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  • Originally posted by archderd View Post

    how do you not see the obvious glaring issue here?
    how do you not see that every social setback the ravnos had suffered in there entire history would've never happened if they had presence. how do you not see that it makes no sense for the clan that has the charisma that every other clan that has it uses to try shape society to their whims somehow ended up as outcasts that are fighting with the tree hobos for food scraps. why wouldn't they just cultivate a type of herd that the gangrel wouldn't even be interested in?
    Because that's silly?

    People hate Setites and the Setites have Presence.

    Also, I am confused because I pointed out Ravnos cannot sleep within a mile of the place they were last night. Ergo they cannot cultivate stationary herd.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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    • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

      Because that's silly?

      People hate Setites and the Setites have Presence.

      Also, I am confused because I pointed out Ravnos cannot sleep within a mile of the place they were last night. Ergo they cannot cultivate stationary herd.

      Setites aren't scrambling for scraps as outcasts. Plus the Ravnos having to keep multiple havens doesn't prevent them having a stationary herd, it's not like they have to sleep in the same haven with them.

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      • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
        Setites aren't scrambling for scraps as outcasts. Plus the Ravnos having to keep multiple havens doesn't prevent them having a stationary herd, it's not like they have to sleep in the same haven with them.
        The 5E version of the Ravnos is now the "Confidence Man" Clan. They're people who emphasize that they're liars, cheats, and people with a superficial charmingness that ends up making them dire enemies but they've already left by the time you realize that they've been had. The snake oil salesman, carnie, traveling preachers, and so on.

        While its possible for Ravnos to be able to stay in rough proximity to a single area for awhile, it is extremely difficult and the vast majority of them are not going to stay and make friends. Hence the vast majority of people that they are going to feed on as a herd are going to be travelers themselves. Now you may believe that the power of Presence will overcome the Ravnos weakness but I think the implication is that Ravnos, unlike Setites or Toreador, are not going to be able to stay in one place long enough to solidify their position. As such, the Ravnos are people who make a big bold impression and leave behind intense bad feelings.

        Even then, Ravnos has always been people supposed to be ingratiating. Unlike, say, Caitiff or Thin Bloods who never get their foot in the door in the first place.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

          The 5E version of the Ravnos is now the "Confidence Man" Clan. They're people who emphasize that they're liars, cheats, and people with a superficial charmingness that ends up making them dire enemies but they've already left by the time you realize that they've been had. The snake oil salesman, carnie, traveling preachers, and so on.

          While its possible for Ravnos to be able to stay in rough proximity to a single area for awhile, it is extremely difficult and the vast majority of them are not going to stay and make friends. Hence the vast majority of people that they are going to feed on as a herd are going to be travelers themselves. Now you may believe that the power of Presence will overcome the Ravnos weakness but I think the implication is that Ravnos, unlike Setites or Toreador, are not going to be able to stay in one place long enough to solidify their position. As such, the Ravnos are people who make a big bold impression and leave behind intense bad feelings.
          you really underestimate how powerful presence can be. presence is strong enough that ppl will abandon their old lives to be with a kindred with presence. if the ravnos had presence then they'd easily build large nomadic communities that'd follow them around. the current reality of nomadic communities would not exist if the ravnos had presence.

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          • Originally posted by archderd View Post

            you really underestimate how powerful presence can be. presence is strong enough that ppl will abandon their old lives to be with a kindred with presence. if the ravnos had presence then they'd easily build large nomadic communities that'd follow them around. the current reality of nomadic communities would not exist if the ravnos had presence.
            Forgive my upcoming sarcasm: Well, I am convinced. Presence is such a powerful and effective tool that in no way would a Clan with it be a bunch of disgruntled rabble that do not wield much overt political influence or are dismissed as a bunch of peasants.



            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              Forgive my upcoming sarcasm: Well, I am convinced. Presence is such a powerful and effective tool that in no way would a Clan with it be a bunch of disgruntled rabble that do not wield much overt political influence or are dismissed as a bunch of peasants.



              They have always wielded a lot more power and influence than the Ravnos have ever managed.

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              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                Ravnos cannot sleep within a mile of the place they were last night.
                Does anyone else think that this is much too frequent compared to typical nomadic lifestyles?

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                • I do. I think a weakness forcing them to move on after a week (or so) would have worked a lot better for player characters than forcing them to move constantly with a weekly reset. Then again, if one supposes that the new weakness itself is a big part of why they're almost extinct rather than having built their numbers back up somewhat in the decades since the Week of Nightmares... well, it works damn near perfectly to explain that.

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                  • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                    They have always wielded a lot more power and influence than the Ravnos have ever managed.
                    The Ravnos ruled India.

                    One of the largest most ancient empires in history. The Camarilla is not the "be end all" of Kindred civilization. I wouldn't be surprised if they also wield power in a lot of other courts than the typical European ones.

                    I also imagine they did about as well as any other Antitribu in the Sabbat.

                    I'm curious also how the Ravnos did among the Ashirra.
                    Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-14-2021, 05:08 PM.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Matt the Bruins fan View Post
                      I do. I think a weakness forcing them to move on after a week (or so) would have worked a lot better for player characters than forcing them to move constantly with a weekly reset. Then again, if one supposes that the new weakness itself is a big part of why they're almost extinct rather than having built their numbers back up somewhat in the decades since the Week of Nightmares... well, it works damn near perfectly to explain that.

                      The only issue with using a "week" is that the 7 day time span is an artificial construct of time. Originally the Romans had a "week" of ten days. It isn't based on anything real like the rotation of the Earth, cycle of the moon, or the solar year that people observe in nature. Those periods of time are universal to all cultures and all time periods. So I would lean more to a cycle of the moon or month (just to keep things easy on the ST and players). If one feels that is too long, the ST could compensate by making the distance they need to go to longer; or a longer time before they could move back to the original area.

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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        Forgive my upcoming sarcasm: Well, I am convinced. Presence is such a powerful and effective tool that in no way would a Clan with it be a bunch of disgruntled rabble that do not wield much overt political influence or are dismissed as a bunch of peasants.


                        ah my apologies i forgot about the clan defined by being aimless and constantly self-sabotaging but in the 5 minutes it stops with such behavior reshapes society on an almost global level and at all other times is the leading force behind a mayor faction in the setting totally proves that a clan that moves around a bunch can't reshape nomadic culture to their universal benefit.

                        if it was hard to notice, that was sarcasm
                        Last edited by archderd; 03-14-2021, 06:13 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by archderd View Post


                          ah my apologies i forgot about the clan defined by being aimless and constantly self-sabotaging but in the 5 minutes it stops with such behavior reshapes society on an almost global level and at all other times is the leading force behind a mayor faction in the setting totally proves that a clan that moves around a bunch can't reshape nomadic culture to their universal benefit.

                          if it was hard to notice, that was sarcasm
                          Yeah, I picked up on that. However, you've yet to give an example that the Ravnos can't be disliked with nomadic herds.

                          "Presence trumps everything!"

                          Except for the Brujah who very are often poor and disliked.

                          Except for the Followers of Set who are loathed throughout the Kindred world.

                          And the fact the Ravnos are NOT universally disliked but the most powerful clan in Eastern Asia (or at least were).

                          I'm sure my argument holds no water.

                          And you just basically say, "Their weakness wouldn't impact anything but they'd have huge traveling cults!"


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            Yeah, I picked up on that. However, you've yet to give an example that the Ravnos can't be disliked with nomadic herds.

                            "Presence trumps everything!"

                            Except for the Brujah who very are often poor and disliked.

                            Except for the Followers of Set who are loathed throughout the Kindred world.

                            And the fact the Ravnos are NOT universally disliked but the most powerful clan in Eastern Asia (or at least were).

                            I'm sure my argument holds no water.

                            And you just basically say, "Their weakness wouldn't impact anything but they'd have huge traveling cults!"
                            it doesn't hold water, you're just not listening to what i'm saying.

                            the brujah build their herds by creating massive followings of rebels and anti-establishment movements.

                            the setites build their herds by creating massive followings of loyal cultists

                            the ventrue build their herds by creating massive followings of loyal subjects to rule over

                            the toreador build their herds by creating massive followings of enamored fans and passionate artists

                            the ravnos are fighting over herds with the clan of forest hobos.

                            one of these is not like the others, can you guess which one and why.

                            i'll give you the answer it's the ravnos, cuz they're not a clan that at the very least tries to shape society to their wants and needs like the other 4, that's why presence doesn't make sense for them.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by archderd View Post

                              it doesn't hold water, you're just not listening to what i'm saying.

                              the brujah build their herds by creating massive followings of rebels and anti-establishment movements.

                              the setites build their herds by creating massive followings of loyal cultists

                              the ventrue build their herds by creating massive followings of loyal subjects to rule over

                              the toreador build their herds by creating massive followings of enamored fans and passionate artists

                              the ravnos are fighting over herds with the clan of forest hobos.

                              one of these is not like the others, can you guess which one and why.

                              i'll give you the answer it's the ravnos, cuz they're not a clan that at the very least tries to shape society to their wants and needs like the other 4, that's why presence doesn't make sense for them.
                              Except the majority of Brujah are NOT heads of massive numbers of groups. They do not wield vast influence and are just....people.

                              See literally the hundreds of examples of Brujah NPCs who are just guys who punch people and vaguely likable.

                              The Ravnos also have an Empire in India or did.

                              So why are you ignoring that?

                              But hey, you have your opinion and I've said my peace.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                                Except the majority of Brujah are NOT heads of massive numbers of groups. They do not wield vast influence and are just....people.

                                See literally the hundreds of examples of Brujah NPCs who are just guys who punch people and vaguely likable.

                                The Ravnos also have an Empire in India or did.

                                So why are you ignoring that?

                                But hey, you have your opinion and I've said my peace.
                                said brujah NPCs usually aren't due to disinterest in creating followings (usually because of moral convictions against the very idea of a herd) or massive incompetence on an individual level. brujah can absolutely build herds in the form of groupies, gangs or some form of movement, most don't do so in modern nights because out of all the clans brujah are the most modern in their believes and the idea of owning ppl is kinda frowned upon these days.

                                and i'm ignoring the eastern ravnos because they're not relevant to the current conversation, it's clearly not the direction V5 is taking the clan and even then they weren't about creating loyal followings because ruling over a country isn't the same as leading a country.
                                Last edited by archderd; 03-15-2021, 08:30 AM.

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