Gehenna is not dead and gone after all!

[Haquim]

This is an extrapolation from the recent WoD video in which Justin Achilli explains the design philosophy behind the new Companion and the Tzimisce, Ravnos and Salubri clans/bloodlines.

HERE YOU GO

At a certain point Justin explains how he's actually writing the new Sabbat book right now and then he mentions that the Final Nights are here... for those who believe that kind of stuff.
As everyone here knows the people most ardently believing into the Final Nights prophecy are the Sabbat true believers. Since Justin is the lead designer behind the new Sabbat book (and W5 btw) it seems Gehenna could very well be one of the prevalent themes of the new book. Personally I like this because in my opinion the noddist angle was one of the most interesting aspects of the Sabbat in previous editions. This is an aspect of the game V5 toned down a lot but I feel it very appropriate and thematic for Sabbat games giving the sect an unique aspect differentiating it from the Camarilla and the Anarchs which is something I hope happens so we may avoid the Sabbat yet again supplanting the Anarchs instead of being a third unique Sect.

[Mister_Dunpeal]

Well it was always kinda cyclic, and I think alot of people have argued that whatever happened in the original 'Gehenna' supplement wasn't the absolute end (AFAIK it wasn't MEANT to be definitive and the book left plenty of opportunities for things continue on as they were. Or continue changed in some manner. Or just end. It hinged on how the Storyteller wanted to handle it all.) The transition from revised to 5th (and/or with 20th included) might just reflect what happened with the transition and how its explained. I never thought of things in WoD ever truly being 'dead' or 'gone' unless someone wanted them to be (things always have a way of coming back in some form...)

[Talvas]

Does anyone else wonder if it is the end and they'll only be pushing werewolf from now on?

I've seen a lot of VtM "isn't feasible" threads where werewolf players try to poke holes in the masquerade and everything else Vampire.

And with this guy as the lead on werewolf, I expect much more werewolves will be controlling the Vampires at the very least and I'll have to deal with even more werewolf supremacy in my games I play.

I'm not knocking the guy, I'm just genuinely wondering.

[Chris24601]

Highly unlikely. Don't confuse volume for bandwidth. Per the post and thread counts, Werewolf is a distant third behind Mage in terms of number of people talking about it while Vampire almost has more than all four of the rest of the splat types put together.

Vampire has ALWAYS been the money-maker for the World of Darkness (and I say this as someone who is first and foremost a Mage fan). You'd be far more likely to see Werewolves retconned into a Vampire clan than any sort of Werewolves are now the king of the splats.

Frankly, how viable the Masquerade would be in the real world isn't important. All that matters is that its plausible enough that you can suspend disbelief and say "sure, I suppose there could be a hidden society of vampires moving behind the scenes without notice."

Beyond that, how plausible it is doesn't matter any more than the plausibility that a line of Sith with no more than one master and one apprentice at any one time could successfully last a thousand years without at least one situation occurring where the lone master dies before he can find an apprentice and not once tips off the Jedi to their existence. The Masquerade has held until now because the story needs it to have held up until now.

[Resplendent Fire]

Yeah, for some reason some players are very competitive about their favorite games and love to argue that Vampire is inferior and that vampires are inferior. It's pointless posturing, not something to really worry about.

[Penelope]

I think having Gehenna hovering somewhere in the near future is a good thing overall, but I’d rather keep it kind of nebulous and undefined at least for now. I never read the Gehenna book, but from what I’ve heard in the forums only the Lilith ending would’ve had any appeal for me, and even that not really.

[Dwight]

Thats a lot of mental gymnastics Justin pulled off to justify that change to vicissitude. Waiting on the french judge to see if it qualified for the gold medal.

[Damian May]

Does anyone else wonder if it is the end and they'll only be pushing werewolf from now on?

I've seen a lot of VtM "isn't feasible" threads where werewolf players try to poke holes in the masquerade and everything else Vampire.

And with this guy as the lead on werewolf, I expect much more werewolves will be controlling the Vampires at the very least and I'll have to deal with even more werewolf supremacy in my games I play.

I'm not knocking the guy, I'm just genuinely wondering.

Justin has developed and written for VtM for decades; he's been Lead Developer for VtM and written for well over 100 Vampire titles......I think your kinda just making things up in your head.

[Taggie]

Thats a lot of mental gymnastics Justin pulled off to justify that change to vicissitude. Waiting on the french judge to see if it qualified for the gold medal.

And the addition of Dominate...which means war ghouls would never have been needed in the first place...oh and that the mysticism is gone from the clan ofc, because auspex is lost.

[Nehekhare]

And the addition of Dominate...which means war ghouls would never have been needed in the first place...oh and that the mysticism is gone from the clan ofc, because auspex is lost.

I would argue that Dominate (mind-wipe, conditioning, Domitor's Favor) is an integral part of creating War Ghouls in the first place, the wierd part being that current Fleshcraft rules do not support the physical characteristica of Szlachta or Vozhd (most obvious: them sporting Feral Weapons that Viscissitude cannot provide).

About the "loss" of Auspex I think it fits the bestial Nature of the Tzimisce more to use Animalism in its stead: Powers like Sense the Beast and One with the Land give them everything they need to be "mystical" in their own characterful blood-witch-y koldunic way, leaving the profane aspects of Enhanced Senses and Telepathy to the Toreador. Powers like Share the Senses (i.e. Subsume the Spirit of mortals) prove that Animalism is the Awareness Discipline new Auspex wishes it could be, see Animalism is the new Auspex?

[Pleiades]

I would argue that Dominate (mind-wipe, conditioning, Domitor's Favor) is an integral part of creating War Ghouls in the first place

animalism actually,

traditionally, tzimisce would use koldunism to keep the warghouls stable,
then some tzimisce substituted it with animalism

[Dwight]

animalism actually,

traditionally, tzimisce would use koldunism to keep the warghouls stable,
then some tzimisce substituted it with animalism

This, furthermore I would argue that due to the creation process what's left dosen't possess enough of a rational mind for dominate to work on.

[Taggie]

I would argue that Dominate (mind-wipe, conditioning, Domitor's Favor) is an integral part of creating War Ghouls in the first place, the wierd part being that current Fleshcraft rules do not support the physical characteristica of Szlachta or Vozhd (most obvious: them sporting Feral Weapons that Viscissitude cannot provide).

About the "loss" of Auspex I think it fits the bestial Nature of the Tzimisce more to use Animalism in its stead: Powers like Sense the Beast and One with the Land give them everything they need to be "mystical" in their own characterful blood-witch-y koldunic way, leaving the profane aspects of Enhanced Senses and Telepathy to the Toreador. Powers like Share the Senses (i.e. Subsume the Spirit of mortals) prove that Animalism is the Awareness Discipline new Auspex wishes it could be, see Animalism is the new Auspex?

They used, blood oath, torture, mutilation, Koldunism or Animalism to do that. IF you have Dominate, you don't need war ghouls, you just dominate and blood bind some SWAT or similar, far simpler, and more versatile.

[Dwight]

They used, blood oath, torture, mutilation, Koldunism or Animalism to do that. IF you have Dominate, you don't need war ghouls, you just dominate and blood bind some SWAT or similar, far simpler, and more versatile.

Ghouled swat teams lack the class and old world charm of an 8ft tall three headed flesh monster

[Mister_Dunpeal]

One could imagine that each Tzimisce has their own 'recipes' for creating different kinds of ghouls including war ghouls. And that some of the Disciplines may differ in the implementation to create different effects depending on what is desired (or as Taggie notes... use other non-Discipline methods like tortrue, blood oath, etc.) At worst, its just another step in the process making it more difficult, but not impossible I think.

Ghouled swat teams lack the class and old world charm of an 8ft tall three headed flesh monster

Make your 8ft tall three headed flesh monster from SWAT team members so it's also wearing stitched-on body armor and guns attached (firing method left up to the creator's imagination and whatever parts might be left over.)