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  • #91
    Originally posted by JezMiller View Post

    That's one of the things I dislike about V5. I don't mourn the demise of 6+ Disciplines and demigod Methuselahs - I disliked both - but allowing elder characters to trade great versatility for power would be better than forcing their Discipline development to a screeching halt
    Wait.. what? You dislike 6+ Elder Disciplines, but then say you don't like that their development now has been borked with how V5 is working it with Caps and limited power slots per dot? Sorry, I'm not really understanding your logic here.
    Last edited by Shakanaka; 12-17-2020, 06:02 PM.


    Jade Kingdom Warrior

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post
      surprised they didn't mention that in the errata, I was certain they were gonna retcon it
      Me too. I wonder if an "Elders" book is in the works?

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

        Wait.. what? You dislike 6+ Elder Disciplines, but then say you don't like that their development now has been borked with how V5 is working it with Caps and limited power slots per dot? Sorry, I'm not really understanding your logic here.

        I'm not interested in elders with level 9 Presence powers that can affect entire cities
        I don't see why an elder character should have to sacrifice Earth Meld if they want the wolf, bat and mist forms

        As I said - power and versatility

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        • #94
          Well that's the thing. 6+ Powers allowed Elders to have all their abilities without anything having to be nonsensically slotted out for gameplay reasons. V5 is anti-versatility in this regard and is not made for Elder playstyles in mind. Also a level 9 Discipline is basically Antediluvian level of Discipline or in the ballpark of 8000+ year old Methuselahs having them (such as Baba Yaga). Elders as we know it shouldn't and don't have that range at all so your perceived complaint is nonsensical.

          (EDIT: And even then, Baba Yaga herself doesn't even HAVE a 9+ Discipline. The only ability she has in 9 via her stat sheet is Thaumaturgy and that's not an inherent Discipline Cainites possess, you have to learn it all yourself (it also helped that the Baba Yaga was already a Shaman pre-Embrace already). All of her "natural" Disciplines that are non-Thaumaturgy are 8 or 7 at the highest)

          Most of the complaints against 6+ Disciplines are just aggreaved theoretics on scenarios that have never happened in their chronicles or fiats of just having a bad ST than good arguments against 6+ Disciplines; especially concerning with what we're left with in V5 as of now.
          Last edited by Shakanaka; 12-17-2020, 07:04 PM.


          Jade Kingdom Warrior

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          • #95
            You don't need to be 8000+ years old to have a Discipline at nine dots. Children of the Night suggests giving vampires a number of Discipline dots equal to the square root of their age, but offers no guidelines other than what works for your chronicle. When you say that a Discipline level is basically Antediluvian, that's 10 dots. The number you can have when you're 3rd generation.

            Most methuselahs in VtM aren't written with nine dots, but that's not a rule that anyone set. That's just the way they were written. If Menele and Helena can have at least one eight dot discipline at 3,000 years you're not looking at waiting another 5,000 for that last dot.

            Thaumaturgy is absolutely a discipline and as such yes it does count as a nine dot discipline.

            It's fine to have opinions, and "it takes a long time to get nine dots" is a fine opinion, but it's not a book rule. If it were, you wouldn't have to look at methuselah character sheets to cite all the 8s (and handwave a 9 away) as evidence.

            Limiting Disciplines to 5 dots is fine. It's a valid game design choice with its own consequences, In this case it means not having elders and methuselahs who can, I don't know, view a distant location and dominate everyone there telepathically or whatever. It's not game breaking, and there are a lot of reasons for making such a choice as Justin Achilli did when developing Vampire: The Requiem, which worked out fairly well for that game. People do have good reasons for preferring it.
            Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 12-17-2020, 10:34 PM.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

              Eh, its just some simple Inductive Reasoning with how everything in this edition has been panning out so far. Though I am certainly hopeful my prediction isn't right, but again, that's just really hopeful.
              V5 is under new management, and Justin has treated the Sabbat well in the past.

              I do understand your feelings about how everything's panned out so far. I've been pretty turned off due to several storyline/metaplot decisions.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Damian May View Post


                It also makes the development of Revenant Families and the over reliance on Ghouls a thing that there was never any need for if they had Dominate.
                I assumed they overelied on ghouls and Revenant Families because they're a bunch of flesh-crafting mad scientists.


                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                  I assumed they overelied on ghouls and Revenant Families because they're a bunch of flesh-crafting mad scientists.
                  When centuries of breeding won't get you the perfect servants drastic measures need to be taken for the desired results


                  You've been playing around the magic that is black
                  But all the powerful magical mysteries never gave a single thing back

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                  • #99
                    I think people are exaggerating the impact of Tzimisce having Dominate. That's usually a one-on-one power, not a group power like Presence can be. I don't think it can just eliminate the need for other methods.

                    Plus, it's not as if there's ever been a firewall between Kindred and the common out of clan disciplines (Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Dominate, Fortitude, Obfuscate, Potence, Presence). Tzimisce with dominate aren't a new thing, just having it as a clan discipline.
                    Last edited by Resplendent Fire; 12-18-2020, 01:37 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
                      Most methuselahs in VtM aren't written with nine dots, but that's not a rule that anyone set. That's just the way they were written. If Menele and Helena can have at least one eight dot discipline at 3,000 years you're not looking at waiting another 5,000 for that last dot.
                      Yes, the rules didn't say anything explicitly, so I simply observe from the few instances of precedent to take from (i.e how they were written in the first place). Baba Yaga who's 7000+ years old (much more than Menele and Helena) doesn't have any "natural" Disciplines in 9 at all. Thaumaturgy is a not a "natural" Discipline that is in-built from among the spread of Cainites, nowhere did I say Thaumaturgy was NOT a Discipline. And further, Thaumaturgy is something you have to especially get out on your own to learn.

                      The fact Baba Yaga has a 9 in Thaum is easily tied to the fact of her pre-Embrace background (because y'know, she was literally a Shaman). If Baba Yaga hasn't gotten 1 natural Cainite Discipline to 9 and she's 7000+ years old.. It basically blows the notion that "Menele and Helena can have at least one eight dot discipline at 3,000 years you're not looking at waiting another 5,000 for that last dot" (and Baba Yaga isn't getting any of that anytime soon because Final Death).

                      The main meat of what I was speaking about was Elders primarily, extrapolated on what Discipline range they should realistically have from written material; so yes, that's why I'm looking how Elders should contrast from Methuselahs and Antediluvians because there aren't outright written rules. If his ST (since they dictate the story, taking into account what to put in and what not) is bringing in Elders with a 9 Discipline, that's on his ST doing something iffy than any valid argument against 6+ Disciplines. I just find his argument funny because 6+ Disciplines has what he desires of having everything being intact and not slotted out, while still having versatility in the fact powers don't have to be have to be left out for a certain one and 6+ Disciplines having more "omph".


                      Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
                      Limiting Disciplines to 5 dots is fine. It's a valid game design choice with its own consequences, In this case it means not having elders and methuselahs who can, I don't know, view a distant location and dominate everyone there telepathically or whatever.
                      Ah so its perfectly valid that now STs (or *gasp* PLAYERS xxxxD) don't have no resources at all to work with if they every want an Elder playstyle or emulation. Its perfectly valid that in Tabletop games that is supposed to have infinite avenues on how it can be taken, more advanced Disciplines are completely capped off and locked away for some nonsensical reason and a major part of the VTM setting (Elders) just up and left... Funny.

                      Originally posted by Resplendent Fire
                      It's not game breaking, and there are a lot of reasons for making such a choice as Justin Achilli did when developing Vampire: The Requiem, which worked out fairly well for that game.
                      VTR is its own game. Its good, but its not VTM and the lines are different for reason catering for different things. To have VTR shoved in VTM?.... no, just no.

                      Also with V5 Mechanic logic, things that were done before it came out just isn't possible anymore or just as wonky logics to attempt to justify them in (How do I explain sleeping methuselah powers in V5? - Onyx Path Forums (theonyxpath.com)) regards to Elders or other higher level Vampires.. It's pretty on the nose to say it's not game breaking..

                      EDIT: And actually its bizarre. That example the poster gave was like a reference to Michael.. but what are the odds of that character ever being in a chronicle they'd run at all? lol. Again, aggreaved theoretics.
                      Last edited by Shakanaka; 12-18-2020, 02:09 AM.


                      Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                      • Originally posted by Resplendent Fire View Post
                        I think people are exaggerating the impact of Tzimisce having Dominate. That's usually a one-on-one power, not a group power like Presence can be. I don't think it can just eliminate the need for other methods.

                        Plus, it's not as if there's ever been a firewall between Kindred and the common out of clan disciplines (Animalism, Auspex, Celerity, Dominate, Fortitude, Obfuscate, Potence, Presence). Tzimisce with dominate aren't a new thing, just having it as a clan discipline.
                        I mean, what Tzimisce has Dominate!

                        You know...aside from DRACULA.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                          I mean, what Tzimisce has Dominate!

                          You know...aside from DRACULA.
                          a tzimisce on power and the inner voice or cathari is gonna want some dominate or presence


                          -

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                          • As much as I would like to throw in my Opinion on Elders in V5, I´ve seen this tango danced before, so lets not get back to the old back and forth here but maybe make a new Thread so we wont derail another Thead...

                            For the Companion:
                            I like the Salubri write-up the most, Obeah and Valeren seem to me like a "downtime activity" with an O-Shit-Button Potential.
                            I am a little confused why they would include Armor in Vicissitude and the Horrid Form, since it does basicly nothing for Vampires...

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                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              I mean, what Tzimisce has Dominate!

                              You know...aside from DRACULA.
                              Dracula could mesmerize, sure (Animalism 3?), but Van Helsing was the superior hypnotist and he was just some old dude.

                              Dracula also had the strength of 20 men, so Potence is arguably the better In Clan option over Dominate, by that logic.

                              I’m not even as much against them having Dominate as I’m angry they’ve lost their heightened senses, telepathy, far sight, prognostication, oracular abilities, psychic/spirit vision, etc, etc.

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                              • If we want to dig real deep into the discussions of Dracula, then the majority of Dracula's supernatural powers don't come from being a vampire. They come from him being a sorcerer taught by the Devil at Scholomance.
                                The Draculas were, says Arminius, a great and noble race, though now and again were scions who were held by their coevals to have had dealings with the Evil One. They learned his secrets in the Scholomance, amongst the mountains over Lake Hermanstadt, where the devil claims the tenth scholar as his due. In the records are such words as 'stregoica' witch, 'ordog' and 'pokol' Satan and hell, and in one manuscript this very Dracula is spoken of as 'wampyr,' which we all understand too well.

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