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  • Set and Osiris thread

    So for a while I've been thinking I should write up a summary on what we know about them with my own comments.

    Set or Sutekh may be the Antediluvian we know the most about, even including the Pretenders like Augustus Giovanni and Tremere. There are accounts of Sets mortal life, by his clan, his mortal relatives (one of which is still alive) and his enemies, and they agree on many points. There has been a lot of discussion on the details of this and things like who was Typhon, and the age of Set, who is generally assumed to be younger than the other true Antediluvians. I thought I would gather the information we had in one place, and add some speculations of my own.

    So:

    According to the Setite Clanbook, 1st ed (1995) Set was born a bit after 5 000 BC, and was the warlord who under his grandfather Ra united the lands of Upper and Lower Egypt into one nations. Set was banished to the desert by Ra, and his brother Osiris made heir. Set returned after Ras death to demand the kingdom be divided and he be made King of Upper Egypt. Osiris denied him this, and banished him to the desert again.
    Interestingly, the Clanbook specifies that Set then traveled north into Assyria where he met his sire, who is referred to as “her”. They traveled to the Second City (meaning it was elsewhere) where Set met his brothers and sisters of the Third Generation. They were unkind to Set on account of him being so much younger than they.
    The Setite Clanbook notes that the Clan curse was present from Sets embrace, and does not attribute it to Caine. It claims Set was away from the city when the Third Generation rose up against their sires. (That is the specific claim) Set swore vengeance on the Third Generation. The Clanbook states that Set returned to Egypt, clashed with the now kindred Osiris, and slew him. Also stating that Osiris was the one who was castrated in that fight. And that Set then ruled Egypt for 2000 years until the Libyan invaded and drove Set into the desert again. Set later returned, and it moves into later history.

    Comments: So obviously, the Setites timeframe here does not work. According to modern archeology, Upper and Lower Egypt was unified around 3 100 BC by Menes. Assyria dates back to the 25th century BC. The Libyan conquest of Egypt was in 1 100 BC. Which is actually 2 000 years after the union of Upper and Lower Egypt. The story of Set demanding Osiris divide Egypt and give him Upper Egypt makes no sense until after 3 100 BC when Egypt consolidates into one kingdom. It does confirm that Set was younger than the other Antediluvians, and by a large enough margin for them to disparage him.

    The Third generation rose up against their sires in the First City, the fall of the Second City according to the Book of Nod was caused by the Fourth Generation, led by Troile, rising against the Third.

    And mostly, everyone else agrees Horus castrated Set.

    There has been speculation that Set started out as a Gangrel of the Fourth Generation. The sire referred to as “her” could be either Ennoia or Zillah. The Weeping Stone is in northern Iraq, and could be within the territory of the Assyrian empire at its largest. We do however, know that Ennoia was active and siring progeny in the area during this time. Ereshkigal in Sumer, and in 2 200 BC she sired Enkidu explicitly to preserve a creation of Sets, the Typhonic beast.

    A lot of this falls into place if we assume that Set was sired around 3 100 BC, and that the Setites are lying to exaggerate their age.


    The Setite Clanbook 2nd ed (2001) does not go into this history much. No dates or much in the way of details. It does contain a few interesting facts:
    It is claimed that the First Citys name was Annu and that it was located where the outskirts of Cairo stand today. The Setites claim that Set became a vampire through the defeat of the entity/god called Apep, the Worm of Darkness and eating its heart. The Tlacique is a Setite bloodline so old its origin is lost. And the 9th level Serpentis power, Shadow of Apep, draws upon the power of the God/creature whose heart Set drank and turns the user into a giant serpent made of Obtenebration-darkness.

    Comments: The Tlacique, the oldest Setite bloodline, does not have Serpentis at all, they have Protean. That’s interesting. “Eating its heart” sounds suspiciously like drinking the hearts blood. And south of Egypt, south of Nubia, south even of their southern neighbor Punt (That was only located in December 2020), Becketts Jyhad Diary mentions Kindred with Obtenebration that does not seem connected to the Lasombra.


    Mummy 1st ed (1992) also tells the tale of Osiris, Set and Horus. It is notable for being not from old copies of older manuscripts, hearsay, or tales passed from sire to childe to childe. It is a first person account told by a Kine who was there.

    It states that it begun 5 000 years ago, and that Osiris banished Set into the western desert upon assuming kingship, after which he sought to unify Egypt. Initially, he did not meet with success. A stranger came to the court of Osiris and stayed for four months before he departed, leaving Osiris as dead. Osiris then rose as a Kindred, and claimed dominion of the river Nile. Osiris was referred to as evil, ruled by his desires, arranged blood sacrifices and fed his guards his blood going so far as to make some of them as himself. He warred in the east for 3 years.
    Then Set returned, superior to Osiris in bloodlust, power and desires. Set tricked Osiris into a sarcophagus and easily destroyed Osiris ghouls and childer. Osiris was rent into hundreds of pieces, Horus was tortured losing an eye, Isis captured. They escaped, Isis along with the son of her and Osiris, Anubis. They raised a coalition of Werebeasts, Osiris remaining servants and childer, and mages, but it was felt that they also needed Osiris back to stand a chance against Set. Although Osiris wife and son were appalled at the thought of having to return a thing they loathed so much. But for vengeance's sake they were willing to exchange one demon for another. Isis spells and blood sacrifices returned Osiris from final death, and his first act was to drink his son Anubis dry while laughing at the screams and tears of his wife as their son died.

    Set sensed Osiris rebirth and fell upon them, destroying the coalition of Kindred, Mages, and Werebeasts who stood against him. But Horus returned from the dead in Ka form and struck Set down castrating him. Set took Isis and Horus lifeless body prisoner, but for reasons known only to him, released his sister Isis and her sons body.
    Only one of Osiris childer survived the battle on the farm. Khetamon a philosopher-magician who detested the vampiric state and managed to remain awake during the following day due to his high humanity. He fled to India and founded the Children of Osiris. His personal history has become confused with his sires and he is generally believed to be Osiris. Currently in Torpor.

    Comments: It must be stressed that this is exceptional, a first-person account. The kine, Mestha, seems to have no reason to lie, and also kept a physical piece of evidence. Sets penis, severed by Horus.

    It presents a very, very different view of Osiris from what we normally get. It also indicates that Set was vastly more powerful than Osiris, although Osiris could have been weakened by his recent resurrection and low on blood. However, even though a neonate in age, Set laughed off the werebeasts and mages along with Isis thunderbolts and fires. He does come across as a level above Osiris.

    This is dated as happening just before 3 000 BC. It is specifically before the joining of Upper and Lower Egypt. The information on Khetamon is surprising and as far as I know, not replicated elsewhere. But given the long association of the Reborn and the Children of Osiris, and Mesthas personal knowledge of Khetamon, Osiris etc, he may be one of the only people who would know this.


    Mummy 2nd edition (1997): Generally a collection of secondhand accounts, it does contain the Isis fragment that may be written by Isis. It also states that Set was banished by Osiris.

    It does offer far more detail on Osiris sire Typhon. He is said to have been breathtakingly beautiful, but cold in manner and body. The only emotion he displayed was a cruel humor. Frozen-eyed he was called. He returned on the full moon for four months to speak with Osiris to warn him of a tide of darkness and war. After the fourth month he left Osiris like himself. Isis, Osiris wife describes him as cold, distant, stern, rigid, and unyielding. He has also become strong as many bulls, possessing irresistible speech and can make the river Nile flood.

    It also mentions Thoth, who also came by night only, would not see Osiris but taught Isis and Nephthys great magics, including the Great Rite, the Spell of Life.

    Sets return proceeds much as it has in the other accounts, but we get some more information of the coalition against him. It includes Sebek/Sobek the chief of the Mokole, and the Bubastis werecats, and Wadiet, a childe of Set. It gives us the more standard version of Osiris resurrection, and, states that Anubis was the ferryman who took Osiris to and from the lands of the dead, imparting much wisdom to him including how to fight Setite corruption.

    It also notes that the Reborn believe the Second City was within the borders of todays Egypt and that Horus knows its location.

    Comments: This account erases Anubis the son of Osiris and Isis entirely. It also strips the credit for developing spell of Life from Isis and Nephthys and credits the ferryman that took Osiris to the lands of the Dead. Which probably means Charon. (Who is also credited with Osiris enlightenment on how to defeat the Beast. Could this be Golconda? Saulot knew how to return the dead too) It introduces Thoth who sounds like a powerful mage except that he is only seen at night.

    The Reborn assume the Mokole chief Sebek/Sobek died, whereas we know Set embraced him and that he has been kept in a temple since the Antediluvian Set was a neonate.

    A near-Antediluvian age Mokole Abomination of the Fourth Generation.

    The comment on the location of the second city was later confirmed, it was indeed in Egypt. The Setites thought this about the First City as well, but they were confusing the First and Second city histories at the same time, so it is quite possible they were confusing the two. We have more information on Typhon, and Osiris first disciplines. It is interesting that Typhon and Set never met, at least not in Egypt. Yet we have Typhon Set, the Path of Typhon and the Typhonic Beast. Interesting.

    It is worth remembering in relation to the battles of Set, Osiris and their childer that the main difference in power between the two and their children is generation. Osiris was embraced three years earlier and it was not that long before that he had banished Set. Their childer are virtually the same age as them.


    Mummy the Resurrection: (2001): Repeats that the Second City most likely is located in Egypt. It follows the story in Mummy second edition except setting it hundreds of years before the first dynasty of Egypt.


    Cairo by Night (2001): States that the Second City was in Egypt. Has some interesting bits about its undead inhabitants although not germane to this. Calls Set “misanthropic”. It also says that he was by far the last Antediluvian to arrive, and that he left shortly after. He was not present when the chaos that led to its fall erupted. In fact he left for Assyria just before that. It also mentions that one of the Antediluvians met Final Death in the fall of the Second City.

    Interestingly, it says all but one of the surviving Antediluvians felt compelled to leave Africa after the citys fall.

    It speculates that the increasing desertification of Egypt was due to the presence of so many Antediluvians over so much time, draining the life from the land. The clash of Osiris and Horus is said to begin a few centuries before 3 100. Also, it restates that Osiris gained the Spell of Life, the secrets of Bardo etc from Anubis the ferryman. Finally, we learn that the disciplines Osiris first developed was the vigor of a dozen bulls, irresistible power in his speech and the movement of the desert winds. Potence, Presence and Celerity.


    The White Wolf Wiki: It lists three childer of Set with embrace dates far earlier than 3100 BC. Wadjet, Nephtys, Nakthorheb are listed as embraced in the 6th millennium BC. However the wiki also lists Troile as embraced in 3 000 BC, so I felt I needed to check the references. As far as I could find, none of them actually have embrace dates recorded.


    Final notes and comments: I give the most weight to Mestahs account here. It is first person, he has no reason to lie, and he has physical evidence. Further, even among vampires the Setites have a less than average reputation for truthfulness.

    It seems clear that Set is much younger than the other Antediluvians. The Setites account is the only one trying to stretch his existence back 7 000 years. They are further confusing the First and Second Cities in their account. The 2nd ed Clanbook also mention that the prolific records of the Setites suddenly vanish and there is nothing to be found when you get to Egypt’s Old Kingdom and earlier.

    They are hiding something.

    Pretty much everything (including archeology) not from the Setites agree that Set and Osiris was born a bit before 3 100 BC, perhaps two-three centuries or so. Either it is just after the unification, or Horus finds the land unified after his first refresh of his undying status. That is much younger than the other Antediluvians and in fact younger than many extant members of the Fourth Generation.

    Now this is interesting: Set is too young to ever have been in the First City. So he was embraced after the Third Generation slew the Second. Hence, he cannot have been embraced into the Third Generation. He must have diablerized his way in there.

    Now Set was a famed warrior banished into a very harsh wilderness, surviving there. He was embraced by a female, got animal features with a snake theme, and his oldest bloodline does not have his patented Serpentis Discipline. They have Protean. That says Gangrel. Additionally, we know that Ennoia was active and siring in that area at the time. And some centuries later she is still there, explicitly dealing with shit Set left behind.

    I would speculate that the Antediluvian Set diablerized to get to the Third Generation was called Apep, and had Obtenebration as a Clan discipline. One might wonder what [Lasombra] thought about being the only master of darkness left. Any diablerie of Sets is likely to predate his return to Egypt and Osiris. He seemed to be far more powerful than rival of a similar age. So it likely happened in the Second City, with Set lighting out just as all hell broke loose. He did not get along with his elders there, it is clear. Alternately, it could have happened before he got there, and he arrived as a member of the Third Generation.

    An alternate explanation, one Antediluvian is said to have perished in the fall of the second city. Brujah. Troiles diablerie of her sire was the act that triggered the fall of the Second City, according to the Book of Nod.

    Now it seems extremely likely that Typhon was Brujah. The description of Typhon as “possessing no emotion except cruel humor”, cold, frozen-eyed, and Osiris similar loss of emotion and becoming cold and distant… that is the True Brujah Clan curse if ever I heard it. Add to it Osiris strength of bulls, irresistible speech and speed of winds… potence, presence and celerity. Typhon was Brujah, at a high level of probability.

    Additionally, the timespan 5 000 years show up quite a bit with the Trujah. “They have been waiting for their vengeance for 5 000 years” etc. This explains why Typhon never came back after embracing Osiris but left him to go Caitiff. He was destroyed very shortly afterwards in the fall of the Second City. And if Troile was on Humanity, I can see why she would have felt Typhon needed to go, he was clearly a right bastard.

    As an alternative to the Apep theory, Set probably felt Typhons embrace of Osiris was a hostile act towards him, and Typhon probably did stop in the Second City at times. If Set diablerized Typhon, and we know what happens when someone diablerizes a much more powerful kindred, it would explain why he suddenly started being called Typhon Set, made a Typhonic beast and called his moral system the Path of Typhon. Maybe Troile was framed, and he lit out. Very Setite. That is quite speculative, admittedly.

    The Second city was in Egypt. I was surprised to find how many places that cropped up when reading through this.

    On whether the Spell of Life came from Isis or Thoth and Anubis by way of Osiris, information seem to be about 50/50. I personally prefer Isis to have a bit more accomplishment and agency. Also I don’t see why the ferryman, who was probably Charon, should have far deeper insight in the vampiric condition than vampires.

    Khetamon or Osiris as the founder of the Children of Osiris… I prefer the Khetamon account. It is much more in line with the WoD I think. The development of the Mummy line seems to have been moving in the opposite direction though.

    Finally, I have no idea about the Assyria references, except as references to the area that would later become Assyria. There is no way to make the timeline work, Assyria is at best 500 years in the future when it is mentioned.

    What have I missed here?

  • #2
    According to the Mage timeline, there was a call sent out to all mages to set up two organizations in Egypt, one that used device driven abilities and one that did not. There are hints that a version of the Spell of Life came from here, possibly untied to the South American version. Also, as Bardo is a Tibetan term, I find it difficult to find that an Egyptian wraith would use it, although the speech of the dead is a runaround. Charon is definitely later in the timeline, coming about just before the founding of the Roman Empire into a world power. Ends of Empire for Wraith suggests a team-up between the Ferrymen and the Mummies with Anubis as the go between in destroying Enoch/ the Black Hand. The animosity between the two is not made clear, not even in the 20th Anniversary book. One final note, the True Brujah were forming some sort of alliance with the Setties, as mentioned in Nights of Prophecy. (I think. it has been so long that I've read/had some of these books that I can't pinpoint the place.). I'm not sure where this could be leading, but a separate Children of Osiris source book is needed to clear some of these inconsistencies. Or add to them.


    THWarted

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Toby Weingarten View Post
      One final note, the True Brujah were forming some sort of alliance with the Setties, as mentioned in Nights of Prophecy. (I think. it has been so long that I've read/had some of these books that I can't pinpoint the place.)
      There's some info about their alliance in the Vampire Storytellers Guide (Revised Ed.) under the True Brujah entry.

      Comment


      • #4
        I would be wary of inventing new vampires to take on the role of Apep/Apophis. Second Edition sources make it fairly obvious that Set himself is but a servant of some even greater being. For example, The Vampire Players Guide (1993) suggests in the Path of Typhon writeup that the path may have been developed by Set himself, and the text then asks: "What could inspire an Antediluvian, himself a virtual god, to formulate a code of belief and worship?" Mummy Second Edition (1997) finally makes it explicit that Set is a servant of Apophis, and Apophis is none other than the Wyrm. Instead of tying the origins of Set to, say, the Gangrel, I would suggest that the snake theme of the Followers of Set is nothing but a manifestation of the entire clan's Wyrm corruption.

        Your otherwise comprehensive account leaves out one tidbit from early Setite writeups that I've always found more interesting than what the clan later became: The Followers of Set are all sired only after about 900 BCE. The first Setite writeup in the Players Guide (1991) states that when Set was banished from Egypt, all his old followers were slaughtered. The First Edition Mummy (1992) repeats this point, saying that the real Followers of Set were created only after Set was driven out for the second and last time, here around 950 BCE (page 64). What I like about this is that this portrayal of Set in the World of Darkness roughly coincides with the demonization of Set in the real world. Just as the formerly heroic deity fell into disrepute in real-world religion, so did (in my view) the Set of the World of Darkness fall to the Wyrm around this period. If any Follower of Set has a writeup that makes them seem older than about 950 BCE, there's a good chance that their biography is mere fabrication.

        Comment


        • #5
          Trying to reconcile actual history, real myth (which changed according to time and place in Egypt), popular culture about Egypt (including mummy movies and books), and the game's lore is a quest in futility. Especially once you accept the game's Set is less about the actual Egyptian god, and more about the fictional Set (actually the "Great Serpent" worshipped in Stygia) that Robert E Howard wrote about in his Kull and Conan stories (and further developed by Marvel Comics). There's going to be huge contradictions. What you state is actually true is going to contradict something, so it is all about what makes sense for you at your game table. And it'll be different from what someone else does.

          You should also remember that none of these books were written with an objective point of view. They are spoken as an IC perspective. You have people who could be unreliable, misinformed, and willing to speak anachronistically. The mention of "Assyria" doesn't need to mean historical Assyria, but simply that section of northern Mesopotamia near the Tigris at any point which was part of the Assyrian Empire.

          I remember a website twenty years ago by some Frenchman who was a student of real Egyptian history and myth. He might even have had academic credentials. He was appalled at the game's treatment of Set, and developed a whole tortured explanation of how such a thing was possible while doing best to keep things in canon while reconciling with real myth and history. It was incredibly impressive, but I always felt it was a lot of work to get back to the same point.

          Below is what I use in my chronicles.
          • There was an antediluvian world before this one, and the founders of each vampire clan came from there.
          • One of those was the founder of the Followers of Set. He was a priest of the Wyrm in one of its guises back then. We'll call him "Typhon" for convenience since the Setite Path of Enlightenment is called the Path of Typhon. Obviously that is not his (or her) real name.
          • After Typhon rose in the postdiluvian world, he eventually went to Egypt.
          • Typhon sired childer, one of whom was Set. He had other childer, but they and their lines were mostly destroyed leaving Set and his childer as dominant.
          • Typhon disappeared thereafter. As a result, Set (the 4th gen) became frequently confused for the Antediluvian, something he was prone to encourage as a better means to ensure his control over the clan. The worship of the Wyrm by Set also caused a lot of identification with Set, Typhon, and the Wyrm (especially in its guise of Apep) itself to be one and the same.
          • This explains why vampire Setites have a very inconsistent story with Egyptian myth and history in general, and the tales other vampires tell of their origins.
          I put the actual secret history of vampire Set, vampire Osiris, mage Isis, mummy Horus, and the various Changing Breeds (Silent Strider as Anubis, Mokole as Sobek, etc.) was pre-dynastic. It happened long before the historical unification of Upper and Lower Egypt by Narmer/Menes. As a result, this is more likely around 5000 BC than 3000 BC, but I don't assign any specific dates. By the time of an united Nile Valley, the stories told about what happened was now remembered as myths and legends that became the Egyptian religion, and this was subsequently supported by various supernatural creatures who saw it in their interest to perpetuate that.

          I personally made Osiris's sire Cappadocious because Osiris is the Greek adaptation of the Egyptian name which is probably more like Ashur. And Cappadocious is associated with that name. Cappadocious was also obsessed with death (like the Egyptians in general), and Osiris would later become a wraith who ruled one of the Far Shores (and leader of the sect of the Children of Osiris - which in my games is a sect, not a bloodline). None of this is actually logical in the sense that one caused the other, but I like that all of this does have some thematic ties. So it implies there was some kind of struggle between Typhon and Cappadocious for control of the Nile. If Cappadocious is Ashur, then it makes sense he was the tutelary diety of the city state of Assur which eventually founded the Assyrian Empire. If Typhon and/or Set visited there, it's possible he did so in order to settle the matter of whether the Nile belonged to the brood of Set, Cappadocious, to work out some arrangement, or in an attempt to kill him.


          Having said that, I think it's great the OP created his own solution to the problem. I think it creates a lot unique things running a chronicle where it's part of the secret lore of the setting. And it would be very cool to somehow learn this in game as a PC. I like it when people take the clues given in the game (especially its early period) and create their own unique chronicle lore. It adds the mystery and excitement found in the early game, and which later editions killed by adding more and more details.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
            Your otherwise comprehensive account leaves out one tidbit from early Setite writeups that I've always found more interesting than what the clan later became: The Followers of Set are all sired only after about 900 BCE. The first Setite writeup in the Players Guide (1991) states that when Set was banished from Egypt, all his old followers were slaughtered. The First Edition Mummy (1992) repeats this point, saying that the real Followers of Set were created only after Set was driven out for the second and last time, here around 950 BCE (page 64). What I like about this is that this portrayal of Set in the World of Darkness roughly coincides with the demonization of Set in the real world. Just as the formerly heroic deity fell into disrepute in real-world religion, so did (in my view) the Set of the World of Darkness fall to the Wyrm around this period. If any Follower of Set has a writeup that makes them seem older than about 950 BCE, there's a good chance that their biography is mere fabrication.
            This is a great call out. And would be the basis of a great chronicle secret since it is so overlooked. I have those books, and I don't think I ever made that connection.

            Comment


            • #7
              It's entirely possible that both Set castrated Osiris and Horus castrated Set. Castration and improper cock use are a staple of early myths. I mean, the myths say Set tried to make a joke of horus by jacking off into lettuce and getting him to eat it (this backfired. Actually it might've been the other way round. Point is that ancient salad dressing was unconventional). Also mortal myths are mostly oral and everyone uses a lot of poetic liscence. Think about all the movies you've watched that differ radically from the real story, now imagine that instead of having five directors make movies from the historical accounts of William walace and getting things like Braveheart, you've got one director making Braveheart, another making a film based on Braveheart, and another making a film based on the film based on braveheart, and after a few thousand years you'd be lucky if the main character is still called William and nobody's casting spells.

              Another problem assumption the OP makes is that Set must've diablerized his way to 3rd gen being too young. It's more likely that a hidden second gen, or a third gen who promoted to second gen, embraced set.

              Using "Typhon" bothers me. The egyptians predate the Greeks. Also Typhon's just a shit name.


              Apep/Apophis are often seen as interchangable, but they might've been separate entities or connotated different things. The Wyrm/A vampire.

              Overall, an insightful thread. I don't agree with it, but it's an interesting point of view. I honestly like my Settites so thick with bullshit that nobody actually knows for sure what happened. I do like the -followers of Set appeared after the vilification of Set in the 900's- response later on, but I really dig the gnostic -fuck-the-gods thing the Settites have going on and so I favour an older cult.


              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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              • #8
                Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                I would be wary of inventing new vampires to take on the role of Apep/Apophis. Second Edition sources make it fairly obvious that Set himself is but a servant of some even greater being. For example, The Vampire Players Guide (1993) suggests in the Path of Typhon writeup that the path may have been developed by Set himself, and the text then asks: "What could inspire an Antediluvian, himself a virtual god, to formulate a code of belief and worship?" Mummy Second Edition (1997) finally makes it explicit that Set is a servant of Apophis, and Apophis is none other than the Wyrm. Instead of tying the origins of Set to, say, the Gangrel, I would suggest that the snake theme of the Followers of Set is nothing but a manifestation of the entire clan's Wyrm corruption.
                Some books in WOD reference Apophis and the Wyrm as different entities. Midnight Circus being the most notable, as one of the major antagonists has made deals with both of these entities and is playing them against each other to maintain their freedom.

                I'd just log apophis as its own entity, like the Grand Maw in wraith is its own entity from the Wyrm. Apophis is kinda weird though, it's like it's used as a stand in for both the wyrm and oblivion.
                Last edited by Prometheas; 02-12-2021, 06:32 PM.

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                • #9
                  Really now... Everyone knows Apophis is a parasitic space alien with delusions of grandeur.

                  Seriously though, this is definitely an interesting thread.

                  As far as Typhon goes, that’s a Hellanistic bit of syncretism because the Greeks associated Seth/Sutehk with Typhon (and sky god Horus/Heru with Zeus). One interesting thought is that Typhon was a pseudonym for the Antediluvian Set diablerized to achieve his 3rd Gen status.

                  This would also explain the massive power advantage Set had over Osiris; he encountered and diablerized the same Antediluvian who’d Embraced Osiris into the 4th Generation before his return. He wasn’t just a young vampire of the 3rd Generation (i.e. all the potential, little of the actual power) with a few years on Osiris, he was one who’d gotten there by consuming the soul of a legitimate millennia-old Antedeluvian (basically what Tremere did only fully successful).

                  It might even be the reason Set decided to return from his exile; in diablerizing Typhon he got some of its memories including what Osiris had become and the certainty that having consumed Osiris’ maker he could easily overcome his brother.

                  This could also explain Noddist accounts of Set having been in the First City (ex. in the Book of Nod); they were confusing the Antediluvian [Typhon] (who was in the First City) with Set who later diablerized them.

                  It might also explain some of the matters about Apophis; because the monstrous imagry of Typhon could easily be linked to the monstrous serpent imagery of Apophis and Set being empowered with the might of Apophis might be an oblique reference to his diablerie of [Typhon].

                  Perhaps Set didn’t even develop/acquire Serpentis until after the diablerie of [Typhon] while his oldest bloodline was begun BEFORE he diablerized [Typhon] (and thus didn’t have Serpentis yet).

                  There’s still some generational weirdness, but some of that might be solved if we presume at least one of the third generation diablerized one of the second and so was, effectively, 2nd Generation (though the advantage of that is pretty marginal since that was before generational weakening occurred... by default the 3rd and 2nd Gen are equal in power and Caine is only stronger still because of age and God’s mark upon him making him essentially unkillable).

                  One solution is that Troile never diablerized [Brujah] at all; they were 3rd Gen because [Brujah] diablerized one of the 2nd before the Flood. Instead it was Set who diablerized [Brujah/Typhon], but because he was only 4th Gen to begin with, that act only brought him up to 3rd Gen.

                  Perhaps Set even framed Troile for the act even as he was getting out of Dodge (possibly another factor in his decision to return from exile) and Troile just ran with it because it gave them control of the rest of Clan Brujah.

                  Another possibility is, given how stupid powerful Enoia has been depicted as being, including some oblique references to people even saying she was directly sired by Caine, is that SHE diablerized and became 2nd Gen pre-Flood so, when she embraced Set c. 3100 BC, he started out 3rd Gen naturally and later picked up the added moniker of Typhon because he decided to run a long con on the Greek mortals after Troile ate [Brujah/Typhon] and basically stole their identity for his own purposes.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    I do like the -followers of Set appeared after the vilification of Set in the 900's- response later on, but I really dig the gnostic -fuck-the-gods thing the Settites have going on and so I favour an older cult.
                    Gnostic Setites and the clan's creation around 900 BCE don't have to be mutually exclusive. Gnosticism itself originated "only" in the 1st century CE, about a thousand years later. You could even make Gnosticism a product of Setite influence on the early Christian and Jewish sects, if you wanted to go down that road.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                      Gnostic Setites and the clan's creation around 900 BCE don't have to be mutually exclusive. Gnosticism itself originated "only" in the 1st century CE, about a thousand years later. You could even make Gnosticism a product of Setite influence on the early Christian and Jewish sects, if you wanted to go down that road.
                      Worth noting is that writings found in the Nag Hammadi library dated to Egypt’s Old Kingdom period (c. 2600-2100 BC) contain elements of proto-gnosticism. Set could have been evolving his philosophies for thousands of years before Christian heretics adopted variants of them.

                      I say run with it.

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                      • #12
                        I thought the First City was destroyed by the Great Flood unleashed by God/El/YHVH and the Second City was destroyed when the Third Generation destroyed the Second. My timeline puts Set’s Embrace at around 4000 BCE (long after the Flood) and the destruction of the Second City at around 3500 BCE.


                        “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Prometheas
                          Grand Maw in wraith
                          Grand Maw is an Orpheus thing, not Wraith.


                          Jade Kingdom Warrior

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                            Grand Maw is an Orpheus thing, not Wraith.
                            I'd consider that one a To-may-to = To-mah-to situation. Orpheus was Wraith post "ends of empire", but W20 has the flatliners exploring a wraith world that survived the 6th maelstrom. So Orpheus has been subsumed into Wraith.

                            Besides, "orpheus" isn't as punchy a name as "wraith".

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Prometheas View Post

                              I'd consider that one a To-may-to = To-mah-to situation. Orpheus was Wraith post "ends of empire", but W20 has the flatliners exploring a wraith world that survived the 6th maelstrom. So Orpheus has been subsumed into Wraith.

                              Besides, "orpheus" isn't as punchy a name as "wraith".

                              Wraith and Orpheus are two very different things. I'd only agree with you if Orpheus actually was a continuation of Wraith, but it went down its own entire route and isn't recognizable to Wraith. None of it made sense at all. Wraith ended with Ends of an Empire.


                              Jade Kingdom Warrior

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