Set and Osiris thread

[Ravnos]

If you think about it, the opposite the true
Every vampire is sensitive to the sunlight, while the Followers of Set are EXTREMLY sensitive... because Ra cursed their Progenitor, and they are closest to his holiness
While the lesser clans are the descendants of Set's diciples, who recived additonal curses from the enraged Strom God for their betrayal
More so, Sepentis have a high level of power that invokes Ra and reminds the senile Sun God, Set was his Champion for eons and the settite in question becomes immune to sunlight for a bit...
Make sense actually, they are right

Free interpretation of doubtful truths can lead to different truths. This should be especially true for a game like vampire, whose world is... well, a serpents nest

I think it's our human mind that feels the urge for a "canon" to set it in stone

As for the Set/Thulsa Doom thing, one of my personal possible headcanons is that Set started good, or at least not so bad a fella, and then he lost a lot of humanity. Like, really a lot of humanity.
Maybe Set fell further into eldritch evil type due to eating whatever Apophis was.
So depending on the setite lineage you're talking to, myths and religions on Set can be wildly different

[Reasor]

That the myths reflect the era and faction that first told them mirrors the real historical vilification of Set after several dynasties of serving as the favorite god of the pharoahs.

[Shadeprowler]

Well some older material claims in 13th Millennium BC the Followers of Set had power in Africa... more than enough time to have a Conan vs. Thulsa Doom showdown, and make Thulsa Doom actually "exist" and be a Theophidian Follower of Set or Typhonists,
Vlad Tepes manipulated Bram Stoker into publishing a novel based on his own unlife, breaking the Masquerade more flagrantly than any other vampire to date.
A Settite "inspired" Robert E. Howard
Or that pseudo-historical "Hyborian Age", set after the destruction of Atlantis and before the rise of any known ancient civilization really existed
Would been a smart move actually to spread the seprent-faith

[CTPhipps]

To be fair, it was THOTH AMON not Thulsa Doom who worshiped Set in the original Howard.

You are permitted to throw things at me.

[glamourweaver]

According to the Mage timeline, there was a call sent out to all mages to set up two organizations in Egypt, one that used device driven abilities and one that did not. There are hints that a version of the Spell of Life came from here, possibly untied to the South American version. Also, as Bardo is a Tibetan term, I find it difficult to find that an Egyptian wraith would use it, although the speech of the dead is a runaround. Charon is definitely later in the timeline, coming about just before the founding of the Roman Empire into a world power. Ends of Empire for Wraith suggests a team-up between the Ferrymen and the Mummies with Anubis as the go between in destroying Enoch/ the Black Hand. The animosity between the two is not made clear, not even in the 20th Anniversary book. One final note, the True Brujah were forming some sort of alliance with the Setties, as mentioned in Nights of Prophecy. (I think. it has been so long that I've read/had some of these books that I can't pinpoint the place.). I'm not sure where this could be leading, but a separate Children of Osiris source book is needed to clear some of these inconsistencies. Or add to them.

i believe that’s during the reign of Hatshepsut though - so, it would mean no Shemsu-Heru are older than the New Kingdom if you’re right.

[Ravnos]

Another possible headcanon of mine might be that Set was an antediluvian that was much more "nuanced" (in the axis good/evil I mean) than most give him credit for, from the very beginning.
And that it was also a figure akin to the teachings of the V5 Setites.
But in the end he "sacrificed" himself in 33 AD, by either devouring or being devoured or absorbing "Apophis". And in that way he freed the world from the darkness of the "original sin". From then on, the eldritch cults of Set spread.
Of course it is contradicting with a lot of canon stuff, some retconned and some not, but I think it might be a fun take.

[CTPhipps]

Another possible headcanon of mine might be that Set was an antediluvian that was much more "nuanced" (in the axis good/evil I mean) than most give him credit for, from the very beginning.
And that it was also a figure akin to the teachings of the V5 Setites.
But in the end he "sacrificed" himself in 33 AD, by either devouring or being devoured or absorbing "Apophis". And in that way he freed the world from the darkness of the "original sin". From then on, the eldritch cults of Set spread.
Of course it is contradicting with a lot of canon stuff, some retconned and some not, but I think it might be a fun take.

Another possibility would be the Cult of Apep has secretly infiltrated the Church of Set and all but perverted its teachings to evil.

And who is the group behind the Cult of Apep?

THE BAALI!

[Ravnos]

Another possibility would be the Cult of Apep has secretly infiltrated the Church of Set and all but perverted its teachings to evil.

And who is the group behind the Cult of Apep?

THE BAALI!

I like this connection.
But I dig the idea that Set himself got corrupted due to best intentions gone wrong (or even messianic kind of sacrifice), so that it's not just perverted teachings but also the teacher was perverted along the way
But also one idea doesn't negate the other

[Reasor]

"The Baali did it" was good enough to be a twist on Carthage and the Brujah!

[CTPhipps]

"The Baali did it" was good enough to be a twist on Carthage and the Brujah!

I admit I feel they're an unneeded complication.

The Roman Ventrue destroyed Carthage because they were feuding empires.

[AnubisXy]

I admit I feel they're an unneeded complication.

The Roman Ventrue destroyed Carthage because they were feuding empires.

They probably did that because Ba'al Hammon was the god of Carthage and there were stories about the people of Carthage engaging in ritual sacrifice including children. With something like that I imagine that including the Baali in Carthage was just too tempting to avoid on the part of the writers.

[Reasor]

I think that's definitely the case. I kind of mind how it lets the Brujah off the hook for their own fall from grace, though. It's more Vampire, if that makes sense, if they descended into depravity on their own and then just made sure not to tell their childer that part.

[CTPhipps]

They probably did that because Ba'al Hammon was the god of Carthage and there were stories about the people of Carthage engaging in ritual sacrifice including children. With something like that I imagine that including the Baali in Carthage was just too tempting to avoid on the part of the writers.

Well, they absolutely did.

Defenders of Carthage say that was Roman slander but the Greeks and Jews also had the same stories. There's also physical evidence.

It's just that historians don't want that to be true because it seems too gruesome for a culture they admired.

This despite the fact Romans were no stranger to infanticide themselves.

[AnubisXy]

For sure, though whether those stories are historically factual or not is sort of besides the point. VtM isn't a game that obsessed with historical accuracy. So the stories of Carthage worshipping Ba'al and having massive, gruesome sacrifices of children (historically accurate or not) is perfect for the mood, tone and story that VtM wants to tell. In fact, if you look at the absolute worst Roman propaganda and say, "This is true in the World of Darkness!" it works even better for the story of how terrible and dangerous the Baali are and how far the Brujah ended up falling.

Really, even if the writers hadn't officially included the Baali as having some sway over Carthage I imagine that would have been one of those popular fanon theories because Ba'al/Baali is just too obvious and juicy of a point to pass up.

[CTPhipps]

For sure, though whether those stories are historically factual or not is sort of besides the point. VtM isn't a game that obsessed with historical accuracy. So the stories of Carthage worshipping Ba'al and having massive, gruesome sacrifices of children (historically accurate or not) is perfect for the mood, tone and story that VtM wants to tell. In fact, if you look at the absolute worst Roman propaganda and say, "This is true in the World of Darkness!" it works even better for the story of how terrible and dangerous the Baali are and how far the Brujah ended up falling.

Really, even if the writers hadn't officially included the Baali as having some sway over Carthage I imagine that would have been one of those popular fanon theories because Ba'al/Baali is just too obvious and juicy of a point to pass up.

Actually, I feel it undermines the Ventrue as it makes them act like they'd be morally offended when the story was fine that the Romans were jealous of Carthage's power and humiliated by past defeats so they destroyed them.

They don't need a bigger motivation than they had.

The Baali being involved just makes the Brujah's paradise look like a lie.