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Chicago by Night Lore Deep Dive

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  • #16
    Yeah, we do bring up Hank a lot. But there are other casualties worth noting- Johann Weltmann, Sharon and Michael Payne, Sir, and Brennon Thornhill, for example.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Lynceus View Post
      Yeah, we do bring up Hank a lot. But there are other casualties worth noting- Johann Weltmann, Sharon and Michael Payne, Sir, and Brennon Thornhill, for example.
      Also, the great Pham Hong! Guy who satirized how much racism he had to deal with in Lodin's brood. Also, the only Asian vampire in Chicago.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #18
        Until 5e, yes, lol. I'm not going to defend ALL of the lost Kindred. Personally I think the Nosferatu were the hardest hit overall. All hail Elzbieta Jurofsky, who beat the ever living Blood out of a 6th Generation Toreador, as a Mortal!

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        • #19
          Yeah some of the fatalities of UaBRM annoyed me a bit. While I do get the purges and even killing off some of the better characters to show how dangerous a full-on war between supernaturals can be, I also wish they hadn't killed off a couple of them. For me the big two were Hinds and Uriah. Hinds was the rebellious Childe of Lodin and there is plenty of potential in that for Chronicles, both during Lodin's reign and after it. Uriah is in a similar state but with Maldavis and being Dominated by Lodin. So their deaths felt like a loss of potential chronicle ideas.

          Also I do admit that I had fondness for Neon. I'm a sucker for sob and horror story of child vampires.


          Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post
            Yeah some of the fatalities of UaBRM annoyed me a bit. While I do get the purges and even killing off some of the better characters to show how dangerous a full-on war between supernaturals can be, I also wish they hadn't killed off a couple of them. For me the big two were Hinds and Uriah. Hinds was the rebellious Childe of Lodin and there is plenty of potential in that for Chronicles, both during Lodin's reign and after it. Uriah is in a similar state but with Maldavis and being Dominated by Lodin. So their deaths felt like a loss of potential chronicle ideas.

            Also I do admit that I had fondness for Neon. I'm a sucker for sob and horror story of child vampires.
            Uriah is such an incredibly scummy character, though, that his death really was something I'm glad they gave the PCs the option to facilitate.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              I think realism depends on how you interpret vampire lifestyles. One of the observations I made about 1st Edition was the fact that most vampires in Chicago actually had fairly high humanities and even the Humanity 0 people weren't actually serial killers (except for Son) let alone rampaging monsters who killed a person every night. The implication was that vampires were more like mafia dons in that they would kill people but it would be something that happened fairly rarely. Gradually, vampires started to become more and more violent to the point that its assumed even High Humanity vampires have a bunch of corpses in their basement.

              You're right that there's no making vampires "realistic" let alone all the other supernaturals of the World of Darkness but I think its worth noting that the original Kindred were like, "Oh no, I drained my victim to death! NOOOOOO!" vs. "You accidentally kill your vessel. Take one stain."
              Yep. When Critias kills a 12-year-old girl in his backstory, he reacts with horror and disgust and forswears civilization for centuries until Menele pulls him back. In V5, you have vampires ghouling their kids and killing people as casually as you'd take out the trash. It's even more bleak than Revised, because the authors start to play it for comedy. In Revised you got the sense everyone was a jaded asshole, but at least doing what they were doing as part of the larger sect war to avert Gehenna or meet it on better terms. In V5 you have vampire pet play couples giggling about killing their dom. You get the impression the authors think even trying to be a good person as a vampire is a total joke.

              It removes a lot of the game's pathos for me. It should be hard not to be a monster, but if it's impossible there's no reason to try.

              Hank Cave is notably almost ALWAYS the guy who gets brought up as the vampire that people were most upset about being killed off with the exception of Lodin himself.

              The thing about Chicago by Night 2nd Edition is that I think it's a solid book but I also think it really is inferior to its predecessor. Chicago by Night 1st Edition had its flaws, many-many flaws, but I also feel like UABRM also removed a lot of the character of the city. The new vampires who replaced the old ones were frequently a lot more generic, often a lot more stereotypical, and not really as diverse.
              I agree. The game developed a clearer identity during the years from '91 to '93 (you can debate whether 1e or 2e was a superior edition), and the clans in particular got a lot more fleshed out. A lot of the clanbooks had been released by then. Chicago was the game's flagship setting and I think the authors wanted to incorporate the new material and make the city's clans better "fit the mold." You can see, for instance, how they had the Gangrel become more loner-ish, the Brujah more combat-prone, etc. Many of the killed-off characters, like Johann or Horace, were less obvious fits into their clans and didn't immediately scream "Malkavian." It's funny, as Revised pushed the ideas "clans are not monolithic entities" and "vampires are individuals first and foremost" pretty hard. Some of the killed-off characters might have gotten a lease on life if Chicago's next book had been written for Revised instead of 2e.

              I think Chicago 2e is still a pretty decent book, and it introduced some new characters who were great additions to the city. I liked the new Malkavians more than the old ones. But I still liked Chicago 1e more overall.

              Although, really, Chicago 1e is an almost impossible standard to surpass. I think Constantinople is the only other city book that comes close.
              Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-20-2020, 03:19 PM.


              Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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              • #22
                Another odd thing I always liked about Chicago was how weird everyone's Discipline mixes were. Like Gengis with Auspex 4 (what was he embraced by a Laibon?) or all the Brujah with Dominate (enough that in my games, "Chicago Brujah" with Dominate instead of Presence is an allowed Bloodline). I always got the idea that "Clan Disciplines" was a later idea in VtM development, and characters were just given the powers the writers thought made sense for them. Not that this trend ever changed, lol. Citybooks always had characters with wackily high levels of non-Clan powers. Which made dealing with Storytellers over the years who claimed "Kindred would NEVER teach Discipline X" kind of amusing. Or people griping that Julian Luna has Protean. Hi, have you met Lodin?

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Lynceus View Post
                  Another odd thing I always liked about Chicago was how weird everyone's Discipline mixes were. Like Gengis with Auspex 4 (what was he embraced by a Laibon?) or all the Brujah with Dominate (enough that in my games, "Chicago Brujah" with Dominate instead of Presence is an allowed Bloodline). I always got the idea that "Clan Disciplines" was a later idea in VtM development, and characters were just given the powers the writers thought made sense for them. Not that this trend ever changed, lol. Citybooks always had characters with wackily high levels of non-Clan powers. Which made dealing with Storytellers over the years who claimed "Kindred would NEVER teach Discipline X" kind of amusing. Or people griping that Julian Luna has Protean. Hi, have you met Lodin?
                  Agreed.

                  I always thought "Clan Discipline" was meant to be, "This is slightly EASIER for the vampires to get. Not that you were ever supposed to be barred from them."


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Chicago's Discipline spread could be pretty overpowered, as was typical for the time. The wet-behind-the-ears Wendy Wade had something like, IIRC, 15 dots.

                    Some characters' spreads, conversely, were pretty restrained. Critias "only" had Auspex 6 and no other elder Discipline levels despite being 2,000 years undead. And he mainly used it to seem smarter than he was by predicting people's sentences.


                    Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                      Chicago's Discipline spread could be pretty overpowered, as was typical for the time. The wet-behind-the-ears Wendy Wade had something like, IIRC, 15 dots.

                      Some characters' spreads, conversely, were pretty restrained. Critias "only" had Auspex 6 and no other elder Discipline levels despite being 2,000 years undead. And he mainly used it to seem smarter than he was by predicting people's sentences.
                      I made a commentary that when Critias had Chicago ruled by Primogen, that just meant he was Prince.

                      Because he was a 1000 years older than the next eldest member of the group and it wasn't like they were weak either.



                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                        Chicago's Discipline spread could be pretty overpowered, as was typical for the time. The wet-behind-the-ears Wendy Wade had something like, IIRC, 15 dots.

                        Some characters' spreads, conversely, were pretty restrained. Critias "only" had Auspex 6 and no other elder Discipline levels despite being 2,000 years undead. And he mainly used it to seem smarter than he was by predicting people's sentences.

                        I mean, isn't that the best use of Auspex ever? With Critias, it just goes to show that age =/= personal power. All he really cared about was learning stuff, and a walking archive doesn't really NEED a lot of powers. It doesn't hurt that he's the only Noddist Scholar I can think of that doesn't have the stigma of his chosen academic specialization- anywhere else in the Camarilla, you get looked down upon for believing in that nonsense. His utter prestige simply for being a walking archive of Kindred Lore, 5th Generation, his Age, and having personally witnessed events that most Ancilla believe to be myths and legends gives him so much respect and influence that the only person crazy enough to think about going against him is that nutcase Tyler.

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                        • #27
                          Several of the characters killed off in Under a Blood Red Moon were killed off because they were characters from Upton Sinclair's The Jungle.

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle


                          Matthew Dawkins
                          In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                          Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                          Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                          • #28
                            Except, bizarrely, Tamoszius is alive again in 5e!

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lynceus View Post
                              Except, bizarrely, Tamoszius is alive again in 5e!

                              Yep, I brought him back because I liked him.


                              Matthew Dawkins
                              In-House Developer for Onyx Path Publishing


                              Website: https://www.matthewdawkins.com
                              Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/matthewdawkins

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by The Gentleman Gamer View Post
                                Yep, I brought him back because I liked him.
                                It's good to be Prince.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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