Gehenna is not dead and gone after all!

[Taggie]

Ghouled swat teams lack the class and old world charm of an 8ft tall three headed flesh monster

True, but those three headed monsters where developed in the first place because they didn't have the option of domination of militia (of which ever type) in the first place. As were ghoul families in fact, neither make sense when other, faster options are available.

[Dwight]

As were ghoul families in fact, neither make sense when other, faster options are available.

Some mortal aristocrats spend their whole life breeding dogs, what better way to while away a few centuries then breeding the perfect family of servants

[MyWifeIsScary]

15th century firearms>>>Humanoid War ghouls, to say nothing of modern guns, though I understand guns are way too loud and hard to obtain in some places so... but ignoring that, I'm under the impression that Tzmisce made human war ghouls more because they can and it's fun and a good show of their skills than any sense of practicality. 'war ghouls' work much better with animals; dogs are bred for specific purposes, but it's so much better to be able to engineer dogs or rats or bats or whatever for specific purposes. That said, I'm also under the impression that Lobotomized people (and small children, and idiots) are under the scope of Animalism rather than Dominate.

Gehenna to me is like.... eh.
Always round the corner.
The cyclical gehenna idea's nice and I had similar ideas at first but as the idea fermented I'm finding it out of favour. At least the v5 interpretation's very underwhelming. "this is the apocalypse right now" is just... where's the fear? I like the idea that it's religious fervour that drives the plot but probably won't happen but if I do actually do it at my table it's going to be bombastic, with Ratkin and...

[Nehekhare]

those three headed monsters where developed in the first place because they didn't have the option of domination of militia (of which ever type) in the first place. As were ghoul families in fact, neither make sense when other, faster options are available.

By that logic, Dominate would never have been developed because the persuasion skill already exists -.-
Dominate isn't capable of creating lasting, loyal servants - the conditioning power is no more and even before it only created drones. It cannot produce SWAT Retrainers. You need blood-bound ghouls with Disciplines for that, and Dominate 2 is now the go-to-power to make the Vinculum stick. Also, Dominate works where Animalism doesn't (yet) apply. Last but not least where do you think the immunity to mind-control that some "conditioned" Szlachta possess comes from?

[Dwight]

Last but not least where do you think the immunity to mind-control that some "conditioned" Szlachta possess comes from?

Can't dominate the lizard brain my friend, read up on cases of feral children and tell me dominate would work on them.

[Black Fox]

I haven't viewed the interview, but in terms of the "classic" vozhd/war ghouls of the Tzimisce, I do have a comment to share. When I eliminate Viccisitude from my Vampire games, I gave the Tzimisce Protean as a replacement Discipline. I never liked Necroscope style vampires. However, I did like things like the strange Blood Brothers bloodline and other odd things the Tzimisce had helped create for the Sabbat which the game had said was a result (whole or partial) of Vicissitude. So I had to come up with a replacement. I said they were created by a variant or knowledge of the Biothaumaturgy Path, which basically is the work of Dr Frankenstein. It was all top secret NPC level stuff in the Sabbat, so I never defined rules for it. But I think assigning them to some level or form of Blood Magic is sufficient explanation.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Nehekhare Points of Order:
-Conditioning could totally create an effective SWAT team. It's a 4th level Dominate power, not a strange ritual to steal souls and turn people into badly programmed androids for novelty's sake.

-Immunity to mind control is due to lobotomy/the many many minds that make up these monsters.

-Viscissitude has considerable social capabilities "I made you/your deformed son/ugly spouse beautiful so serve me forever or I'll take it away/ I fucked up your face but if you serve me real well I'll undo it/ we made a deal and this tattoo is a sign of it and you'll totally lose your soul if you disobey me... and so on and so forth. You're an.... No, wait, better rephrase that. "It would be foolish to think Tzmisce need Dominate" (for this reason and others)

[Saur Ops Specialist]

Can't dominate the lizard brain my friend

Well, yes, imaginary constructs dreamt up by out of touch researchers with a preconceived notion of how brains function are rather hard to get a grip on, what with not really existing and all.

[Dwight]

Well, yes, imaginary constructs dreamt up by out of touch researchers with a preconceived notion of how brains function are rather hard to get a grip on, what with not really existing and all.

I'm sorry; didn't know using the common terminology to explain the parts of brain that cover basic instincts like fight or flight would ruin your day. I'll be sure to crack out my grays anatomy next time

[Nehekhare]

Nehekhare Points of Order:
-Conditioning could totally create an effective SWAT team. It's a 4th level Dominate power, not a strange ritual to steal souls and turn people into badly programmed androids for novelty's sake.

a) and it doesn't exist anymore, because it was a superfluous Vinculum surrogate in the first place.
b) quote: "retrainers become like automatons or the walking dead"

-Immunity to mind control is due to lobotomy/the many many minds that make up these monsters.

as with the Feral Weapons equivalent, there is no power as per RAW to explain how Szlachta gain this property, which is a tragic plot hole. So you make up your own explanations. Mine is based on the Dominate Power Domitor's Favor and the Dominate Amalgam component of all Fleshcrafting. Another would be giving them the Fortitude power Unswayable Mind by making them Ghouls, somehow augmented (by an augmented Vinculum perhaps?).

-"It would be foolish to think Tzmisce need Dominate"

They need it to manipulate the mind as well as the flesh.
a) Dominate is an integral part of the Dracula trope.
b) Old Clan Tzimisce had Dominate instead of Viscissitude as a Clan Discipline (before Dominate changed into Viscissitude because of aliens).
c) Viscissitude is a Dominate amalgam for many a reason: c.1) Imagine trying to change eye color by "molding it like clay" with your fingers instead of willing the flesh to obey your commands. c.2) Protean needs Dominate as a manipulation discipline to apply it to others/living flesh. c.3) The V5 Viscissitude effects are hilariously underpowered and ineffective, to the point of not supporting Szlachta creation, so a little more Ooomph!/Muhaha is very welcome.

Really, you think a member of a SWAT Team would do your bidding instead of kicking your arse when you overpower him (without dominate!), fixate him to a table and work surgery on him for several hours (why do I need a discipline for that?) to make him look slightly more ugly than before? Classic Revenge story prologue/villain's hubris plan explanation trope, actually.

In fact, what Tzimisce don't need is Auspex, for they have Animalism.

[Pleiades]

No, wait, better rephrase that. "It would be foolish to think Tzmisce need Dominate" (for this reason and others)

you actually mentioned good reasons for them to need it:

15th century firearms>>>Humanoid War ghouls

-Conditioning could totally create an effective SWAT team. It's a 4th level Dominate power, not a strange ritual to steal souls and turn people into badly programmed androids for novelty's sake.

[MyWifeIsScary]

a) and it doesn't exist anymore, because it was a superfluous Vinculum surrogate in the first place.
b) quote: "retrainers become like automatons or the walking dead"

A: They're not the same at all? Conditioning is primarily for mortals, Viniculum is there for vampires. Conditioning is "Obey me" Vinciulum is "don't screw me over"...
B: "Walking dead" doesn't mean they develop all the competence of a Romero zombie. Clearly we're talking more T-800. .

They need it to manipulate the mind as well as the flesh.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

a) Dominate is an integral part of the Dracula trope.

Who the fuck is Dracula and why do you care?

b) Old Clan Tzimisce had Dominate instead of Viscissitude as a Clan Discipline (before Dominate changed into Viscissitude because of aliens).

Old Clan Tzmisce aren't actually the older clan.

c) Viscissitude is a Dominate amalgam for many a reason: c.1) Imagine trying to change eye color by "molding it like clay" with your fingers instead of willing the flesh to obey your commands. c.2) Protean needs Dominate as a manipulation discipline to apply it to others/living flesh. c.3) The V5 Viscissitude effects are hilariously underpowered and ineffective, to the point of not supporting Szlachta creation, so a little more Ooomph!/Muhaha is very welcome.

Alright, finely manipulating the iris, possibly using dyes or external items, is more stupid than telling someone to have green eyes. Right. That's enough internet for today.

Really, you think a member of a SWAT Team would do your bidding instead of kicking your arse when you overpower him (without dominate!), fixate him to a table and work surgery on him for several hours (why do I need a discipline for that?) to make him look slightly more ugly than before? Classic Revenge story prologue/villain's hubris plan explanation trope, actually.

This is the worst possible.... a lot of things, really.

In fact, what Tzimisce don't need is Auspex, for they have Animalism.

Ventrue dont' need Dominate for they have Presence, and Nosferatu don't need obfuscate because of animalism and... why am I bothering to refute such tripe?

[MyWifeIsScary]

you actually mentioned good reasons for them to need it:

Indeed I did. But for your consideration:

- Sufficiently dangerous Firearms have only been around for a little over half a century. The Tzmisce have been around for several millenia. It's kinda like how humans have evolved several features for hunter gatherers even though we live in civilizations now; just because we don't need them so much anymore doesn't mean there's all that much pressure to get rid of them.

-While humanoid war ghouls are crap and you shouldn't use them outside of a few niches, the ability to shape appearances and go beyond the capabilities of modern surgery is a very powerful social tool; you can trap people with indebtedness or convince them you've put satans mark on them or otherwise try to make a considerable profit. Vicissitude helps you acquire allies, influence and resources, and Influence and Resources >>>> Dominate. Auspex and animalism really are the perfect supplements for Vicissitude.

[Nehekhare]

A: Conditioning is primarily for mortals, Viniculum is there for vampires. [...]
B: "Walking dead" doesn't mean they develop all the competence of a Romero zombie. Clearly we're talking more T-800. .

That's just like, your opinion, man. [also quote ] That's not how a Blood Bond (Vinculum) works ... have you played VtM?

Who the fuck is Dracula and why do you care?

a) Title of a famous Bram Stoker story b) see p. 64 of the 1995 Tzimisce clan book (also the entry quote of the book) ... in which edition did you start Vampire?

Old Clan Tzmisce aren't actually the older clan.

Temporal vocabulary becomes a bit mumbled when applied to retconned fictional histories.

That's enough internet for today.

why am I bothering to refute such tripe?

indeed.

[MyWifeIsScary]

What a lot of people fail to understand is that, although Dracula's a Tzmisce, the Tzmisce aren't Dracula. To rub some salt in, he's a revenant bloodline as well, yeah? I'm not really sure why so many fail to understand this. Should I mark myself a genius for understanding the fucking obvious?

(also you should really re-read the rules for viniculum it's nowhere near as strong as Dominate)