[V20] Tremere, the friend no one likes

[lbeaumanior]

I was reading the Tremere (both clan and founder) history, and it seems to me that nearly everyone wants them gone:

• Assamite clan, for placing a curse upon them.
• Gangrel clan, for the Gargoyle creation using Gangrel bodies.
• Gargoyle clan, for being enslaved.
• Nosferatu clan, for the Gargoyle creation using Nosferatu bodies.
• Telyavelic Tremere bloodline, for fear of destruction.
• Tremere antitribu bloodline, for branding them.
• Tzimisce clan, for the Gargoyle creation using Tzimisce bodies and for becoming a clan using Tzimisce blood.
• Sabbat, a personal hatred of the Antediluvians (this one only would affect the Founder himself) and being Camarilla aligned.

The Tremere weakness should be the Flaw: Clan Enmity (All of those guys).

This also speaks volumes about the power of Thaumaturgy, with so many people wanting them gone, they still prosper.

For a hypothetical return of Tremere the person, or the other founders, does it make sense for them to have the flaw, with all those groups? Or which ones do not merit a Clan Enmity?

[Chris24601]

Well, the thing about Clan emnity is that clans are made up of vampires; many of whom are not old enough to have even been involved with the events that you’re citing. Why would a Gangel sired in the 1980s give two flips about a Gangrel who got turned into a gargoyle by some Tremere he’s never met nearly a millennium ago?

Meanwhile there’s the Tremere he personally knows who hooked his RV up with a ritual keeps all sunlight out, even if some moron busts open the door during the day. Why would he hate that guy?

As to Tremere’s return, per the lore he’s probably hanging out in Goriatrix’s 4th Gen body (its believed he used the ritual sacrifice of most of the antitribue to artificially bump himself back to 3rd, but who knows if that was really the case or, if it was, how long it will last or if it’s even still in effect.

Personally, I love the idea of Tremere being stuck as a 4th Gen (i.e. actually statable in game) and without access to the mainline Tremere, but having to work through the few Sabbat Tremere he missed wiping out (because irony is fun) and/or House Carna if you’re using them in your game... meanwhile Saulot and/or Tsmicse are using his original body to control the Tremere proper.

[False Epiphany]

Without reading the text or knowing the edition, I'd say Clan Enmity is supposed to be an individual Flaw. It is what the PC personally has done to piss off a given clan. Otherwise the Flaw winds up being overly broad because there are a million and one clans and factions with reasons to hate each other.


That said, the Gangrel and the Nosferatu don't want the Tremere gone. They agreed to stop making Gargoyles when the Camarilla formed. It's likely a few continued to secretly get made, but it ended as a large-scale practice. At that point it was either benefit from a Tremere alliance or don't, and the Gangrel/Nossies are thoroughly pragmatic clans. Add 600 years on top and you have a recipe for them being largely over it.

The Telyavelics are a really tiny bloodline that's barely around anymore.

The Gargoyles are also pretty small by the modern nights. They're no longer getting converted from other clans in mass numbers.

It is very true the Tremere have lots of enemies. And it does say a lot about them that they've managed to not only survive but prosper in spite of sustained efforts by numerous vastly older clans to wipe them out.

[False Epiphany]

As to Tremere’s return, per the lore he’s probably hanging out in Goriatrix’s 4th Gen body (its believed he used the ritual sacrifice of most of the antitribue to artificially bump himself back to 3rd, but who knows if that was really the case or, if it was, how long it will last or if it’s even still in effect.

Personally, I love the idea of Tremere being stuck as a 4th Gen (i.e. actually statable in game) and without access to the mainline Tremere, but having to work through the few Sabbat Tremere he missed wiping out (because irony is fun) and/or House Carna if you’re using them in your game... meanwhile Saulot and/or Tsmicse are using his original body to control the Tremere proper.

I also prefer this idea. He ultimately failed to diablerize Saulot. Like, tough shit, dude. You're back to 4th.

I don't think being in Goratrix's physical body is even that big an impediment, beyond the loss of generation. There are lots of ways for a "mere" 4th gen vampire to make themselves look different, and barely anyone is around who actually recognizes Tremere's physical body by sight.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The Ventrue don't like em either. too successful. They have overlapping interests. By V20 at least, the Ventrue are covertly trying to limit Tremere.
But that's the thing; The Tremere are really successful, too successful, and everyone's jealous as a result. Thaumaturgy basically makes them a tech company; they pay a lot for R&D, but when they finally have the product they can sell for a huge markup and at very little cost to themselves and continue selling forever... It's the best source of prestation, and they're way better at it than their competitors. But as everyone still wants their products, it's best not to get too critical.

[Thoth]

The Tremere are more victims of bad writing, poor world building, and mechanics bloat.

If you look at pretty much any other clan, far more plot stuff has happened to the Tremere. WW can't help but use the Tremere in any new plot or concept. The Tremere were supposed to be the magic kindred, now lots of clans have magic. The Tremere were supposed to be a small but very unified clan, now that clan structure is so riddled with holes and cracks that it is a joke and that isn't even going into V5 BS.

While the OP listed all the clans that are angry with the Tremere, another way to look at it is look at all the clans the Tremere were used to either introduce or create backstory for. If you go back to before the expansion clans and bloodlines, the Tremere were just another clan with a non-traditional origin story. Do the writers want to introduce the Assamites, well the Tremere are the reason they can't eat everyone else. The writers wanted to introduce the Salubri, well the Tremere are the reason they are so rare. The writers want to introduce Gargoyles, well lets just have the Tremere honk off not just one clan but three. The Tremere are hated by the Sabbat for having a 3rd Generation founder who is sleeping, but the Giovanni who have an awake and active 3rd Generation founder is largely ignored.

Several other clans are just as viable for being responsible for plot development in the V:tM setting, but the Tremere just always seem to be picked for plot duty. The Ventrue and Brujah clans haven't done anything setting changing since Carthage. The Toreador haven't done anything really. The Gangrel went independent and broke from the Camarilla. The Tzimisce and Lasombra formed the Sabbat. The Nosferatu and Nicktuku were a thing, but other than that the Nosferatu just creep around. The biggest thing the Malkavians have done setting wise is change disciplines from Dominate to Dementation.

So the plot point bloat is considerable with the Tremere. Then there is the fact that WW always has one area in every game line that suffers horrible mechanics bloat. In V:tM it was Thamaturgy paths, in Exalted it was Martial Arts styles, in Werewolf it was gifts, etc. Sure that more or less is just a massive XP sink for players with completionist tendencies, but more so it is very easy for other players to get jealous over all the new toys the Tremere clan gets access to, not to mention the difficulty in balancing thing for the developers.

[MyWifeIsScary]

^A lot of stuff happens to or because of the Tremere because the Tremere are the only clan in the camarilla that could be considered a proper organization (the ventrue are more of an alliance than an organization.) You could never have "the Brujah decided to do x" or "the Toreador accepted Y" on a wide, non-generalizing scale because neither are unified to the point of collective responsibility. It's not 'the brujah did x' it's 'and Andy the Brujah did X' or "Andy's gang of Brujah did X" or if you want to stretch you can have "the Brujah of shanghai did X", but you could never have "The Brujah decided to leave the Camarilla" because there's no formal hierarchy and nobody in the clan can dictate such things and the clan would never.... uh, I should switch to the Toreador for examples yeah? The point is, everybody in the Toreador has agency. They might socially suffer if they go against the Toreador curb, but they're free to make that choice. The Tremere don't have such agency. If they do something, it's the will of the pyramid. The entire clan is dominated by one organization, and the clan comes first. The only other group to do that's the Giovanni. Do note; these are the 'new' clans, the up and coming clans, the clans that have short history and the ones that have reasons to rock the boat. They're modern organizations, whilst the other clans are are just... They're influential socially, but they're not defining. Just consider the natural perspective: When Billy the Brujah does something it's just Billy doing it, and whenever Timmy the Tremere does something it's the Tremere doing it.

It's entirely for in-universe reasons that the Tremere are doing 'the stuff'. It's not poor writing, at least for 20th.

[Thoth]

^A lot of stuff happens to or because of the Tremere because the Tremere are the only clan in the camarilla that could be considered a proper organization (the ventrue are more of an alliance than an organization.) You could never have "the Brujah decided to do x" or "the Toreador accepted Y" on a wide, non-generalizing scale because neither are unified to the point of collective responsibility. It's not 'the brujah did x' it's 'and Andy the Brujah did X' or "Andy's gang of Brujah did X" or if you want to stretch you can have "the Brujah of shanghai did X", but you could never have "The Brujah decided to leave the Camarilla" because there's no formal hierarchy and nobody in the clan can dictate such things and the clan would never.... uh, I should switch to the Toreador for examples yeah? The point is, everybody in the Toreador has agency. They might socially suffer if they go against the Toreador curb, but they're free to make that choice. The Tremere don't have such agency. If they do something, it's the will of the pyramid. The entire clan is dominated by one organization, and the clan comes first. The only other group to do that's the Giovanni. Do note; these are the 'new' clans, the up and coming clans, the clans that have short history and the ones that have reasons to rock the boat. They're modern organizations, whilst the other clans are are just... They're influential socially, but they're not defining. Just consider the natural perspective: When Billy the Brujah does something it's just Billy doing it, and whenever Timmy the Tremere does something it's the Tremere doing it.

It's entirely for in-universe reasons that the Tremere are doing 'the stuff'. It's not poor writing, at least for 20th.

And yet most of what you listed actually is evidence to the contrary.

The Tremere are supposed to be a small clan, specifically because the only embrace people with magical connections or talents. Such a small and tightly knit clan is there for capable of being used in a unified manner. On top of having such a specific identity for their members the clan has partial blood bonding to the council to ensure allegiance and a clan disicipline is dominate. But if they are that unified then you would not see the number of internal factions within the clan nor would they have antitribu or internal dissagreement over which paths of magic are valid. So the very storyline regarding the clan design is bad writing since they are apparently a monolithic unified clan and a jumbled group of vampire mages with each coven doing its own thing.

As you stated the Giovanni are bound by both familial ties and clan ties, with a shared interest in Necromancy and power. Yet they are portrayed as on par or more unified than the Tremere. The Giovanni have never had Antitribu, they have an active founder, and the fluff surrounding character creation is arguably more diverse than the Tremere. Alternatively the Followers of Set are portrayed as likewise unified, as are the Assamites. So no the Tremere are not the only clan who can be used as an organization for plot advancement reasons.

I would also point out that the Tremere are the newest Clan in existence. All the other "new clans" were retroactively written to be ancient and even most of the Bloodlines that are newer like the Daughters of Cacophony, Kiasyd, etc. which are younger than the Tremere have no where near the traction of a clan.

So in the end, yes it is absolutely poor writing and game design because it lacks consistency and planning. Don't get me wrong, I have a special place in my heart for the Tremere, but I can be honest about how badly they have been handled over the last 30 years of game development.

[MyWifeIsScary]

And yet most of what you listed actually is evidence to the contrary.

Whut?

The Tremere are supposed to be a small clan, specifically because the only embrace people with magical connections or talents.

Wrong and wrong. The Tremere don't just embrace people with magical connections or tallents. That's rediculous. mortal mages aren't so common, and virtually anyone can learn thaumaturgy post embrace. You really shouldn't talk about the Tremere so authoritatively when you have such a fundamental misunderstanding of them. With that out of the way, for size, the Tremere actively wants to have seven vampire apprentices and at least a regent in each chantry.. which, as far as vampires go in their suposed 1:100,000 ratio, is so huge that it's rarely achieved.

Such a small and tightly knit clan is there for capable of being used in a unified manner. On top of having such a specific identity for their members the clan has partial blood bonding to the council to ensure allegiance and a clan disicipline is dominate

I can't imagine Tremere really use Dominate so much on eachother. On their many mortal servants and gargoyles? Sure, that's probably what it's there for.

But if they are that unified then you would not see the number of internal factions within the clan nor would they have antitribu or internal dissagreement over which paths of magic are valid. So the very storyline regarding the clan design is bad writing since they are apparently a monolithic unified clan and a jumbled group of vampire mages with each coven doing its own thing.

There are how many christian denominations , but if someone didn't write 'baptist' on their church's sign, how would you distinguish it from an anglican church? It's not even that serious. Tremere secret societies are like... what after-school activities you do; football, the other football, karate, chess? Only you're summoning demons or raising the dead; they're not dangerous political movements except in the rare instances that they are. Making mountains out of molehills.

As you stated the Giovanni are bound by both familial ties and clan ties, with a shared interest in Necromancy and power. Yet they are portrayed as on par or more unified than the Tremere.[/quote] nah, the Giovanni have always been depicted as a mess that'll explode sometime.

The Giovanni have never had Antitribu, they have an active founder, and the fluff surrounding character creation is arguably more diverse than the Tremere. Alternatively the Followers of Set are portrayed as likewise unified, as are the Assamites. So no the Tremere are not the only clan who can be used as an organization for plot advancement reasons.

-The Assamites did advance the plot considerably. So scratch them out of your argument.
-The Settites have a mostly-decentralized religion. They're far closer to the Ventrue in organization scope than the Tremere.

I would also point out that the Tremere are the newest Clan in existence. All the other "new clans" were retroactively written to be ancient and even most of the Bloodlines that are newer like the Daughters of Cacophony, Kiasyd, etc. which are younger than the Tremere have no where near the traction of a clan.

bro those bloodlines are tiny. How could they possibly have anywhere near the traction of the Tremere?

So in the end, yes it is absolutely poor writing and game design because it lacks consistency and planning. Don't get me wrong, I have a special place in my heart for the Tremere, but I can be honest about how badly they have been handled over the last 30 years of game development.

Game is not the one at fault here.

[Pleiades]

• Sabbat, a personal hatred of the Antediluvians (this one only would affect the Founder himself) and being Camarilla aligned.

also because the Tremere are the only reason the sabbat have so much trouble against the Cam,
and because several factions withing the sabbat despise thaumaturgy (but end up resorting to it anyway),
and because Tremere are not Cainites (that's important for the...cainites)

[Thoth]

MyWifeIsScary I am not speaking with authority, I am just speaking from experience and the fact unlike you apparently, I have read more than one edition of the books. Don't get me wrong I am not one of those elitists who require everyone to read everything to be allowed to even contribute to a conversation, but I do expect people to at least be aware that there might be official stuff that differs from their own head canon.

For example the Tremere don't embrace true magic users, but instead embrace people who are hedge wizards (completely different systems) or otherwise show an affinity for the Occult and this mortal life connection to the occult is in pretty much every write up in the clan section about who they tend to embrace, so how you are missing that is any ones guess.

As for dominating their ghouls, the book on ghouls says that the Tremere tend to avoid creating ghouls, its almost like a group of blood mages might understand that leaving ghouls with your blood in their system might just be one hell of a weakness on a thaumaturgical level. Every clan that has dominate tends to use it on each other to reinforce loyalty.

I brought up the other bloodlines because they like the tremere they started small and grew over time. The fact that the pyramid was built so quickly (by vampire standards) shows how much control the leaders have over who gets embraced, who gets promoted, and who is killed off for the good of the clan. The Tremere started out as what 8 primary mages and less than a couple dozen apprentices and now while they might number as high as a couple thousand, they are still considered a smaller clan.

The only thing the assamites did was break the Tremere curse, which can be attributed to the Tremere as well as the assamites. But in truth other than participating in the Baali Wars and then getting cursed by the Tremere, exactly what have the Assamites done in the last few centuries other than freeing themselves of the curse? If they started taking contracts from Neonates to kill annoying Princes or Bishops, then that would be something, but in truth they affect the setting no where near as much as the Tremere are constantly written as doing.

I'm sorry if this factual information upsets you regarding the storyline surrounding the Tremere, but it is what it is, and mostly what it is turns out to be bad writing. I don't blame the game, I just call out unrefined notions that were hurried out to sell books to a content hungry audience, rather than spending years play testing and considering ramification before publishing.

[MyWifeIsScary]

MyWifeIsScary am just speaking from experience and the fact unlike you apparently, I have read more than one edition of the books. Don't get me wrong I am not one of those elitists who require everyone to read everything to be allowed to even contribute to a conversation, but I do expect people to at least be aware that there might be official stuff that differs from their own head canon.

You're very confident for someone so wrong

For example the Tremere don't embrace true magic users, but instead embrace people who are hedge wizards (completely different systems) or otherwise show an affinity for the Occult and this mortal life connection to the occult is in pretty much every write up in the clan section about who they tend to embrace, so how you are missing that is any ones guess.

Yes, I know about hedge wizards.
Yeah, they tend to embrace people with a connection to the occult. That's definetly in the books.
But where you've dropped the ball is some ludicrus idea that they exclusively embrace folks with their head in the occult. That has never been a thing, and you should really find a source to prove me wrong, oh great and powerful multi-edition reader. The Tremere embrace scientists and accountants and lawyers just as readily. The Tremere have absolutely no need to recruit exclusively from mortal occultists, petty or great; so why would they? Have you honestly been playing for so long under such a mistaken belief, you've been living a lie!

As for dominating their ghouls, the book on ghouls says that the Tremere tend to avoid creating ghouls, its almost like a group of blood mages might understand that leaving ghouls with your blood in their system might just be one hell of a weakness on a thaumaturgical level. Every clan that has dominate tends to use it on each other to reinforce loyalty.

Which book on ghouls?
-Blood in someone else's system is not a weakness on a thaumaturgical level. That's pretty well established, once it's in someone else's system, it's not yours anymore. The blood bond itself might be exploited somehow, but i've yet to read a ritual that can do anything signfificant there.
-Pretending you're right for a moment; Imagine they're really not using ghouls for a moment; what about Dominated servants? Dominate 4; conditioning. Perhaps they use Dominate because they need blood delivered to them so they can spend more time on rituals, perhaps they use Dominate because their skills are flashy and they need to memory wipe. 'every clan that uses dominate tends to use it on each other to reinforce loyalty"; absolutely laughable. It's the complete opposite effect. Disciplines are not just about using/not using them, they're about your way of life (ok, there's nothing to establish that as concrete fact, but it's pretty easy to read between the lines). Just because they have Dominate, doesn't mean they're using it extensively on other kindred, because that's as rude as rape and creates resentment.

I brought up the other bloodlines because they like the tremere they started small and grew over time. The fact that the pyramid was built so quickly (by vampire standards) shows how much control the leaders have over who gets embraced, who gets promoted, and who is killed off for the good of the clan. The Tremere started out as what 8 primary mages and less than a couple dozen apprentices and now while they might number as high as a couple thousand, they are still considered a smaller clan.

You know the Pyramid is a leadership structure right? Nah seriously bro what.... You were saying I have read less books than you? Were all your books fanfiction? The Tremere are huge, or at least they want to be huge. There's Tremere, and under him there's the council of seven and each of them has seven pointifexes who have seven lords each who have seven regents who have seven apprentices (who might have 7 acolytes)
Sure, that's a pipe dream that the Tremere have; There's no way they can get seven apprentices in each chantry beccause few cities have the population and few political bodies would accept it, but that does give us the high ceiling of 19608 vampires and 117649 servants ) , and if we imagine all the apprentices are dead we have the joke estimate of 2800 (Other reasons for low numbers might include less pointifexes, less lords or less regents, which... yeah, sure, is likely to some extent, but the point being is that this is not a clan that wants to be small.).

also it's fucking easy for vampires to increase their numbers or their servants in a pinch, which they were on creation given the omen war.

The only thing the assamites did was break the Tremere curse, which can be attributed to the Tremere as well as the assamites. But in truth other than participating in the Baali Wars and then getting cursed by the Tremere, exactly what have the Assamites done in the last few centuries other than freeing themselves of the curse?

-They fought the Nascent Camarilla, all of it.
-They had a schism and half joined the camarilla
-They have one of the scariest methuselahs leading the other half.

I'm sorry if this factual information upsets you regarding the storyline surrounding the Tremere, .

To call your information factual you should provide at least a single fact.

[False Epiphany]

For example the Tremere don't embrace true magic users, but instead embrace people who are hedge wizards (completely different systems) or otherwise show an affinity for the Occult and this mortal life connection to the occult is in pretty much every write up in the clan section about who they tend to embrace, so how you are missing that is any ones guess.

Abraham DuSable was a lawyer.

Victor was a CIA agent.

Helena Tayor was an Awakened mage.

Martin Franckel was an engineering student.

Wan Zhu was a museum curator.

Masika St. John was a computer science professor.

Garwood Marshall was a jazz musician.

Marie D'Richet was either an Awakened mage or being groomed to Awaken by her mage father.

Hyapatia was an archaeology student.

Valois Sang was a psychiatrist.

Carna was a peasant girl.

The Revised clanbook sample PCs had a coyote, a medical examiner, a nightclub owner, a corporate middle manager, a directionless smart kid, a union leader, an aspiring politician, and a security consultant.

The Tremere embrace scientists and accountants and lawyers just as readily. The Tremere have absolutely no need to recruit exclusively from mortal occultists, petty or great; so why would they?

I agree. It's useful if childer already have a background in the occult, but that knowledge can always be taught. Smart and driven people who function well in a hierarchy are the ideal Tremere Embraces, and those qualities are harder to teach.

Two of the Tremere PCs from my current game were a lawyer and medical doctor in their mortal lives. "Tremere childer can only be occultists" would feel very conceptually limiting.

The writers obviously agreed, and have for a while. The first lawyer Tremere showed up in a 1991 sourcebook.

[Black Fox]

One of the first supplements, Succubus Club, had Harry Houdini - escape artist, illusionist, and occult debunker - as a Tremere. There were a lot of unique elements to his backstory that makes him not a standard Tremere, but he's another prominent early example of someone from a non-occult background. (Though he did study it enough to understand what he was debunking).

Obviously people with occult backgrounds make good candidates for embrace, and I suspect they make up a prominent portion of the clan - and once embraced almost everyone begins learning Thaumaturgy to some degree - but there are lots of other concepts in Tremere NPCs.

I had a buddy who once played a Tremere who was basically the chantry's "face man". He handled most of the "mundane" aspects of the chantry's activities and concentrated on Dominate instead of Thaumaturgy, and on Influence and Resources rather than the occult. He did have a slight occult background in the sense he was recruited through a fraternal society that had Masonic-style rituals, but his character's reason for being in that (and why he was embraced) was because of his networking, business, and leadership skills. He was someone who could present an acceptable public persona to the clan while everyone else experimented with magic and other supernatural. I thought it was a keen character.

[Pleiades]

-Blood in someone else's system is not a weakness on a thaumaturgical level. That's pretty well established, once it's in someone else's system, it's not yours anymore. The blood bond itself might be exploited somehow, but i've yet to read a ritual that can do anything signfificant there.

are you sure it's well established?
there's a lvl 1 ritual that allows you to get the true name of a direct sire of a given vampire,
I don't know if blood from a ghoul can be used to track true names, but it's certainly not a risk people would be comfortable taking (anything that is linked to you is a risk where magi and witches are concerned)

(note that I'm not saying they don't use ghouls, since I'm at least certain they use familiars which are usually blood bound)

You know the Pyramid is a leadership structure right? Nah seriously bro what.... You were saying I have read less books than you? Were all your books fanfiction? The Tremere are huge, or at least they want to be huge. There's Tremere, and under him there's the council of seven and each of them has seven pointifexes who have seven lords each who have seven regents who have seven apprentices (who might have 7 acolytes)
Sure, that's a pipe dream that the Tremere have; There's no way they can get seven apprentices in each chantry beccause few cities have the population and few political bodies would accept it, but that does give us the high ceiling of 19608 vampires and 117649 servants ) , and if we imagine all the apprentices are dead we have the joke estimate of 2800 (Other reasons for low numbers might include less pointifexes, less lords or less regents, which... yeah, sure, is likely to some extent, but the point being is that this is not a clan that wants to be small.).

Tremere have more titles than members to carry them,
I'm not sure, but I think Revised was to blame for introducing the ridiculous title bloat to serve the LARP scene (and the Tremere were not the only victim)

I gotta agree with Thoth on this point, the Tremere are supposed to be (or imo "should be") a relatively smaller clan