. I don't think of the Weaknesses as things that are really central to their characterization. I feel that was a mistake of game design. Vampires don't have Humanity or Path scores, they're just extrapolations of story elements.

                              Which should always be the primary concern.

                              If you're overly focused on the rules, I feel like you lose what's most important in V:TM which is a focus on the characterization of the NPCs and interaction with the pCs.
                              Well, you know my view, rules are the skeleton, setting is the sinew, plot is the muscle, they have to work together to build the game, if the rules don't reflect the setting, or the story ignores rules, things collapse.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                I don't really think mechanics have ever reflected the in-story reality of the setting.

                                Story trumps all.

                                But mind you, I've never actually considered each clan to have "Three" Disciplines that are more important than other Disciplines for the most part. I don't think of the Weaknesses as things that are really central to their characterization. I feel that was a mistake of game design. Vampires don't have Humanity or Path scores, they're just extrapolations of story elements.

                                Which should always be the primary concern.

                                If you're overly focused on the rules, I feel like you lose what's most important in V:TM which is a focus on the characterization of the NPCs and interaction with the pCs.
                                I'm more interested in character than rules as well. But mechanical changes have character- and story-relevant effects, because "mechanics" is simply a shorthand for "what a character can and cannot do". Making it easier for the Ravnos to enchant people or the Salubri to make people forget that they were there is likely to affect character choices and histories. Taking Auspex away from the Tzimisce shifts the clan away from its "mystic" aspect and towards its "warlord" one. These things do impact the in-story reality. They don't necessarily involve gross changes to the big picture, but they're changes nonetheless.

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