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  • Trollroot
    started a topic Set and Osiris thread

    Set and Osiris thread

    So for a while I've been thinking I should write up a summary on what we know about them with my own comments.

    Set or Sutekh may be the Antediluvian we know the most about, even including the Pretenders like Augustus Giovanni and Tremere. There are accounts of Sets mortal life, by his clan, his mortal relatives (one of which is still alive) and his enemies, and they agree on many points. There has been a lot of discussion on the details of this and things like who was Typhon, and the age of Set, who is generally assumed to be younger than the other true Antediluvians. I thought I would gather the information we had in one place, and add some speculations of my own.

    So:

    According to the Setite Clanbook, 1st ed (1995) Set was born a bit after 5 000 BC, and was the warlord who under his grandfather Ra united the lands of Upper and Lower Egypt into one nations. Set was banished to the desert by Ra, and his brother Osiris made heir. Set returned after Ras death to demand the kingdom be divided and he be made King of Upper Egypt. Osiris denied him this, and banished him to the desert again.
    Interestingly, the Clanbook specifies that Set then traveled north into Assyria where he met his sire, who is referred to as “her”. They traveled to the Second City (meaning it was elsewhere) where Set met his brothers and sisters of the Third Generation. They were unkind to Set on account of him being so much younger than they.
    The Setite Clanbook notes that the Clan curse was present from Sets embrace, and does not attribute it to Caine. It claims Set was away from the city when the Third Generation rose up against their sires. (That is the specific claim) Set swore vengeance on the Third Generation. The Clanbook states that Set returned to Egypt, clashed with the now kindred Osiris, and slew him. Also stating that Osiris was the one who was castrated in that fight. And that Set then ruled Egypt for 2000 years until the Libyan invaded and drove Set into the desert again. Set later returned, and it moves into later history.

    Comments: So obviously, the Setites timeframe here does not work. According to modern archeology, Upper and Lower Egypt was unified around 3 100 BC by Menes. Assyria dates back to the 25th century BC. The Libyan conquest of Egypt was in 1 100 BC. Which is actually 2 000 years after the union of Upper and Lower Egypt. The story of Set demanding Osiris divide Egypt and give him Upper Egypt makes no sense until after 3 100 BC when Egypt consolidates into one kingdom. It does confirm that Set was younger than the other Antediluvians, and by a large enough margin for them to disparage him.

    The Third generation rose up against their sires in the First City, the fall of the Second City according to the Book of Nod was caused by the Fourth Generation, led by Troile, rising against the Third.

    And mostly, everyone else agrees Horus castrated Set.

    There has been speculation that Set started out as a Gangrel of the Fourth Generation. The sire referred to as “her” could be either Ennoia or Zillah. The Weeping Stone is in northern Iraq, and could be within the territory of the Assyrian empire at its largest. We do however, know that Ennoia was active and siring progeny in the area during this time. Ereshkigal in Sumer, and in 2 200 BC she sired Enkidu explicitly to preserve a creation of Sets, the Typhonic beast.

    A lot of this falls into place if we assume that Set was sired around 3 100 BC, and that the Setites are lying to exaggerate their age.


    The Setite Clanbook 2nd ed (2001) does not go into this history much. No dates or much in the way of details. It does contain a few interesting facts:
    It is claimed that the First Citys name was Annu and that it was located where the outskirts of Cairo stand today. The Setites claim that Set became a vampire through the defeat of the entity/god called Apep, the Worm of Darkness and eating its heart. The Tlacique is a Setite bloodline so old its origin is lost. And the 9th level Serpentis power, Shadow of Apep, draws upon the power of the God/creature whose heart Set drank and turns the user into a giant serpent made of Obtenebration-darkness.

    Comments: The Tlacique, the oldest Setite bloodline, does not have Serpentis at all, they have Protean. That’s interesting. “Eating its heart” sounds suspiciously like drinking the hearts blood. And south of Egypt, south of Nubia, south even of their southern neighbor Punt (That was only located in December 2020), Becketts Jyhad Diary mentions Kindred with Obtenebration that does not seem connected to the Lasombra.


    Mummy 1st ed (1992) also tells the tale of Osiris, Set and Horus. It is notable for being not from old copies of older manuscripts, hearsay, or tales passed from sire to childe to childe. It is a first person account told by a Kine who was there.

    It states that it begun 5 000 years ago, and that Osiris banished Set into the western desert upon assuming kingship, after which he sought to unify Egypt. Initially, he did not meet with success. A stranger came to the court of Osiris and stayed for four months before he departed, leaving Osiris as dead. Osiris then rose as a Kindred, and claimed dominion of the river Nile. Osiris was referred to as evil, ruled by his desires, arranged blood sacrifices and fed his guards his blood going so far as to make some of them as himself. He warred in the east for 3 years.
    Then Set returned, superior to Osiris in bloodlust, power and desires. Set tricked Osiris into a sarcophagus and easily destroyed Osiris ghouls and childer. Osiris was rent into hundreds of pieces, Horus was tortured losing an eye, Isis captured. They escaped, Isis along with the son of her and Osiris, Anubis. They raised a coalition of Werebeasts, Osiris remaining servants and childer, and mages, but it was felt that they also needed Osiris back to stand a chance against Set. Although Osiris wife and son were appalled at the thought of having to return a thing they loathed so much. But for vengeance's sake they were willing to exchange one demon for another. Isis spells and blood sacrifices returned Osiris from final death, and his first act was to drink his son Anubis dry while laughing at the screams and tears of his wife as their son died.

    Set sensed Osiris rebirth and fell upon them, destroying the coalition of Kindred, Mages, and Werebeasts who stood against him. But Horus returned from the dead in Ka form and struck Set down castrating him. Set took Isis and Horus lifeless body prisoner, but for reasons known only to him, released his sister Isis and her sons body.
    Only one of Osiris childer survived the battle on the farm. Khetamon a philosopher-magician who detested the vampiric state and managed to remain awake during the following day due to his high humanity. He fled to India and founded the Children of Osiris. His personal history has become confused with his sires and he is generally believed to be Osiris. Currently in Torpor.

    Comments: It must be stressed that this is exceptional, a first-person account. The kine, Mestha, seems to have no reason to lie, and also kept a physical piece of evidence. Sets penis, severed by Horus.

    It presents a very, very different view of Osiris from what we normally get. It also indicates that Set was vastly more powerful than Osiris, although Osiris could have been weakened by his recent resurrection and low on blood. However, even though a neonate in age, Set laughed off the werebeasts and mages along with Isis thunderbolts and fires. He does come across as a level above Osiris.

    This is dated as happening just before 3 000 BC. It is specifically before the joining of Upper and Lower Egypt. The information on Khetamon is surprising and as far as I know, not replicated elsewhere. But given the long association of the Reborn and the Children of Osiris, and Mesthas personal knowledge of Khetamon, Osiris etc, he may be one of the only people who would know this.


    Mummy 2nd edition (1997): Generally a collection of secondhand accounts, it does contain the Isis fragment that may be written by Isis. It also states that Set was banished by Osiris.

    It does offer far more detail on Osiris sire Typhon. He is said to have been breathtakingly beautiful, but cold in manner and body. The only emotion he displayed was a cruel humor. Frozen-eyed he was called. He returned on the full moon for four months to speak with Osiris to warn him of a tide of darkness and war. After the fourth month he left Osiris like himself. Isis, Osiris wife describes him as cold, distant, stern, rigid, and unyielding. He has also become strong as many bulls, possessing irresistible speech and can make the river Nile flood.

    It also mentions Thoth, who also came by night only, would not see Osiris but taught Isis and Nephthys great magics, including the Great Rite, the Spell of Life.

    Sets return proceeds much as it has in the other accounts, but we get some more information of the coalition against him. It includes Sebek/Sobek the chief of the Mokole, and the Bubastis werecats, and Wadiet, a childe of Set. It gives us the more standard version of Osiris resurrection, and, states that Anubis was the ferryman who took Osiris to and from the lands of the dead, imparting much wisdom to him including how to fight Setite corruption.

    It also notes that the Reborn believe the Second City was within the borders of todays Egypt and that Horus knows its location.

    Comments: This account erases Anubis the son of Osiris and Isis entirely. It also strips the credit for developing spell of Life from Isis and Nephthys and credits the ferryman that took Osiris to the lands of the Dead. Which probably means Charon. (Who is also credited with Osiris enlightenment on how to defeat the Beast. Could this be Golconda? Saulot knew how to return the dead too) It introduces Thoth who sounds like a powerful mage except that he is only seen at night.

    The Reborn assume the Mokole chief Sebek/Sobek died, whereas we know Set embraced him and that he has been kept in a temple since the Antediluvian Set was a neonate.

    A near-Antediluvian age Mokole Abomination of the Fourth Generation.

    The comment on the location of the second city was later confirmed, it was indeed in Egypt. The Setites thought this about the First City as well, but they were confusing the First and Second city histories at the same time, so it is quite possible they were confusing the two. We have more information on Typhon, and Osiris first disciplines. It is interesting that Typhon and Set never met, at least not in Egypt. Yet we have Typhon Set, the Path of Typhon and the Typhonic Beast. Interesting.

    It is worth remembering in relation to the battles of Set, Osiris and their childer that the main difference in power between the two and their children is generation. Osiris was embraced three years earlier and it was not that long before that he had banished Set. Their childer are virtually the same age as them.


    Mummy the Resurrection: (2001): Repeats that the Second City most likely is located in Egypt. It follows the story in Mummy second edition except setting it hundreds of years before the first dynasty of Egypt.


    Cairo by Night (2001): States that the Second City was in Egypt. Has some interesting bits about its undead inhabitants although not germane to this. Calls Set “misanthropic”. It also says that he was by far the last Antediluvian to arrive, and that he left shortly after. He was not present when the chaos that led to its fall erupted. In fact he left for Assyria just before that. It also mentions that one of the Antediluvians met Final Death in the fall of the Second City.

    Interestingly, it says all but one of the surviving Antediluvians felt compelled to leave Africa after the citys fall.

    It speculates that the increasing desertification of Egypt was due to the presence of so many Antediluvians over so much time, draining the life from the land. The clash of Osiris and Horus is said to begin a few centuries before 3 100. Also, it restates that Osiris gained the Spell of Life, the secrets of Bardo etc from Anubis the ferryman. Finally, we learn that the disciplines Osiris first developed was the vigor of a dozen bulls, irresistible power in his speech and the movement of the desert winds. Potence, Presence and Celerity.


    The White Wolf Wiki: It lists three childer of Set with embrace dates far earlier than 3100 BC. Wadjet, Nephtys, Nakthorheb are listed as embraced in the 6th millennium BC. However the wiki also lists Troile as embraced in 3 000 BC, so I felt I needed to check the references. As far as I could find, none of them actually have embrace dates recorded.


    Final notes and comments: I give the most weight to Mestahs account here. It is first person, he has no reason to lie, and he has physical evidence. Further, even among vampires the Setites have a less than average reputation for truthfulness.

    It seems clear that Set is much younger than the other Antediluvians. The Setites account is the only one trying to stretch his existence back 7 000 years. They are further confusing the First and Second Cities in their account. The 2nd ed Clanbook also mention that the prolific records of the Setites suddenly vanish and there is nothing to be found when you get to Egypt’s Old Kingdom and earlier.

    They are hiding something.

    Pretty much everything (including archeology) not from the Setites agree that Set and Osiris was born a bit before 3 100 BC, perhaps two-three centuries or so. Either it is just after the unification, or Horus finds the land unified after his first refresh of his undying status. That is much younger than the other Antediluvians and in fact younger than many extant members of the Fourth Generation.

    Now this is interesting: Set is too young to ever have been in the First City. So he was embraced after the Third Generation slew the Second. Hence, he cannot have been embraced into the Third Generation. He must have diablerized his way in there.

    Now Set was a famed warrior banished into a very harsh wilderness, surviving there. He was embraced by a female, got animal features with a snake theme, and his oldest bloodline does not have his patented Serpentis Discipline. They have Protean. That says Gangrel. Additionally, we know that Ennoia was active and siring in that area at the time. And some centuries later she is still there, explicitly dealing with shit Set left behind.

    I would speculate that the Antediluvian Set diablerized to get to the Third Generation was called Apep, and had Obtenebration as a Clan discipline. One might wonder what [Lasombra] thought about being the only master of darkness left. Any diablerie of Sets is likely to predate his return to Egypt and Osiris. He seemed to be far more powerful than rival of a similar age. So it likely happened in the Second City, with Set lighting out just as all hell broke loose. He did not get along with his elders there, it is clear. Alternately, it could have happened before he got there, and he arrived as a member of the Third Generation.

    An alternate explanation, one Antediluvian is said to have perished in the fall of the second city. Brujah. Troiles diablerie of her sire was the act that triggered the fall of the Second City, according to the Book of Nod.

    Now it seems extremely likely that Typhon was Brujah. The description of Typhon as “possessing no emotion except cruel humor”, cold, frozen-eyed, and Osiris similar loss of emotion and becoming cold and distant… that is the True Brujah Clan curse if ever I heard it. Add to it Osiris strength of bulls, irresistible speech and speed of winds… potence, presence and celerity. Typhon was Brujah, at a high level of probability.

    Additionally, the timespan 5 000 years show up quite a bit with the Trujah. “They have been waiting for their vengeance for 5 000 years” etc. This explains why Typhon never came back after embracing Osiris but left him to go Caitiff. He was destroyed very shortly afterwards in the fall of the Second City. And if Troile was on Humanity, I can see why she would have felt Typhon needed to go, he was clearly a right bastard.

    As an alternative to the Apep theory, Set probably felt Typhons embrace of Osiris was a hostile act towards him, and Typhon probably did stop in the Second City at times. If Set diablerized Typhon, and we know what happens when someone diablerizes a much more powerful kindred, it would explain why he suddenly started being called Typhon Set, made a Typhonic beast and called his moral system the Path of Typhon. Maybe Troile was framed, and he lit out. Very Setite. That is quite speculative, admittedly.

    The Second city was in Egypt. I was surprised to find how many places that cropped up when reading through this.

    On whether the Spell of Life came from Isis or Thoth and Anubis by way of Osiris, information seem to be about 50/50. I personally prefer Isis to have a bit more accomplishment and agency. Also I don’t see why the ferryman, who was probably Charon, should have far deeper insight in the vampiric condition than vampires.

    Khetamon or Osiris as the founder of the Children of Osiris… I prefer the Khetamon account. It is much more in line with the WoD I think. The development of the Mummy line seems to have been moving in the opposite direction though.

    Finally, I have no idea about the Assyria references, except as references to the area that would later become Assyria. There is no way to make the timeline work, Assyria is at best 500 years in the future when it is mentioned.

    What have I missed here?

  • MarkK
    replied
    Originally posted by Trollroot View Post

    It is from "Dread names, Red list" which expands a bit on Kheminitri and the Children of Osiris. The Children of Osiris relocated to Rome with Kheminitri and Mithras in the first century CE. Some time after that they were extinguished. Kheminitri reformed them in the 1300s. it is notable that almost everything we know about the Children of Osiris, Bardo etc come from this incarnation and so is filtered through Kheminitri. Almost everything, because Osiris/Khetamon is still active.

    I started this thread trying to compile all the relevant information across the editions.

    The entry does have a few other interesting tidbits, although not necessarily germane to this thread: Kheminitri were befriended by Serethor, a fourth generation vampire who was described as one of the Children of Osiris and a childe of Khetamon. And also that Kheminitri is well thought of in Lihannon lore, and seems to have gotten along very well with the Crone in the British Isles.
    DAV20 has the Children of Osiris existing in the 13th century just fine, as far as trying to treat any of that as definitive.

    Leave a comment:


  • monteparnas
    replied
    AFAIK the Children didn't got much in lore update for a long time, their main sources were Hunters Hunted and Kindred's Most Wanted through her entry. So it is understandable that when they decided to tackle the matter again in V20 they did some expansion and retcon, if not in the best way, maybe. It sounds a lot as just denying credibility to "good guys".

    Personally I'm using the old lore and not having them break up completely, although there may very well have been a reformation of sorts at some point.

    But all that said, what does that really means? Khetamon still takes part in it, and Khemintiri is a... peculiar person. Her memory seems to be very good, so while she may not be a stellar example of the Children she possibly remembers their ways exceedingly well. She's usually locked in an alternate persona that can sometimes be good as a saint, and the fact she was thinking about the Children at the time means she was likely to be in a reasonably amicable persona to their cause. And at the end of the day, we have their current situation and philosophy to be measured directly, along with Bardo, to evaluate it by what it's worth regardless of the original version. As far as we know, she may even have improved them at the eyes of Osiris.
    Last edited by monteparnas; 05-29-2022, 08:11 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trollroot
    replied
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    If this is current lore, it is retroactive continuity. Where are you getting this information? I'm sure there is some (likely late dated) sourcebook that has, but this contradicts the original established lore in 1992/1994.

    The Children of Osiris never went extinct during the days of Rome. They've been hiding in Nepal/Tibet since Khetamon fled Egypt. Maybe the Setites believe they destroyed the Children during the age of Rome, but if so they're wrong.

    Why Keminitiri knows Bardo has been explained since her entry in Kindred's Most Wanted in 1994 (which also gave her stats). After she fled Set and descended into the Wassail, Khetamon found her, rendered her unconscious, and used early variants of Bardo to restore her to some kind of human consciousness. She spent many years in tutelage with the Children of Osiris, but could never control her hatred of Set and so eventually left (with a lot of the secrets of the Children of Osiris). She's basically an apostate Children of Osiris. The Children now hunt her because 1) she's mad and extremely dangerous, and 2) she might possibly reveal certain things about the Children (like their location!) they don't want known (though in several thousand years she doesn't appear to have done so). There is no mystery to explain UNLESS you want to ignore canon and come up with your own idea because you like it better.

    I think we're likely talking about another "well on Earth-One it is like this, while on Earth-Two it is like this other thing." If so, that's OK. Almost all my books are from the 1990s, and I own very little of anything in the late Revised era, most V20 (except the corebook), and all V5 products.
    It is from "Dread names, Red list" which expands a bit on Kheminitri and the Children of Osiris. The Children of Osiris relocated to Rome with Kheminitri and Mithras in the first century CE. Some time after that they were extinguished. Kheminitri reformed them in the 1300s. it is notable that almost everything we know about the Children of Osiris, Bardo etc come from this incarnation and so is filtered through Kheminitri. Almost everything, because Osiris/Khetamon is still active.

    I started this thread trying to compile all the relevant information across the editions.

    The entry does have a few other interesting tidbits, although not necessarily germane to this thread: Kheminitri were befriended by Serethor, a fourth generation vampire who was described as one of the Children of Osiris and a childe of Khetamon. And also that Kheminitri is well thought of in Lihannon lore, and seems to have gotten along very well with the Crone in the British Isles.

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
    Originally, Osiris childe Khetamon impersonated Osiris and founded the Children. The original Children of Osiris went extinct during the days of Rome, and was refounded by Kheminitri around then, possibly with some help from her lover Mithras. That also most of what we know about the Children except what we have directly from Osiris/Khetamon and his son Horus.

    Who was Kheminitris lover in her mortal days. And now you know why he and Mithras came to blows once in London.

    So yes, its canon more or less.
    If this is current lore, it is retroactive continuity. Where are you getting this information? I'm sure there is some (likely late dated) sourcebook that has, but this contradicts the original established lore in 1992/1994.

    The Children of Osiris never went extinct during the days of Rome. They've been hiding in Nepal/Tibet since Khetamon fled Egypt. Maybe the Setites believe they destroyed the Children during the age of Rome, but if so they're wrong.

    Why Keminitiri knows Bardo has been explained since her entry in Kindred's Most Wanted in 1994 (which also gave her stats). After she fled Set and descended into the Wassail, Khetamon found her, rendered her unconscious, and used early variants of Bardo to restore her to some kind of human consciousness. She spent many years in tutelage with the Children of Osiris, but could never control her hatred of Set and so eventually left (with a lot of the secrets of the Children of Osiris). She's basically an apostate Children of Osiris. The Children now hunt her because 1) she's mad and extremely dangerous, and 2) she might possibly reveal certain things about the Children (like their location!) they don't want known (though in several thousand years she doesn't appear to have done so). There is no mystery to explain UNLESS you want to ignore canon and come up with your own idea because you like it better.

    I think we're likely talking about another "well on Earth-One it is like this, while on Earth-Two it is like this other thing." If so, that's OK. Almost all my books are from the 1990s, and I own very little of anything in the late Revised era, most V20 (except the corebook), and all V5 products.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trollroot
    replied
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

    They probably did that because Ba'al Hammon was the god of Carthage and there were stories about the people of Carthage engaging in ritual sacrifice including children. With something like that I imagine that including the Baali in Carthage was just too tempting to avoid on the part of the writers.
    Baal Hammon were probably the biblical Moloch, and the husband of Tiamat. Which may mean that they were originally Moloch and Troile. Of course, Tiamat is already a kindred.

    Baal Hammon is also sometimes thought to have been the same deity as Baal Haddad due to similarities in their cults. Baal Haddad was pretty much a different name for Set. Which has interesting implications..

    Leave a comment:


  • Trollroot
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    THE CHILDREN OF OSIRIS IS A SCAM THEORY

    One of the theories I had about the Children of Osiris was the discovery that Khemintiri has seven dots in Bardo. Now this is something she might have learned from the Children of Osiris herself and might have been why she was able to keep her (Low) Humanity. However, with her immense age and power, I had a couple of other thoughts. Specifically, way back in the Followers of Set book, there was actually a version of the story where Osiris is resurrected by Isis and is torn apart after devouring his son.

    It occurs to me that Osiris never actually lived long enough to create any sort of religion, let alone one that was devoted to humanity and goodness. I was wondering, possibly then, if the Children of Osiris were created by Khemintiri herself. Imagine that she was someone who had serious issues with the Followers of Set (no shit) and wanted an army of her own against them. Being a Follower of Set, though, she knew that religion is a great way to motivate people to sacrifice themselves.

    Rather than use herself as the goddess of the cult and possibly make herself a target, she instead recruits other vampires and weaves a tale about how Osiris was actually a holy, good, and kind figure who wanted Kindred to find their humanity again. She also proceeds to teach that the Followers of Set are pure evil and must be destroyed (no shit). The Children of Osiris thus become a bloodline created by her powerful magic that develop their own Discipline that she proceeds to unleash upon her enemies. All based on a dogma of lies.
    And who is to say differently?

    Set?

    Horus?
    Originally, Osiris childe Khetamon impersonated Osiris and founded the Children. The original Children of Osiris went extinct during the days of Rome, and was refounded by Kheminitri around then, possibly with some help from her lover Mithras. That also most of what we know about the Children except what we have directly from Osiris/Khetamon and his son Horus.

    Who was Kheminitris lover in her mortal days. And now you know why he and Mithras came to blows once in London.

    So yes, its canon more or less.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ravnos
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    THE CHILDREN OF OSIRIS IS A SCAM THEORY
    It occurs to me that Osiris never actually lived long enough to create any sort of religion, let alone one that was devoted to humanity and goodness. I was wondering, possibly then, if the Children of Osiris were created by Khemintiri herself. Imagine that she was someone who had serious issues with the Followers of Set (no shit) and wanted an army of her own against them. Being a Follower of Set, though, she knew that religion is a great way to motivate people to sacrifice themselves.
    I absolutely dig this theory
    Reminds me of the theories about Saulot not being a saint and he experimented a lot with his descendants creating different bloodlines and feeding them lies (I actually like the idea of Saulot being truly good-hearted, but I understand in the context of vampire a bleaker truth is fitting)

    As for the original Mummy and Horus saying that his father was an asshole... Horus could have been telling some lies too or maybe having very biased opinions or his own agenda
    This of course if we take for granted that Horus is the same being from egyptian mythology and not someone that just took the role...

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
    That's an interesting idea. I guess it depends on if and how you want to incorporate Mummy, since that pretty much confirms the Set/Osiris and Children of Osiris stories.
    I admit I only read the original Mummy where Horus' opinion is his father was a complete asshole, unlike mythology

    Leave a comment:


  • AnubisXy
    replied
    That's an interesting idea. I guess it depends on if and how you want to incorporate Mummy, since that pretty much confirms the Set/Osiris and Children of Osiris stories.

    Leave a comment:


  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
    This kind of goes with one of the great theories that Gehenna(s) are just a big culling of herds (of Cainites) by their Methuselahs and Antes, and the Eternal Jyhad are sort of set commands that keep it mostly working through lower "ranks" of generations and ages. Of course, the Jyhad specially makes everyone pretty nuts, and gets vamps to breed even more for their wars, which I suspect goes against the original plans. lol

    But... We could see Set and Osiris as too figures that want this bullshit to end. By a first view Osiris would want to stop the overpopulation and villany of vampires by conversion to disciplined and peace-minded vamps (mostly). While Set would also want to share the freedom from this herd of servants of the other Antes, many times through, it would be through "get this mindset out of your damn soul stupid, break from the cycle, or you will be slave and snack". And well, nothing is true but Set's words, and everything is permitted but Set's laws.

    Hell, Followers of Set were the original Anarchs. And they were being hypocrites before them too. But it's kind of hard not to be.
    It seems the Ante's struggle and the subsequent Jyhad is all about creating urgency and enemies with ideas (God's Judgment, Apocalypse, Infernalists, other vamps, your child, the future generations, your own Beast), and instigating a lot of fear. So the Baali, the Setites and Osirians are really interesting pieces of the board. As well as Haquimites, if you think they are true tools for judgment and culling of numbers, or if they are by design and ignorance such a resource.
    THE CHILDREN OF OSIRIS IS A SCAM THEORY

    One of the theories I had about the Children of Osiris was the discovery that Khemintiri has seven dots in Bardo. Now this is something she might have learned from the Children of Osiris herself and might have been why she was able to keep her (Low) Humanity. However, with her immense age and power, I had a couple of other thoughts. Specifically, way back in the Followers of Set book, there was actually a version of the story where Osiris is resurrected by Isis and is torn apart after devouring his son.

    It occurs to me that Osiris never actually lived long enough to create any sort of religion, let alone one that was devoted to humanity and goodness. I was wondering, possibly then, if the Children of Osiris were created by Khemintiri herself. Imagine that she was someone who had serious issues with the Followers of Set (no shit) and wanted an army of her own against them. Being a Follower of Set, though, she knew that religion is a great way to motivate people to sacrifice themselves.

    Rather than use herself as the goddess of the cult and possibly make herself a target, she instead recruits other vampires and weaves a tale about how Osiris was actually a holy, good, and kind figure who wanted Kindred to find their humanity again. She also proceeds to teach that the Followers of Set are pure evil and must be destroyed (no shit). The Children of Osiris thus become a bloodline created by her powerful magic that develop their own Discipline that she proceeds to unleash upon her enemies. All based on a dogma of lies.
    And who is to say differently?

    Set?

    Horus?

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    This kind of goes with one of the great theories that Gehenna(s) are just a big culling of herds (of Cainites) by their Methuselahs and Antes, and the Eternal Jyhad are sort of set commands that keep it mostly working through lower "ranks" of generations and ages. Of course, the Jyhad specially makes everyone pretty nuts, and gets vamps to breed even more for their wars, which I suspect goes against the original plans. lol

    But... We could see Set and Osiris as too figures that want this bullshit to end. By a first view Osiris would want to stop the overpopulation and villany of vampires by conversion to disciplined and peace-minded vamps (mostly). While Set would also want to share the freedom from this herd of servants of the other Antes, many times through, it would be through "get this mindset out of your damn soul stupid, break from the cycle, or you will be slave and snack". And well, nothing is true but Set's words, and everything is permitted but Set's laws.

    Hell, Followers of Set were the original Anarchs. And they were being hypocrites before them too. But it's kind of hard not to be.
    It seems the Ante's struggle and the subsequent Jyhad is all about creating urgency and enemies with ideas (God's Judgment, Apocalypse, Infernalists, other vamps, your child, the future generations, your own Beast), and instigating a lot of fear. So the Baali, the Setites and Osirians are really interesting pieces of the board. As well as Haquimites, if you think they are true tools for judgment and culling of numbers, or if they are by design and ignorance such a resource.

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  • Shadeprowler
    replied
    The Alliance against Nergal and Crate was a big thing too tho'
    When all 13 clans allied against them. Legendary Cainites from across the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and central Asia united against "Shaitan". Among them were the Brujah Menele, the Malkavian known only as the Dionysian, the Ventrue Balthazar, and a contingent Setite sorcerers led directly by the Antediluvian Set himself.
    The marshaled Cainites battled Nergal's forces for nine days and nine nights, but could not break through his defenses.
    As the clans were unable to penetrate the defenses of Nergal's lair beneath Crete, they instead resorted to drastic measures: they caused the volcano on the nearby island of Thera to erupt, burying Knossos beneath volcanic ash and obliterating Nergal's stronghold.
    I mean this had to be bigger than the conveniton gathering...

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post

    Hardly
    Don't forget the Feast of Folly. Over 12,000 Cainites gathered in the tiny Turkish underground city of [COLOR=#3A3A3A][FONT=rubik][SIZE=14px]Kaymakli when Cappadocius called the Clan of Death to judge them...
    I mean, it's a pretty good example as to why Cappaodias destroyed his Clan. It had become grossly horrifically overbred.

    Mind you, the Feast of Folly is something I judged to have been the correct action while others act like Cappadocias made a mistake.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Shadeprowler View Post
    Hardly
    I'm not so sure.

    The Feast of Folly isn't meant by any means or in any measure as a parameter for vampiric numbers. While it gives us an upper limit for some considerations, it doesn't say anything about what a reasonable gathering would be. It also includes every single Neonate or newly Embraced across the entire world, even torpid, not just Kaymakli. It's a poor piece of lore to establish how numerous vampires are in regular situations.

    And all those other cities are expected to be more regular situations for the time. They're not under pressure, so we can say for sure they're not nearly as full of vampires, but that can mean anything between a solid thousand Kindred or more... or two, just two.

    Finally, before the Modern era most people were in rural areas and even defining the territory controlled by a city was tricky, the land around it is relevant to a very good distance. How many vampires from Rome actually lived in the city of Rome, instead of any of the many Roman farms and villages through the entire Latium? Those vampires would be all technically from Rome, meet in Rome, under the influence of the Prince of Rome, Roman for all intents and purposes, despite living far apart enough so that crossing the entire region would take about a week on foot, maybe a little more (less to reach Rome, that's in the middle).

    So, how large is a large vampire alliance in Rome at the time of the Punic Wars? I don't know and there's nothing in the lore to give a clue. It could be less than two dozen or up to ten thousands.

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