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  • #46
    The sabbat is a religious bloc, first and foremost.
    Every cainite has "the Antediluvian devils are coming, judgement day is coming" driven in them at shovelpoint and reinforced constantly. Many who seem like standard vampires are just waiting to be radicalized and go fight, doesn't matter if they're warriors or not. It happened before in the rl crusades, with the people's crusade, so its not that surprising.
    All they needed was Polonia to try to regain his lost power by appealing to mass religious hysteria and boom, keg lit. Now what's left of the sabbat at home is probably being held together by the inquisition.

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    • #47
      Having the capacity for religious fervour doesn't mean they live their lives in religious fervour, or at least, they only drink the cool-aid on sundays.

      The sabbat, by being religious nutters, actually have more social cohesion than the camarilla. In the Cam, the only common-interest between vampires are clan, stability, and the economy of favours. The Sabbat gives people shared moral values, it gives them a higher purpose, it gives them a reason to band together (fear of the outside) and it gives them communal activities and a genuine sense of belonging. Virtually all Sabbat ideals put value on the community, and in developing the community. "the antideluvians are coming" gives them all the reason to band together, not to split apart and go nuts.

      Now, as for the peasants crusade...
      Gonna go out on a limb here, but generally, vampires are above average people. The people selected, the shovelheads who survived, then the people who make it past the first few years and those high mortality rates... generally, they're above average types. They might not feel that they're above average enough, but 7/5/3 is fucking super. To top it off, their peers are all above average people, and they can find smart people (ghouls) to help them think if they're not really all that good at it.
      Few of such people are going to want to -peasants crusade- themselves into the jaws of hungry blood-gods, even with the religious drive. The peoples crusades were largely done by people who had nothing and had more to gain than to lose. And while yes, certainly, a few packs are going to have more to gain than to lose, most vampires are territorial and have built up their fiefdoms and don't want to lose them. A Crusade would be a stabilizing factor; you'd get rid of the surplus riff-raff who've been eyeing the nice territories, you'd avoid the crusade and send other people in your place if you actually had land and such. The Sabbat wouldn't vanish for the middle east, is what I'm saying.


      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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      • #48
        Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
        The sabbat, by being religious nutters, actually have more social cohesion than the camarilla.
        I actually disagree with this a lot. The Sabbat had three civil wars; two of which lasted for multiple decades each. There are major political disputes concerning with the structure of the sect and the amount of central control its leadership should have. The third civil war only ended quickly because the Panders were recognized as a "clan", but while that shift in loyalty caused the war to suddenly collapse, it should be a another destabilizing source in itself. The Loyalists should always be a major source of dissent.

        Then we have all the Paths of Enlightenment. And not all of those are truly compatible with each other. Someone on the Path of Night who believes in terrifying, but not killing, mortals, is going to have problems with someone who has no problem with killing. While internal conflicts revolving around the various Paths is not something that got developed in any sourcebook I know, it has to occur. It can be ameliorated to some degree by voluntary self-segregation - adherents of this Path go to this city and conflicting Paths avoid it and head to these instead - but it will still lead to some amount of tension.

        And you have the traditional clan enmities as well. Brujah antitribu will be just as dissident and troublemaking as Brujah elsewhere. The Tremere antitribu are still a source of resentment for many other clans (if they are still around in your chronicles). Nosferatu antitribu seem even more withdrawn than their Camarilla counterparts, and in fact even meet with them to discuss common cause; making that clan's adherence (to both sects) merely nominal. The Gangrel were even split into two competing factions. I could go on.

        If you like the idea that Infernalism is a major problem, then you have them and the Sabbat Inquisition creating problems.

        I think the Sabbat's nutjobbery and Vinculum, far from making it more socially cohesive than the Camarilla, merely the reason why the Sabbat is able to stay together at all.

        But I admit I really disliked Revised's interpretation of the Sabbat as a unified Sword of Caine (that could gain immediate loyalty from even more disparate groups of vampires who had never previously been part of the sect). It was fine as a "I'm running actual Gehenna in my chronicle, and this is one aspect of that" chronicle specific plot. Terrible from a setting perspective as it violated prior continuity and invalidated alternative interpretations of the earlier material. It's what many Lasombra and Tzimisce want the Sabbat to be like, but they have lots of obstacles to overcome to do so.

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        • #49
          you would do well to remember that a lot of seemingly very dysfuntional cults work very well irl. The viniculum is just gravy for the Sabbat, it's not essential for their operation.


          Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
          There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
            you would do well to remember that a lot of seemingly very dysfuntional cults work very well irl. The viniculum is just gravy for the Sabbat, it's not essential for their operation.
            it is,
            vampires don't work like humans, comparing them to irl cults isn't reliable

            in VtM, vampires are contentious loners with trust issues, they don't work well in groups (compared to, say, werewolves who are the opposite),
            or I should say, they don't work well in groups ouside the blood bounds,
            this is more the case for vampires of lower humanity, or vampires on paths,
            the higher on a path, the more the vampire isolates themselves from the group,
            only exception being the path of the Feral Heart, who gives more importance to the pack and the vinculum

            the sabbat is nothing without the vinculum and other ritae,
            in the gehenna book, the moment the vinculum stops working, the sabbat tears itself apart despite the threat of humanity and antideluvians


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            • #51
              For me, The drive of vampire is the 'fear of being caught'. Fundamentally, we're playing criminals, even if we're aiming to be 10 humanity saints we're still monsters that suck blood. We do all-sorts of crazy stuff to avoid being caught. Vampires might be 'contentious loners with trust issues' but they look for co-conspirators and they embrace for piers and they need a web to keep them up. A conspiracy with one person's just not a conspiracy...


              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                Vampires might be 'contentious loners with trust issues' but they look for co-conspirators and they embrace for piers and they need a web to keep them up. A conspiracy with one person's just not a conspiracy...
                yes, that's why we have blood bond, vinculum, dominate/presence, sect law, boons, peer pressure, blackmail etc

                the vampires on average humanity are more likely to take the risk and trust others, and maybe even tolerate getting betrayed

                the elders or other lower humanity though, need the security the sect provides them and whatever web of blood bonds, debts and pressure and whatever else that prevents others from stabbing them in the back


                in the sabbat, these issues are even more pronouced due to the low humanity and the predatory/contentious nature of paths of enlightenment,
                but the vinculum and ritae prevents things from going overboard (doesn't always work)


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                • #53
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  Now, as for the peasants crusade...
                  Gonna go out on a limb here, but generally, vampires are above average people. The people selected, the shovelheads who survived, then the people who make it past the first few years and those high mortality rates... generally, they're above average types.
                  Vampires are above average people, but the threats they face are also above average threats. Their own existence is proof for them, stuff like the WoN shows how far the reach of the ancients is. They just had to be convinced that, no matter how much they had, the antediluvians would take everything from them.

                  The people who participated in the popular crusade didn't just think about gains. There was a sponsored fear that muslims would surge forward and kill non-believers, a sentiment that persisted for a long time in folk christian beliefs about judgement day. The equivalent in the sabbat is that, since the ancients can reach them anywhere in the world, they should just take the fight to them and destroy them.

                  With all that being said, I do hope they roll back how much the sabbat disappeared from north america. I always thought the GC should have been a 50/50 split solution to a civil war between the hand and the inquisition.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by El Barto View Post

                    The equivalent in the sabbat is that, since the ancients can reach them anywhere in the world, they should just take the fight to them and destroy them.
                    if that's the case, why did the sabbat move to america when all antediluvians and meths were in europe/middle east?
                    Last edited by Pleiades; 01-18-2021, 02:34 PM.


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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                      if that's the case, why did the sabbat move to america when all antediluvians and meths were in europe/middle east?
                      They needed an area untouched by them to grow unchecked and establish a permanent power base.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Dwight View Post

                        They needed an area untouched by them to grow unchecked and establish a permanent power base.
                        exactly,

                        now they go 180 and decide to leave their "permanent" powerbase they worked on for 200 years and go back to europe? makes no sense


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Pleiades View Post

                          exactly,

                          now they go 180 and decide to leave their "permanent" powerbase they worked on for 200 years and go back to europe? makes no sense
                          Soliders go where the war is, problem is a lot of them never thought it would actually come.

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                          • #58
                            If you're going to war in the middle east, it helps greatly to influence the mortal societies that are also interfering with the middle east. Giving up on the USA, A nation where the need to go to war is decided upon by weapons manufacturers, which uses million dollar missiles instead of cheap artillery, and which fires off guns because they have too much ammunition coming in... That's just fucking stupid.
                            There's also the prospect that the middle east is a ruse and abandoning their prosperous lands for war-torn ones will just give the Antes and the Cam an unfathomable advantage when the antes rear there head elsewhere or the Cam decides to guide those missiles.


                            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                              There's also the prospect that the middle east is a ruse and abandoning their prosperous lands for war-torn ones will just give the Antes and the Cam an unfathomable advantage when the antes rear there head elsewhere or the Cam decides to guide those missiles.
                              A reminder that Vitel, the guy who owns the place where the government, pentagon and half the ABC agencies are, and who's still under the SI radar, might not actually be Vitel.

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                              • #60
                                I don't know what you're talking about because I generally don't read city books but it seems silly. This Vitel guy owns the place where the goverment, pentagon and half the ABC agencies are? That sounds silly. And he's on the SI's radar? Also silly. And he might not actually be the guy? Yeah, Ok, I'm not going to refute that, but just because a book says something does not make it reasonable. Are you saying the vampires of washington allowed one vampire to hold all the important eggs in his one basket, who presumably isn't some kind of heaven-defying methuselah?

                                Imagine for a moment, the European parliament, the USA, India, Russia and China are all actually controlled by the Rhodesia-born Prussian; Nguyen, a member of the Prussian Illuminati. When Nguyen's replaced by his not-at-all related countryman, also called Nguyen, The European Parliament, The USA, India, Russia and China all... start hunting Prussians... nah shit i'm having too much fun writing utter bullshit and this doesn't make any sense no more. The point is that vampires aren't going to let one middling Vitel have his fingers in all the explosive pies and not have a contingency plan. That's more insane than the nonsense I wrote prior. Let alone forming a contingency plan, who lets vitel have all this power in the first place? Do vampires lose reasoning upon the embrace? Did the Antedeluvians covertly Dominate this contrivance for shits and giggles?


                                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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