Vampire Revised (v3) Thaumaturgy

[anarchorawlsian]

I've recently been invited to a Vampire Revised game wherein we are only using the core book and V20's Lore of the Clans and was wondering in what ways could I optimize thaumaturgy? The plan for the character is an archivist with Movement of the Mind that was a former Hermetic turned kindred and thus has drawn the ire of the local Order of Hermes. I understand this is fairly broad, so here are the things I'm interested in:

1) What defense would a vampire, specifically a Tremere, have with regards to awakened magics? I understand supernaturals enjoy ''natural countermagick'' and that Vampires cannot be singularly affected by Life or Matter, but are there any other avenues for making oneself an ''anti Mage'' especially when the main hunters of him will be Force slinging Hermetics?

2) What manner of difficulty reduction/mechanical benefits are available in the core book or Lore of the Clans that are specific to Thaumaturgy? Is there some sort of ability that I can take a specialization in for better rolls or mechanical benefits?

3) What exactly are the limits of Movement of the Mind besides the weight chart? For example, could you tear a pipe out of socket to dowse a fire, crush a chair with force, etc. If so, what would the roll be? I enjoy the flavor of MotM but am worried that it is not exactly a good way to defend oneself besides being able to fly away like Superman when the Order of Hermes starts waggling wands and drawing chalk runes. (I understand a lot of people are very anti-combat optimization because ''it detracts from the point of WoD'' but I promise I'm not just trying to go full munchkin, trivialize-every-challenge mode. Just looking to maintain a character that could reasonably defend themselves against Hermetics since it is a large part of the character.)

I appreciate any help!

[Pleiades]

hmm, why did you mention v3 in the title if you're using v20?

I understand supernaturals enjoy ''natural countermagick''

the natural countermagick does not work on force slinging hermetics,
it only works againt magicks that target the vampire's pattern (such as curses)

it's also not really natural since it requires occult knowledge

1) What defense would a vampire, specifically a Tremere, have with regards to awakened magics?

as far as v20 is concerned, wards vs mages and demon summoning,
if your ST is generous, they can allow you to summon paradox spirits or powerful enough spirits to protect your heaven from mages (or at least enough to slow them down)

[Alphari]

1) They (vamps) can make it difficult to approach them.

• Paths:
• Oneiromancy
• The Green Path
• Path of the Levinbolt
• Path of Neptune's Might
• Path of Elemental Mastery
• Mastery of the Mortal Shell

• Rituals for defense... some of them:
• Extinguish - Word that can extinguish fire.
• Vires Acquirit Eundo (Extends the time or strength of the ritual. The effect can be different with each new use and/or for different rituals)
• Wards and Circles... soo many wards & circles.
• Ward - DAV20 rituals - Doesn't allow to open, grab, move an object or enter space. If you do not have a password (if provided) or required level in required attribute/trait.
• Shaft of Belated Quiescence - Why not? Walking stake is scary.
• Animated Weapons - Flying halberds.
• Quicksilver Eel (House of Tremere 115) - This parasite will suck out all their quintessence and will.
• Seal Egress - Someone entered and got into a closed room. The door is gone (really it floated away).
• Vigil of the stone guardian - Remote use of Dominate.
• Tame the Maddening Flame DAV20 companion - Fire no longer causes Rothschreck and does less damage.
• Banning Rituals DAV20 companion - Antimagic. Just chose mortal magic and protect area from it. (In theory, with this you can make a shield against magic fire...)
• Summoning spirits and creating servants?
• etc.

You can, after all, use a little help from spirits and demons to protect against magic.


2) For tremere:

• Focused mind - Levels 3 (maybe) & 5.
• Draught of Earth's Blood (Player's Guide to Low Clans - 173)
• Armor of Diamond Serenity (This is Sadhana ritual, some tremere know sadhana)

Is there some sort of ability that I can take a specialization in for better rolls or mechanical benefits?

Occult library.
Specializations in occult... i think it could work...
Ritual: Power of the Pyramid

3) I can suggest option for the pipe. MotM Level = Strength The number of successes depends on number of successes you would need to do it with this strength.

You can (in theory) lift many objects under a certain weight. For example knives or caltrops.
The description says that it is limited by weight. Why not pick up a dozen swords and create a wall?
You can throw wand or chalk or phone out of mage's hands, This requires only 1 level (.
With the second level, you can take mosin rifle and try to stab the mage. Or try to shoot him... (DAV20 rules allowed to use 2 level for manipulating objects, such as sword fencing)

[MyWifeIsScary]

Don't bother with Thaumaturgy, Just use Auspex and Dominate, and money, and maybe guns or bombs. You're not gonna beat a mage in a magic battle, so just use your vampire tricks to win

[anarchorawlsian]

So, we aren't using the V20 corebook, we are using Lore of the Clans from V20 as a merit/discipline supplement to Vampire Revised in lieu of a thousand supplemental books. If the suggestions are in books that are not the Vampire Revised corebook or locked up in V20, it isn't going to work. Sorry if I did not make that clear in the original post.

[Pleiades]

So, we aren't using the V20 corebook, we are using Lore of the Clans from V20 as a merit/discipline supplement to Vampire Revised in lieu of a thousand supplemental books. If the suggestions are in books that are not the Vampire Revised corebook or locked up in V20, it isn't going to work. Sorry if I did not make that clear in the original post.

in that case, MWIS is right, you ain't surviving against mages

[Matt the Bruins fan]

Revised supplements have things like the Thaumaturgical Countermagic path and the Vampire Storyteller's Handbook system for using Thaumaturgy to counter awakened magick (still my favorite such system from a White Wolf game). But if you're only using the Revised Corebook, that gives vampires with Thaumaturgy a Wits + Occult roll to "soak" the mage's successes with those rolled by the vampire. Maybe prioritize those two traits? Odds are even your average Tremere is going to be rolling more dice than the mage will against them, though the latter do have options to reduce their difficulty on the Arete roll.

[anarchorawlsian]

Revised supplements have things like the Thaumaturgical Countermagic path and the Vampire Storyteller's Handbook system for using Thaumaturgy to counter awakened magick (still my favorite such system from a White Wolf game). But if you're only using the Revised Corebook, that gives vampires with Thaumaturgy a Wits + Occult roll to "soak" the mage's successes with those rolled by the vampire. Maybe prioritize those two traits? Odds are even your average Tremere is going to be rolling more dice than the mage will against them, though the latter do have options to reduce their difficulty on the Arete roll.

Understood, I'll talk to my storyteller about potentially using it. As the other posts said and what I hopefully got across, I don't want to trivialize or hard counter magick, just have it make sense for someone to stand a chance.

[No One of Consequence]

I will mention the two Revised Edition sourcebooks, Blood Magic: Secrets of Thaumaturgy and its follow up Blood Sacrifice: The Thaumaturgy Companion, both of which are available on DrivethruRPG.com. (I think Rites of Blood is the V20 Thaumaturgy book, but I'm not familiar enough with V20 to say for sure.)

Additionally, the easiest way to make Mage NPCs in Vampire has always been just to take a mortal and give them multiple dots in suitable Thaumaturgy paths (or Necromancy) and if need be other Disciplines. The advantage to this - aside from not having to bring in more rules/systems - is that the rules for having vampires defend against them is already worked out. (Though I say this being old and desiring as much simplicity in my games as I can get.)

[LastCourier]

Never forget you a vampire, you could pump you stamina to 6(or higher if you have path of blood), thus you could soak all bashing and lethal damage
Fire is a problem but there a ritual that allow to extinguish it, most others source of damage is either lethal or bashing(for example lightning and artificial sunlight is only lethal to a vampire)

There are ritual that allow you to craft talisman that grants you -3diff. on main path and -1 diff.on others but it cost permanent willpower point(it also grants +1 diff. to all magick roll against you, and - 1 on all your Willpower rolls) - Blood Phylactery from players guide to lower clans

The easiest way to use our MotM path is to toss enemy towards you and beat it to death with your strength 6

[Alphari]

artificial sunlight is only lethal to a vampire)

Where is that written? Normal light is harmless.
Or is it some kind of radiation that heats vampire?

[LastCourier]

Where is that written? Normal light is harmless.
Or is it some kind of radiation that heats vampire?

I meant that sunlight created created via Forces is only lethal, not aggravated like real sun rays
Modern artificial is absolutely harmless to a vampire
Its stated in Blood Treachery and in M20 how to do that? and in corebook

[Theodrim]

3) What exactly are the limits of Movement of the Mind besides the weight chart? For example, could you tear a pipe out of socket to dowse a fire, crush a chair with force, etc. If so, what would the roll be?

Actions like that resolve as feats of strength: Willpower roll, diff 9, Strength (and Potence) dots resolve as auto-successes. So theoretically your ST should call for the Willpower check, then allow you to add your MotM rating as dots of Strength, as MotM translates to Strength for basically any other purpose.

The easiest way to use our MotM path is to toss enemy towards you and beat it to death with your strength 6

Or launch the coterie's Brujah/Gangrel at the bad guys. That was my old trick when I played a Tremere in TC -- that is, after buffing the ever-living shit out of their physicals using Path of Blood. Brujah player loved it, since I'd buff him to the point of hunger frenzy with a single roll, then lovingly plant him with a Strength of 8 or 9 within cuisinart range of his next meal.

Telling my ST "no, he doesn't" with an evil grin when he said the conspiracy's Brujah would have to expend an action charging his enemies just never, ever, stopped being funny.