New Blood Magic Book

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

I hope there is a new book on blood magic for V5. I imagine something similar to Cults of the Blood Gods, but with a focus on Tzimisce kuldon, Bani Haqim sorcerers, Tremere factions, and so on.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I'm not an expert, but Kiasyds have cocktail clubs mix different forms of blood to create new concoctions, using alchemy to catalogue the strange properties of blood.
I'm trying to say that "bloody alchemy" existed in previous editions. So, thin-blood dont have unique 'thing'.

The Cocktail clubs was added near the very end of V20 in a freelancer book, by the very same writer who introduced resonances in V5. It might as well be a V5 addition.

[Dwight]

You're right. I just have a feeling that this new "alchemy" was created based on this (blood-shaker) concept.

Thin blood alchemy dates back to the Time of Thin blood book which had some ridiculous powers

[Alphari]

You're right. I just have a feeling that this new "alchemy" was created based on this (blood-shaker) concept.

[Dwight]

I'm not an expert, but Kiasyds have cocktail clubs mix different forms of blood to create new concoctions, using alchemy to catalogue the strange properties of blood.
I'm trying to say that "bloody alchemy" existed in previous editions. So, thin-blood dont have unique 'thing'.

Bit of a difference between using a cocktail shaker and your body's own internal whatevers.

[Alphari]

there's no reason to deny it to thinbloods nore would there be reason to give thinbloods their own 'thing'

I'm not an expert, but Kiasyds have cocktail clubs mix different forms of blood to create new concoctions, using alchemy to catalogue the strange properties of blood.
I'm trying to say that "bloody alchemy" existed in previous editions. So, thin-blood dont have unique 'thing'.

[Ethryo]

[Lots of rambling]

First, what I did say was that V:5 is not that much unlike in its core book from what it says in the V:rev or V:20. V20 even says that "it encompasses blood magic and other sorcerous arts available to Kindred". So calling it Blood Sorcery is not far fetched. I actually never said that nothing has changed, you probably never read what i wrote in my post or added your own meaning to what I was saying. I was talking about how Thaumaturgy was presented in the three core books in the chapters where disciplines are presented and in those chapters they are not identical, but clearly there are not much difference in how the discipline is presented.

Secondly: I have played Vampire since the 2nd week after first edition was released. And almost played every other week since then in average. I own all the books up until the Gehenna book was published and lost interest when i saw what Requiem offered. V:20 was a major let down for me as it ruined much, in my eyes, what 3rd edition had built up and it ruined a few disciplines as well.

Thirdly. I fully understand that you are mad of what they did with V:5 and how your beloved V:20 was slaughtered as you are very clear in that through the hundred or so posts i have seen that you have written in the year or so that I have been around here. And I have seen that you like to think yourself as an authority of Vampire, which can be seen in how you address me in your last post and how you write towards others. As I said my post was not meant as an insult more as a question so i could get clarity in what you meant.

Now I do not have my books here with me. But I recall that Assamites and Setites both had Blood Sorcery (Setite Sorcery and Assamite Sorcery) as additional powers so the name has stuck around since 3rd edition.

You say "Paradigm, all-important pre-v5, is an afterthought in v5" and that is correct in a way - but you re still wrong.
As I said, reading the core books, which was the premise of my statement, there is no paradigm in either of the versions of the Core Books before V5 (or in V.5 Core Book either). The paradigm was created in the various supplemental books and that followed revised edition, and later in the supplemental books that were added to V:20.

[Ravnos]

There's enough material out there on blood magic already, IMO. I'll probably buy it if they write it, but I'd rather see a new book cover newer ground.

I think the same
But the way they decided to handle most things up to now, they limiting themselves for covering new ground too

Setting speaking they don't want to "bloat".
Cults of the Blood Gods was nice in this because they came up with some interesting cults, but all of them were relatively minor and nothing for a whole book about them. We really got onboard for the clan of death mess, let's admit it

Mechanically speaking they don't want new clans, new disciplines, new bloodlines

Taking in account that they don't want to bloat setting and mechanically, I hardly see a blood magic book on the horizon

[MyWifeIsScary]

Just a question After reading the Core revised and Core V20 I see no difference between "the metaphysical, philosophical wonders of blood magic" from what v5 is saying in their core
...
Not insulting you, I am just at a loss what you mean is the difference between how to discipline is described that would be gutted
....
There is no difference in how it is explained in the various core apart from V5 letting in share powers with Quietus, which to be honest was a rather boring disciplines (like most 1-clan disciplines) in my eyes

My inner, asshole Tremere is screaming at you; so you know very little about the workings of thaumaturgy, and dare to suggest nothing has changed because you don't have the knowledge to recognise the differences? It's like.... what's the most pretentious Tremere example I can use to explain this and make you hate me? Imagine you're an engineer, you're mad at some manufacturer for disobeying your design plan in order to save costs or whatever and they now risk catestrophic failure because they skimped out on key safety features (or, to be more relevant to V5; the device can no longer fulfil the majority of it's range of functions) and some undergraduate student gives a cursory look at the new design and tells you to calm down because they too don't see the problem with the new design and high-spec aeronautics never interested them anyway. /Frothing from the mouth.

Right. I'll get off my high-giraffe and I'll spit "simple" facts.
-Paradigm, all-important pre-v5, is an afterthought in v5. Leaving behind centuries of hermetic teachings for whatever house Carna is doing is apparently fine.
-Thaumaturgy used to be a discipline of the soul; Mortals could use it, it was the product of learning, and you couldn't use it in Frenzy. Quietus, though you may find it an unsatisfactory discipline (Ey, look at that there, in my sig, what could it be, a pay as you want Quietus book? ) was a vampire-discipline through and through, and you definetly could use it during frenzy. The same mechanic occured with necromancy and oblivion; Necromancy is practicable by mortals and was barred during frenzy, whilst Obtenebration was freaky-vampire stuff that could be used during a frenzy. The emphasis is in the name; Pre V5 prefers 'thaumaturgy' (creating miracles) whilst V5 uses... 'Blood sorcery', because someone wanted to emphasize it's a bloody practice used by vampires and... brrrrr. Then we can move back to paradigm.... You get what I'm saying right? There's a big, fundamentally insurmountable philosophical difference between a practice tied to the soul and a practice tied to being a vampire. The former gives us boundless possibilities; can we use thaumaturgy to transcend or cure vampirism? Can we elevate our souls? You can really get into a mindset of what makes a Thaumaturge so supremely arrogant and lofty and what makes the craft so desirable. You make it just about blood and... well... now you're subject to a lot of philosophical limitations.

...and with all these mergers and you realise that since Quietus is now sorcery the whole assamite caste system is now bullshit that might as well be deleted (and probably is being deleted) and... Couldn't they just make Quietus (and Obtenebration) better? We can drag thinblood alchemy in here too; It's not supposed to work like that. anyone can grasp thaumaturgy as a soul-based Discipline and so there's no reason to deny it to thinbloods nore would there be reason to give thinbloods their own 'thing' (which is based on a rather hetrodoxical interpretation of generation might I add. Caine-ness is close to godliness, and thin is weak)

-Already, mechanically, the bridge has been burnt. Maybe in context with the rest of V5 it makes sense to nerf 'blood magic', but the fact remains I can't fly in, cast lure of flames a couple of times, curse you with unfortunate social encounters, and fly out. One can only have five discipline powers and then buy rituals, and even in cases where rituals fulfil the function of paths... they actually don't, or at least a character can't use them at will or in unexpected need but instead must pre-load them with... why not just prepare modern tools instead? Why would you bother learning V5 thaumaturgy when mainstream disciplines are easier to learn and more pow... hmm.. I'll conceed that a few mainstream disciplines are less desirable than before (Note: some of them are still very powerful) . Pre-V5 thaumaturges were challenging and/or exalting God and getting suitably paranoid as a result of their learning, V5 thaumaturges are nerds spending an inordinate amount of time learning party tricks...

Look, you might think the V5 approach is genuinely better. If continuity doesn't bother you, then your subjectivity is your prerogative. But don't say they're the same. I obviously like the old system far-too much for my good health, and in my opinion, I think you'd need to hard-reset the V5 magic system to get a worthy thaumaturgy book out of it, and I feel like the redesign of thaumaturgy in V5 was done without enough care for metaphysics or the impact such changes would have on rollplaying an OG wizard. Perhaps getting rid of the grand baggage makes them more accessible, but in my opinion the secrets of the universe and the methods to exploit the supernatural aren't meant to be so easy and accessible, specially not in "the world of darkness" (A dark age is one in which information is limited)

[Ethryo]

V5 blood magic isn't. It's just another discipline with some rituals attached. All the metaphysical, philosophical wonders of blood magic have been gutted both deliberately and systematically. The rollplaying aspect of magic has been slain, just as the mechanics are gone (and the Tremere blown up and fractured)

/melodrama (but the truth)

Just a question After reading the Core revised and Core V20 I see no difference between "the metaphysical, philosophical wonders of blood magic" from what v5 is saying in their core.

Not insulting you, I am just at a loss what you mean is the difference between how to discipline is described that would be gutted.

If you mean all the lore from the Revised books and v20 books about magic and stuff, they came in additional books after the core. So technically, v5 offers the same level s v.rev and v20 did. V20 has just had some 20 years of extra book to add fluff.

When V:Revised was released and later got 2 new books on bloodmagic that enhanced the experience fluff and lore about it it was really cool. Then V20 comes along and suddenly we lose all that extra fluff and metaphysical philosophy that was described in the two extra books.

It was not until later that V20 got their own fluff books about blood magic that it too got their metaphysical fluff. And enhanced the RP aspect of it.

Now comes V5 and restarts the discipline. Just like V.Rev and V20 did in their core books. Maybe in the future we will get a Blood Sorcery book.

So what's the deal?

There is no difference in how it is explained in the various core apart from V5 letting in share powers with Quietus, which to be honest was a rather boring disciplines (like most 1-clan disciplines) in my eyes

[MyWifeIsScary]

V5 blood magic isn't. It's just another discipline with some rituals attached. All the metaphysical, philosophical wonders of blood magic have been gutted both deliberately and systematically. The rollplaying aspect of magic has been slain, just as the mechanics are gone (and the Tremere blown up and fractured)

/melodrama (but the truth)

[adambeyoncelowe]

I imagine nuances like being a Koldun or Wangateur could be handled with Loresheets rather than with new lists of powers. That wouldn't be the worst way to do it and would fit with how it was done for Paths in Cults of the Blood Gods.

[Trippy]

It wouldn’t;t be my priority right now.

I think they have said there will be a Sabbat book in the pipeline, which would be a good opportunity to consolidate some of the remaining Clans into a published book (could the Ravnos join the new Sabbat), and I would really like to see a Second Inquisition book.

For me, there is a fair amount of blood magic in the game as it stands, and the more interesting development lay in the religious information for in Cults of the Blood Gods than big spell lists.

[Haquim]

The way they have handled new powers until now is to introduce a few with every new book they release so that people (read: players, who outnumber storytellers...) have an incentive to buy the new stuff besides the background info.
That said I support the idea of a dedicated book but I’d like it t include new powers not only for Blood Magic but also for disciplines. The V5 “open system” has a lot of potential and can reduce bloat (no more “each bloodline has its own signature discipline”) but it needs to be effectively implemented giving players and ST different powers to make vampires as diverse as possible. We also need more amalgam and “elder powers”. The V5 system can easily implement them but the publisher needs to start supporting the concept

[Aleph]

Yeah.

I wouldn't like to see magic bloat like in the past, but V5 version of blood magic it's different enough that a - single- good book diving into its particulars could be neat