Anyone still play or remember much about the 2nd Edition?

[ElterAgo]

We started a 2nd Edition WoD campaign and a few of us have some questions on how to handle some stuff.
So we are looking for some folks with experience in that version. Got any?

[Matt the Bruins fan]

Most of my playing experience was with 2nd Ed., albeit decades ago. I'll help if I can.

[Legendre]

I have been playing homebrew rules for a long time now, but almost all of my experience in running games from '93-'00 was in Second Edition.

Please state the nature of the medical emergency.

[Haquim]

Can I help? Sure. I just need to pick up my katana and my trench coat first :P

[No One of Consequence]

Can I help? Sure. I just need to pick up my katana and my trench coat first :P

Don't forget your .50 cal Desert Eagle and Dragon's Breath rounds.

I haven't actually played with 2nd ed rules in a few decades, but I do still have most of the books for reference purposes.

[Trippy]

I’ve still got the corebook and, for me, it was a keynote to White Wolf’s success with Vampire and the whole WoD. It is the definitive edition of Vampire: The Masquerade in many ways, and probably the edition that introduced most players to the WoD in the 1990s. I played it at the time, although I moved on to Mage: the Ascension mostly in the 1990s, and then played it again (by preference) sometime in the mid-late 2000s.

Advantages:

- Purity of purpose. Only the original seven Clans are outlined still in the core and, while you could get supplements, you don’t need to. Nor do you need to buy into all the other games - Werewolf, etc - most of which hadn’t been written at the time of its original release. There is no ‘bloat’ in the book.
- Better writing and organization. The outline for playing the game is clearly expressed, while certain concepts are better explained than 1E too.
- Great art and layout. 2E moves on from 1E with more professional standards, generally, and you get a real feel for the ‘punk’ elements throughout the book. Good ‘splat’ art. Sturdy hardback.
- Fundamental concepts like diceless and live action play, are still discussed within (rather than being considered a separate game by the time MET comes out). The game concepts are still very fresh and original.

Disadvantages:

- Various systems are very loose and weak in implementation. The Combat system doesn’t really work - excessive numbers of dice are rolled, often for little effect. Botches are mathematically more likely to happen when you have a bigger dice-pool.
- The setting, without referencing any spiritual or expanded elements from other games is very bleak indeed.
- The conflict in the game, at core, is mainly focussed on the singular threat of older vampires and occasional hunters. There isn’t much diversity in the antagonists.

[ElterAgo]

Excellent, thanks for the offer of assistance. I will post my questions first, then collect some from the other folks.

Started with a Tremere clan. He is obssessed with finding the thaumaterigical reason the generations are getting weaker.

Will certainly eventually want to make some of the magical creatures in addition to several of the Rutor’s Hands. Gargoyles, Homunculi, Corpse Minions, and Demon Bound.
There is little rules other than I think I have to get to Thaumaturgy 4 and learn a specific ritual for a homunculus. Not sure if it just one ritual or if it is a separate ritual for each type of Homunculi? Says there are 4 main types, but it only mentions 3 types. No stats or rules given for any of them.

Gargoyles it seems can either be made from a captured vampire or recruited from the free clans in the European mountains. No stats or rules given except that they were able to fight off the attacks of other vampire clans. So definitely more powerful than Ghuls or human guards.

Corpse Minions are an improved version of the mage zombies. Don’t decay, most of its living reasoning, zero will power. No stats or rules given for them.

Demon Bound sound very powerful, but possibly fragile. No stats or rules given for them.

The corpse minions seem like a good way to get deep information from someone by killing, animating, and then questioning them at my leisure. So that is probably the one I would want to know how to do first.

Thaumaturgy Path. All they gives is names of some of the most common ones. Since my ‘goal’ is to find what is weakening the generations, which ever path you think would be most applicable to that. From just the names, I would think either the Spirit Thaumaturgy or Corruption sorta sound right.

I know it is up to the game master, but he seems unsure. None of it has come up before. Some suggestions would be appreciated.

[Legendre]

So as far as I know, at least some of what you're looking for didn't get fleshed out in Second Edition (although I suppose it's possible that one of the countless supplements with which I am *not* familiar contains the information). For example, Homunculus stats simply weren't in the 2d edition Tremere Handbook. They didn't get laid out (again, as far as I know) until Revised, where you can find (in Clanbook Tremere) that they have two health levels and two dots in each Physical attribute. They cannot fight effectively, but can push or carry objects. They have to be fed a point of blood each week.

Gargoyles, on the other hand, were given a treatment in the Storyteller's Handbook (1992), on pages 91-92 of "The Enemy" chapter (which lists out a bunch of potential antagonists), including a write-up of their signature discipline. I shant spoil your Storyteller's fun by giving you specifics. I also seem to recall that Second Edition Dark Ages had a lot of material as well.

I don't recall much about Demon Bound or Corpse Minions from a stat point of view in Second Edition, either -- although maybe others do. They weren't really something I paid much attention to, so if they were given more in depth treatments later I wouldn't know.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

In terms of the Thaumaturgy paths, I'd say the one that started it all, The Path of Blood, would be the one you'd want to specialize in for occult research about the weakening of the generations. Its powers include both drawing information from a specific sample of blood and artificially strengthening one's own vitae temporarily. Those seem more relevant to the goal than anything the other paths do.

[CTPhipps]

Can I help? Sure. I just need to pick up my katana and my trench coat first :P

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[ElterAgo]

So as far as I know, at least some of what you're looking for didn't get fleshed out in Second Edition (although I suppose it's possible that one of the countless supplements with which I am *not* familiar contains the information). For example, Homunculus stats simply weren't in the 2d edition Tremere Handbook. They didn't get laid out (again, as far as I know) until Revised, where you can find (in Clanbook Tremere) that they have two health levels and two dots in each Physical attribute. They cannot fight effectively, but can push or carry objects. They have to be fed a point of blood each week.

Gargoyles, on the other hand, were given a treatment in the Storyteller's Handbook (1992), on pages 91-92 of "The Enemy" chapter (which lists out a bunch of potential antagonists), including a write-up of their signature discipline. I shant spoil your Storyteller's fun by giving you specifics. I also seem to recall that Second Edition Dark Ages had a lot of material as well.

I don't recall much about Demon Bound or Corpse Minions from a stat point of view in Second Edition, either -- although maybe others do. They weren't really something I paid much attention to, so if they were given more in depth treatments later I wouldn't know.

Are there any details in there on how to make the homunculi and gargoyles? If there are, don't give me the details, just let me know they are there so he can look them up if he wants.

[ElterAgo]

In terms of the Thaumaturgy paths, I'd say the one that started it all, The Path of Blood, would be the one you'd want to specialize in for occult research about the weakening of the generations. Its powers include both drawing information from a specific sample of blood and artificially strengthening one's own vitae temporarily. Those seem more relevant to the goal than anything the other paths do.

Sounds good to me. Is there someplace with details on what the Path of Blood entails, provides, requires?

[Matt the Bruins fan]

It's the base Thaumaturgy discipline in 2nd Edition. Write-up begins on p. 168 of the core rulebook.

[Legendre]

Are there any details in there on how to make the homunculi and gargoyles? If there are, don't give me the details, just let me know they are there so he can look them up if he wants.

Homunculi are created through a 4th level Thaumaturgical ritual (which you already knew) which is detailed in the Revised edition Tremere Clanbook. I am unaware of any specific detailing of the ritual from Second Edition.

I don't know of any detailed information about creating gargoyles at all -- but that doesn't mean it isn't out there.