How to detain a lupine?

[JustAnotherCaitiff]

Hello, everyone. I need to know how to keep a werewolf from stepping sideways into the Penumbra to escape captivity.

In short, a Path of Bones Mentor has been alerted to the existence of a pack of werewolves at the local nature preserve, wants to study their ability to cross the Shroud, and has tasked one of the PCs, a Samedi who hopes to join her Path, with capturing one. Of course, the mentor knows this is basically a suicide mission, but the crafty PC has made a sideways deal with a Demon to have an injured lupine whisked away during a Cammy raid on the park (PCs are Anarch). He just needs to prepare a holding place, and more importantly, figure out how to keep it from just vanishing once it regains consciousness.

I have been trying to find out if there have been any canon ways for him to prevent the Garou from stepping sideways, but I can't really find any. Would silver shackles prevent the stepping? Would a silver box contain a werewolf in the Penumbra? Of course, as the ST, I can always rule one way or the other, and I am leaning on the side of none of those options working, but I am curious about canon, as well as what all of your opinions would be.

[Pleiades]

depends on edition you're running,

iirc, Lupines need a reflective surface to step into the umbra in 2nd ed and w20,
in Revised they can step anywhere

silver shackles wouldn't help, they'd just continuously damage the werewolf till they die

the only way I think might work is torture to strip willpower, mesmerizing with dominate 3 or conditionning with dominate 4,
but I'm not sure either is reliable

[JustAnotherCaitiff]

depends on edition you're running,

iirc, Lupines need a reflective surface to step into the umbra in 2nd ed and w20,
in Revised they can step anywhere

silver shackles wouldn't help, they'd just damage the werewolf till they die

the only way I think might work is torture to strip willpower, mesmerizing with dominate 3 or conditionning with dominate 4,
but I'm not sure either is reliable

The way I am planning on running it is that the werewolf does need a reflective surface, but it can be mobile, and any Uktena (the tribe they are likely dealing with) worth their salt will carry one. Also, the PCs are probably going to accidentally provide one, depending on how much silver they plan to use.

[Aleph]

The way I am planning on running it is that the werewolf does need a reflective surface, but it can be mobile, and any Uktena (the tribe they are likely dealing with) worth their salt will carry one.

Kidnappers worth their salt should register their victims. If you think your players migth not realize this is an option, describe a bag or other obvious container (like, be explicit about the pants having big pockets) as part of the narration.

If the PC still don't register the dude, fault it's on them - you may ask an Intelligence check to find the mirror anyway, if you're feeling extra generous

Also, the PCs are probably going to accidentally provide one, depending on how much silver they plan to use.

Unless your players do something that would necessarily cause such a consequence, this won't be a problem. If it's just a big amount of silver, it may still not be polished enough to be reflective. But if the most natural consequence would be to have big amounts of shiny & reflective silver, at that point...well, the PC are going to gain a valuable piece of Werewolf Lore (or you could rule that reflective surfaces of silver don't work)

A good roll of Int + Occult could also provide hints to the players about this power, to discourage them from keeping reflective surfaces near. A good opportunity for your more Knowledge oriented PCs to shine

[JustAnotherCaitiff]

Kidnappers worth their salt should register their victims. If you think your players migth not realize this is an option, describe a bag or other obvious container (like, be explicit about the pants having big pockets) as part of the narration.

If the PC still don't register the dude, fault it's on them - you may ask an Intelligence check to find the mirror anyway, if you're feeling extra generous

What do you mean by "register?" Like, give their victim a pat-down to check for items and stuff? Well, the werewolf is being teleported in by a Demon, and I think the players are under the impression that the werewolf will be unconscious from damage, but I am not even 100% decided on if the Demon will be that friendly, since the Samedi PC kinda stole the task given to another PC (the Tremere who originally made contact with the Demon.) So, basically, the need for a pat-down will likely become obvious to them quite quickly.

I had not thought of the silver needing to be polished to be reflective enough to work for the lupine's needs, so that is absolutely going in my notes, so I don't accidentally punish the players for using silver.

[MyWifeIsScary]

-High gauntlet rating, of course that probably won't be something the characters can really know about without considerable occult. A Weaver/Wyrm environment (either artificial/very toxic or some combination of the two... a poluted factory, a hospital of abuse...) will make it harder.
-Rituals. Just use rituals like wards or something. If it exists, there's magic for it.
-Strong drugs. The majority of lupines are susceptible to drugs if in breed form. (IMO everyone should strive for Resist Toxin because it's essential and you're an idiot if you don't get it, but apparently it's not that widespread)
-Contract powerful or nasty spirits to block the umbra
-attack the eyes and leave the object in to block regeneration. Or use silver.
-Take hostages, or use the werewolf's magic fetishes (if any) as hostages.

Also like, if the guy tests their ability to dissapear he's going to have the werewolf dissapear on him, yeah?

[JustAnotherCaitiff]

-High gauntlet rating, of course that probably won't be something the characters can really know about without considerable occult. A Weaver/Wyrm environment (either artificial/very toxic or some combination of the two... a poluted factory, a hospital of abuse...) will make it harder.
-Rituals. Just use rituals like wards or something. If it exists, there's magic for it.
-Strong drugs. The majority of lupines are susceptible to drugs if in breed form. (IMO everyone should strive for Resist Toxin because it's essential and you're an idiot if you don't get it, but apparently it's not that widespread)
-Contract powerful or nasty spirits to block the umbra
-attack the eyes and leave the object in to block regeneration. Or use silver.
-Take hostages, or use the werewolf's magic fetishes (if any) as hostages.

Also like, if the guy tests their ability to dissapear he's going to have the werewolf dissapear on him, yeah?

I had thought of Warding Circle v. Lupines, but I wasn't sure how that would interact if said lupine were in the Penumbra instead of the physical plane. Obviously, I can always just say that a circle works to contain it, or allow the player to try to develop a ritual in-game that strengthens the gauntlet in an area, but that seemed a little too deus ex machina to me. I believe they are going to meet with some local "experts" in our next game on Friday, so that is a great opportunity for me to provide that information about certain places having a thicker barrier naturally.

Love your suggestions of drugs and attacking the eyes though, I hadn't thought of either of those. I am not a Werewolf player, and have been skimming W20 and the wiki for the info I need to handle it in our game, so I had assumed that Lupines were as equally resistant to drugs as Kindred are, just bc of spiritual reasons instead of undead reasons. Also, It seems obvious to me now, but gouging out their eyes is a pretty great way to keep them from meditating on their reflection.

And yes, they would like to see the lupine try to step sideways, but I think the Samedi player is hoping to keep the Lupine for further study/dissection.

[Black Fox]

Some thing that many people forget is that in cities the Gauntlet is high, and that there are hostile spirits to Garou (Banes and Weaver spirits) in the Penumbra there. The Gauntlet is likely to be 7 or 8, and therefore probably easy to fail by many Garou. Not all Garou have high Gnosis, and those that do tend to not like the city as they can feel the city as a scab on Gaia's body. Simple failure means waiting another hour before making an attempt again. Botching means the Garou is "caught" in the Gauntlet for at least an hour, and vulnerable to spirit predators. Obviously, this is more dangerous when done in the city than in the wilderness.

So any Garou should consider these kind of dangers before they try to step sideways because it's possible they'll be in even worse situation. A lot of people tend to forget this and think Garou can go back and forth without issue. In practice, it's much harder especially if it is only one Garou without packmates to help out. So I think it's entirely possible the lupine might try to bade his time to find a better time to attempt to step sideways.

= = = =
Also, Garou do not cross the Shroud into the Underworld. They cross the Gauntlet into the Middle World. A few rare Garou do have means to enter the Underworld, but that's done via a Rite and very few Garou know that. So your Mentor on the Path of Bones is going to be very disappointed. But I think it's OK the Mentor has his facts wrong. He can't know everything.

= = =
Silver does no damage to a Garou in breed form (though it is an effective deterrent to prevent it from changing shape). Though carrying lots of silver may lead to a temporary loss of 1-2 Gnosis. Worse, in order to be effective, silver must be highly pure. Silver is a highly soft, ductile, and malleable metal. So what kind of shackle are they intending to use? If it has alloys in order to make it hard to break, it's useless as a defense against Garou. If it is in a purer form, you now risk the Garou being able to break out of if given enough time, or if he has enough strength. And while silver is certainly affordable in small amounts, it can get expensive quick by buying large amounts. A pair of handcuffs wouldn't weigh much, but if made of pure silver, it probably has a lot of weak connections that will break with enough pressure and time.

= = =
Garou are highly resistant to drugs and poisons, but not immune unless they have the Gift Resist Toxin. Things that would kill ordinary people may just reduce their dice pools. and when they do take damage from poisons, they could Regenerate and heal the damage (though they need to not be in breed form to do this).

= = =
Please note it may not be easy, going by the rules, for people to discover mirrors on the Garou's person and remove them. Many Garou have the Rite of Talisman Dedication performed on them that "binds" items to their person so they aren't ruined or lost when changing forms, or crossing over into the umbra. This is a very common rite, and besides a set of clothes, something like a handheld mirror will probably be one of the first items dedicated to them since they won't want to risk losing it. Now of course, if in homid form, that mirror is likely a mirror in their pocket, and not "on" the body like it would be if they were in different form. But as an ST in a Werewolf game, I'd likely allow the Garou to make a partial transformation roll to shift the dedicated mirror so it couldn't be taken away. Of course, that's at a high difficulty and costs Willpower. That's assuming the Garou doesn't just change forms so the mirror can't be taken from them. Of course, if the lupine is unconscious when the PCs first get to him, that's irrelevant (and I think this is your scenario).

= = =
The greater danger is not from the captured Garou. But from his packmates who will mount a fairly quick mission to find and rescue him. And there are LOTS of ways a pack of Garou might find the location of a lost packmate. The Rite of the Questing Stone is a level one rite that will easily navigate them to the location of their friend. Garou have pack totems, and totems can be very helpful for very little build cost. It would not be uncommon for a pack totem of a starting group of PCs to be able to always find pack members, or even be mystically connected with all members and allow instant communication. Plus there are other gifts and rites and powers that can do the same. Plus you know, there's scent.

(And this isn't even considering powers that may be available to the captured lupine. A Ragabash with the first level Gift Open Seal won't be imprisoned for long. A Galliard with Beast Speech could get help from local rats or other animals. And if the Garou is more experienced and has access to more Gifts, he could do a lot more.)

If his packmates saw him (or learn) that he was abducted by a demon or a group of vampires, then not only might the pack come, but other local Garou might join in as well.

The pack may not have these powers, but they probably have something. And these are things it is highly unlikely any vampire can know about or prepare for. Given a long enough time period, that Garou is extremely likely to be found. How long that is depends on what you as ST give to these other lupine NPCs. But if the players wait long enough, it should end badly for them. In this scenario, they longer they interact with the captured lupine, the worse it is for them since the lupine can pick up more information about them - their physical appearance, names and other information inadvertently name dropped, perhaps other details.

= = = =
You can always stack the deck against the lupine. After all, your vampire PCs are the stars of your game.

But if I was running it knowing what I know from Werewolf, and wanting it to be true to that game, I'd give the PCs a certain amount of time to accomplish what they want. And if they take too long, one evening they wake up to find the lupine is gone and anyone they assigned to guard him during the day are dead. And a message left behind saying something like "We know who you are now, we are coming." Then have fun for the rest of the chronicle coming up with ways for that lupine pack to thwart and harm the PCs.

I would likely give the one night to accomplish what they need. The next morning, he's gone. If I determined the lupine pack was inexperienced, without a nearby sept to help them, and lacking the most useful powers. I'd give the PCs three nights at most. If the PCs kill the lupine during this time, they may save themselves some short term trouble, but likely gain long term powerful foes.

If you want to be merciful to the PCs, but give them something for their efforts, you could try another approach. The Garou they captured might be completely stoic and unflappable. He's more than willing to talk. (After all, he knows nothing at all that could teach the Mentor nothing about crossing the Shroud or Gauntlet. He could simply say the Mentor is misinformed that lupines can enter the Underworld. Or if it comes back to the Gauntlet, he could honestly say such powers are intrinsic to lupines, but forbidden to the dead.) Instead, he asks the vampires why he's been taken. Then he after telling them that he has nothing that will provide useful, he tells them that if they are smart they will release him now, and he will overlook their role in this. But if they intend to keep him imprisoned, that they will only doom themselves. (No need to explain why.) Let them stew on that for a while. Of course, they could kill him, but that's already within their power. The Blood Bond has power, but it needs multiple nights for a full bond to be formed, and they don't have that (they don't know that, but it's the case).

Leave it up to the PCs if they chicken out and let him go (perhaps even after bringing him to the Mentor - it could be a good scene) and the Garou keeps his word and prevents the PCs from being killed in retaliation. You may even want to use him as a somewhat recurring NPC. But if they hold their ground and keep him there too long, it'll get worse for them progressively based on whatever they do to that lupine. The best way to punish them may not be a fight against lupines - that will either destroy their PCs or make the lupines less a threat than they should be - but for them to learn the lupine pack killed their possible NPC Mentor. That would preserve the lupines as a threat, but not end the game prematurely.

[JustAnotherCaitiff]

Black Fox The exact specifics of the werewolf they are capturing aren't yet set in stone, but I was thinking a Homid Theurge Uktena. Though, Ragabash is an excellent suggestion now that I look at their Gifts. Not only is Open Seal great for this situation, but an Umbral Dodge would be a fantastic, albeit incredibly cruel, way to show the Samedi PC just how blind he is to the wider cosmology of the game.

I am aware that Garou do not generally travel to the Underworld, but you are correct in thinking that the Mentor is not. She thinks they can cross the Shroud into the Underworld or maybe the Astral plane and does not know about the "full" Gauntlet or the wider cosmic reality, beyond what she can learn with Necromancy and Auspex. However, the realization that she is missing the wider picture is valuable enough for her to be "kind" to the PC seeking her favor.

The backstory, for clarity, is thus: the Demon that is helping my PCs is an Earthbound who was sealed under Las Vegas before there was a city built, maybe 200 years ago. The ones who sealed it up were Uktena attached to the local Native tribes. Now, the Demon has managed to corrupt the caern and weaken the bindings enough to take hold of mortals for a brief time. It enlisted the PCs to help it deal with the wolves through the Tremere PC, who has been convinced that he will be able to make use of the leylines after the wolves are dealt with. The PCs have a vague idea of all of this, based on local Tribal lore, but I haven't spelled it out for them, like in a bunch of exposition from the Demon.

I love your idea of keeping the whole encounter on a kind of hidden clock, with the pack showing up and freeing the captive lupine after a day or two. I think that if the coterie goes with drugging the werewolf for long-term observation, I will absolutely use that suggestion. Up to this point, I hadn't considered that the werewolf would likely have allies remaining, even after a Camarilla raid. I know that seems like a glaring oversight, but like I said, I am not a Werewolf player, and that pack-focus is not as common in the VTM games that I have played in/ST'd for. I also love your suggestion of the somewhat cooperative captive. That would make sense for what I have envisioned as the local sept in my game: they are hugely outnumbered by Wyrmspawn such as vampires in a place like Las Vegas and want to keep a low profile while tending to their captive Demon and avoiding losses.

The death of the mentor is not something I considered either, but it would make for both a fantastic scene and great consequences. However, I doubt the PCs will be bold enough to try moving the captive Lupine, let alone taking it to meet the somewhat secret mentor of one of the PCs. In their coterie group text Discord chat, they have discussed digging a hole and lining it with reinforced concrete, while getting some silver-plated shackles made. That kind of setup would make transporting the Lupine, without drugs, rather difficult.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The best way to capture a Lupine would probably be with Dominate 4; Conditioning. They will be your obedient prisoner even as you test them and slice them up. You can even have them defend you when their pack comes to rescue them.


-You can spiritually enhance drugs to increase their effectiveness, which may even allow them to have an effect on lupines with -resist toxin-.
-A kilogram of pure silver is about $800 or 660 euroes , and is about 95 cubic centimetres. Silver is very easy to work with, and you could easily use it to coat a much stronger material like steel 90% silver is considered good enough by WTA. The point being Is that the use of copious silver is not a problem for those who aren't poor (1 dot or less). Pentex aren't busting out the silver upon silver because writers/balance, not because of any real issues.
-I imagine silver doesn't do coninuous damage to werewolves if it stays in the same place. Rather it cauterizes, or magically cauterizes, and doesn't do any more damage to the same spot. Otherwise, if you were shot with a silver bullet from a relatively power pistol-caliber weapon, the bullet didn't pass through, the bullets would be doing levels of damage per turn.

[Thoth]

Alternatively put a bomb collar around the lupines neck. If they shape shift to a larger form, it goes boom, if they shape shift to a smaller form it goes boom. By attaching a few chains to the floor or walls to the collar, the very act of moving to step sideways makes it go boom. Then have a guard with a dead mans switch keeping watch on the off chance the lupine tries to use their gifts to get around the mechanics. Add in a chemical trigger backup so just zapping it with a gift isn't an auto counter, like wise with the external body of the bomb collar is a single welded piece so there is nothing to "unlock".

If your ST is feeling particularly grindhouse, just copy the kill technique used in season one of The Boys. An internal bomb isn't quite as easy to deal with given that many gifts require line of sight, when shape shifting the internal anatomy changes shape but maintains location which means the bomb stays more or less in place. As for stepping sideways, I would say the bomb receiver is outside of transmission range, which means the bomb goes off. Thanks to the wolf being in the umbra, there is no mess to clean up in reality.

If you feel that is too intrusive, just rig a similar dead man switch collar, except when activated a beloved kinfolk gets killed in a different location, rather than harming the wolf directly.

[Damian May]

Alternatively put a bomb collar around the lupines neck. If they shape shift to a larger form, it goes boom, if they shape shift to a smaller form it goes boom. By attaching a few chains to the floor or walls to the collar, the very act of moving to step sideways makes it go boom. Then have a guard with a dead mans switch keeping watch on the off chance the lupine tries to use their gifts to get around the mechanics. Add in a chemical trigger backup so just zapping it with a gift isn't an auto counter, like wise with the external body of the bomb collar is a single welded piece so there is nothing to "unlock".

If your ST is feeling particularly grindhouse, just copy the kill technique used in season one of The Boys. An internal bomb isn't quite as easy to deal with given that many gifts require line of sight, when shape shifting the internal anatomy changes shape but maintains location which means the bomb stays more or less in place. As for stepping sideways, I would say the bomb receiver is outside of transmission range, which means the bomb goes off. Thanks to the wolf being in the umbra, there is no mess to clean up in reality.

If you feel that is too intrusive, just rig a similar dead man switch collar, except when activated a beloved kinfolk gets killed in a different location, rather than harming the wolf directly.

' Stepping Sideways' is just a term you don't actually have to move to do it. The werewolf would simply fade into the penumbra and the bomb would then fall and go off...though...that would be an interesting scenario as the vamps may well assume he died in the explosion ( depending on size) and then he rocks back up in a few days with his pack and cleans house during the day.

[Pleiades]

' Stepping Sideways' is just a term you don't actually have to move to do it. The werewolf would simply fade into the penumbra and the bomb would then fall and go off...

not if it requires a reflective surface, which OP stated would be a requirement

[Thoth]

Damian May Random side question in the newer versions of Werewolf, does stepping side ways allow for carried item discrimination? Can you choose which clothing pieces or carried equipment comes with you. Because if they can't control it precisely either the collar goes with you like the rest of your worn equipment or lupines end up in the umbra naked every time.

And if it is an internal bomb, I don't think there is an option for leaving it behind.

[Damian May]

Damian May Random side question in the newer versions of Werewolf, does stepping side ways allow for carried item discrimination? Can you choose which clothing pieces or carried equipment comes with you. Because if they can't control it precisely either the collar goes with you like the rest of your worn equipment or lupines end up in the umbra naked every time.

And if it is an internal bomb, I don't think there is an option for leaving it behind.

Only spiritually-dedicated items are brought across the Gauntlet. Which is why Rite of Talisman Dedication is so important, as otherwise...like you said lots of naked people.