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Virtues and Willpower/Humanity

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  • angryicecream
    started a topic Virtues and Willpower/Humanity

    Virtues and Willpower/Humanity

    I had a debate with someone the other day about whether freebie purchases of virtues correspond to increasing willpower/road rating at character creation... He's never heard of it applying and was kind of baffled when I said it did. But, uh... I've never heard of it *not* applying. Just kind of curious what the general take of the community was.
    Last edited by angryicecream; 01-03-2021, 03:03 AM. Reason: Clarification

  • MalleusXXIII
    replied
    Originally posted by Richard View Post
    In V20, Humanity/path cost 2 freebie points.
    That's bizarre - I'd never noticed that change before. It's also 2 freebies per dot of Road in DAV20.

    Leave a comment:


  • adambeyoncelowe
    replied
    Originally posted by angryicecream View Post
    Well, your WP is max 5 no matter how many dots you put into courage. So, of course you should raise it higher. At least to 6-7 just so the nearest Ventrue doesn't ruin your night on a lark(Hyperbole, of course). I was going to go digging through the actual sample char creation process but the one example I found was from Revised and it's... wrong. Thanks, white wolf. The sample char buys up her humanity but she pays 2 freebies to directly raise her humanity by 1. Now, maybe the writer meant raised the virtue for 2 freebies thereby raising the humanity score... But, that's not what it said. It said she paid 2 to raise humanity by 1... Humanity only costs 1 to raise. So, I'm not even sure the authors knew what they wanted

    I checked Revised, VDA 2e, VDA rev and V20/DAV20. If you have the other books and want to check for char creation that'd be cool.
    That's just a mistake. Revised makes it explicit. You don't get to increase Humanity and Willpower by increasing the Virtues they're based on. I always saw the cost of Virtues as reflecting the fact they're on a 1-5 scale, whereas Humanity and Willpower are on a 1-10 scale so cost half as much.

    If increasing Virtues also increased Humanity and Willpower, they should cost more per dot, IMO.

    Leave a comment:


  • Richard
    replied
    In V20, Humanity/path cost 2 freebie points.

    Leave a comment:


  • angryicecream
    replied
    Well, your WP is max 5 no matter how many dots you put into courage. So, of course you should raise it higher. At least to 6-7 just so the nearest Ventrue doesn't ruin your night on a lark(Hyperbole, of course). I was going to go digging through the actual sample char creation process but the one example I found was from Revised and it's... wrong. Thanks, white wolf. The sample char buys up her humanity but she pays 2 freebies to directly raise her humanity by 1. Now, maybe the writer meant raised the virtue for 2 freebies thereby raising the humanity score... But, that's not what it said. It said she paid 2 to raise humanity by 1... Humanity only costs 1 to raise. So, I'm not even sure the authors knew what they wanted

    I checked Revised, VDA 2e, VDA rev and V20/DAV20. If you have the other books and want to check for char creation that'd be cool.
    Last edited by angryicecream; 01-08-2021, 02:14 AM.

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  • MalleusXXIII
    replied
    I think at no point in any edition (and I've checked VDA, DAV, VAV20, VTMRev and V20) does anything say that buying virtues with freebies increase Humanity/Willpower - although I'll add that VDA also says your starting Road rating can be between 2-10. This must be false, however, because you can put at most 4 of your 7 virtue dots into Courage - so a minium of 3 must go in the two virtues that sum to Road rating - i.e., Road rating starts at between 5-9 from virtue dots. Later editions just say that Humanity etc goes from 1-10 as their scale (e.g. in DAV). So I'm inclined to believe that was an error that got carried over between early editions (I think VDA is quite similar to VTM2nd mechanically, and then VTMRev came shortly after VDA), and then was removed in later editions (DAV, V20, DAV20)

    VDA (in a similar vein to VTMRev says "Step Five: Finishing Touches. In this step you gain 15 freebie points... Before you spend these points, however, you must record the base scores for your character's Willpower, Via rating..." And then says under Willpower, "You should probably raise it higher by using freebies points."

    I still feel there would be a reminder is buying virtues with freebies points required you to recalculate Humanity/Willpower. especially after the explicit instruction to calculate those values before spending freebies.

    Leave a comment:


  • angryicecream
    replied
    So, did some digging. You get 7 (Plus the 1 free in each) virtue dots, right? Even in Revised it says "...Conscience + Self Control Traits, yielding a score between 5 and 10." even if you put all of your starting 7 freebies into self control and conscience you could still only get to 9 humanity. So, either it gets raised with freebie purchased virtues or that point there is a mistake on the part of the authors.

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  • angryicecream
    replied
    For example, V20 states "At this stage, the player may spend 15 freebie points to personalize his character. First, however, a bit of bookkeeping needs to be done. Humanity. A character’s starting Humanity rating equals the sum of her Conscience + Self-Control Traits, yielding a score between 5 and 9. Players can also increase their Humanity with freebie points, as too low a rating indicates that the Beast lies in close proximity."
    They could easily be saying that so you don't buy humanity/willpower twice with freebies.

    In VTM Revised, it explicitly states that "First and foremost, she must figure Veronica's Humanity and Willpower scores (this is done before any freebie points are added to Virtues)".
    This, however, is more compelling. I had never read that before. I'll have to dig up the full context later (on my way out the door atm) but if it's in keeping with the rest that seems to solve it

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  • MalleusXXIII
    replied
    I, and those I play with, have always assumed that freebies spent on Virtues do not affect Humanity/Path/Road and Willpower.

    The rules from multiple editions of VTM and DAV are pretty clear that Humanity/Path/Road and Willpower are set at the value of Conscience/Conviction + Self-Control/Instinct and Courage respectively before any freebies are spent. In most of those editions that seems implicit that freebies spent on Virtues do not change the values of Humanity/Path/Road and Willpower.

    For example, V20 states "At this stage, the player may spend 15 freebie points to personalize his character. First, however, a bit of bookkeeping needs to be done. Humanity. A character’s starting Humanity rating equals the sum of her Conscience + Self-Control Traits, yielding a score between 5 and 9. Players can also increase their Humanity with freebie points, as too low a rating indicates that the Beast lies in close proximity."

    In VTM Revised, it explicitly states that "First and foremost, she must figure Veronica's Humanity and Willpower scores (this is done before any freebie points are added to Virtues)".

    If the intention was to recalculate Humanity/Path/Road and Willpower after freebies were spent on Virtues, but before freebies were spent on Humanity/Path/Road, then I think it would be spelled out explicitly, given the other caveats.

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  • angryicecream
    replied
    That's my take as well. Anyone have a dissenting opinion?

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  • Chris24601
    replied
    It’s right in the rules; virtue dots bought at creation add to willpower or humanity (its one of the reasons why they cost more).

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