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  • Trollroot
    started a topic Set and Osiris thread

    Set and Osiris thread

    So for a while I've been thinking I should write up a summary on what we know about them with my own comments.

    Set or Sutekh may be the Antediluvian we know the most about, even including the Pretenders like Augustus Giovanni and Tremere. There are accounts of Sets mortal life, by his clan, his mortal relatives (one of which is still alive) and his enemies, and they agree on many points. There has been a lot of discussion on the details of this and things like who was Typhon, and the age of Set, who is generally assumed to be younger than the other true Antediluvians. I thought I would gather the information we had in one place, and add some speculations of my own.

    So:

    According to the Setite Clanbook, 1st ed (1995) Set was born a bit after 5 000 BC, and was the warlord who under his grandfather Ra united the lands of Upper and Lower Egypt into one nations. Set was banished to the desert by Ra, and his brother Osiris made heir. Set returned after Ras death to demand the kingdom be divided and he be made King of Upper Egypt. Osiris denied him this, and banished him to the desert again.
    Interestingly, the Clanbook specifies that Set then traveled north into Assyria where he met his sire, who is referred to as “her”. They traveled to the Second City (meaning it was elsewhere) where Set met his brothers and sisters of the Third Generation. They were unkind to Set on account of him being so much younger than they.
    The Setite Clanbook notes that the Clan curse was present from Sets embrace, and does not attribute it to Caine. It claims Set was away from the city when the Third Generation rose up against their sires. (That is the specific claim) Set swore vengeance on the Third Generation. The Clanbook states that Set returned to Egypt, clashed with the now kindred Osiris, and slew him. Also stating that Osiris was the one who was castrated in that fight. And that Set then ruled Egypt for 2000 years until the Libyan invaded and drove Set into the desert again. Set later returned, and it moves into later history.

    Comments: So obviously, the Setites timeframe here does not work. According to modern archeology, Upper and Lower Egypt was unified around 3 100 BC by Menes. Assyria dates back to the 25th century BC. The Libyan conquest of Egypt was in 1 100 BC. Which is actually 2 000 years after the union of Upper and Lower Egypt. The story of Set demanding Osiris divide Egypt and give him Upper Egypt makes no sense until after 3 100 BC when Egypt consolidates into one kingdom. It does confirm that Set was younger than the other Antediluvians, and by a large enough margin for them to disparage him.

    The Third generation rose up against their sires in the First City, the fall of the Second City according to the Book of Nod was caused by the Fourth Generation, led by Troile, rising against the Third.

    And mostly, everyone else agrees Horus castrated Set.

    There has been speculation that Set started out as a Gangrel of the Fourth Generation. The sire referred to as “her” could be either Ennoia or Zillah. The Weeping Stone is in northern Iraq, and could be within the territory of the Assyrian empire at its largest. We do however, know that Ennoia was active and siring progeny in the area during this time. Ereshkigal in Sumer, and in 2 200 BC she sired Enkidu explicitly to preserve a creation of Sets, the Typhonic beast.

    A lot of this falls into place if we assume that Set was sired around 3 100 BC, and that the Setites are lying to exaggerate their age.


    The Setite Clanbook 2nd ed (2001) does not go into this history much. No dates or much in the way of details. It does contain a few interesting facts:
    It is claimed that the First Citys name was Annu and that it was located where the outskirts of Cairo stand today. The Setites claim that Set became a vampire through the defeat of the entity/god called Apep, the Worm of Darkness and eating its heart. The Tlacique is a Setite bloodline so old its origin is lost. And the 9th level Serpentis power, Shadow of Apep, draws upon the power of the God/creature whose heart Set drank and turns the user into a giant serpent made of Obtenebration-darkness.

    Comments: The Tlacique, the oldest Setite bloodline, does not have Serpentis at all, they have Protean. That’s interesting. “Eating its heart” sounds suspiciously like drinking the hearts blood. And south of Egypt, south of Nubia, south even of their southern neighbor Punt (That was only located in December 2020), Becketts Jyhad Diary mentions Kindred with Obtenebration that does not seem connected to the Lasombra.


    Mummy 1st ed (1992) also tells the tale of Osiris, Set and Horus. It is notable for being not from old copies of older manuscripts, hearsay, or tales passed from sire to childe to childe. It is a first person account told by a Kine who was there.

    It states that it begun 5 000 years ago, and that Osiris banished Set into the western desert upon assuming kingship, after which he sought to unify Egypt. Initially, he did not meet with success. A stranger came to the court of Osiris and stayed for four months before he departed, leaving Osiris as dead. Osiris then rose as a Kindred, and claimed dominion of the river Nile. Osiris was referred to as evil, ruled by his desires, arranged blood sacrifices and fed his guards his blood going so far as to make some of them as himself. He warred in the east for 3 years.
    Then Set returned, superior to Osiris in bloodlust, power and desires. Set tricked Osiris into a sarcophagus and easily destroyed Osiris ghouls and childer. Osiris was rent into hundreds of pieces, Horus was tortured losing an eye, Isis captured. They escaped, Isis along with the son of her and Osiris, Anubis. They raised a coalition of Werebeasts, Osiris remaining servants and childer, and mages, but it was felt that they also needed Osiris back to stand a chance against Set. Although Osiris wife and son were appalled at the thought of having to return a thing they loathed so much. But for vengeance's sake they were willing to exchange one demon for another. Isis spells and blood sacrifices returned Osiris from final death, and his first act was to drink his son Anubis dry while laughing at the screams and tears of his wife as their son died.

    Set sensed Osiris rebirth and fell upon them, destroying the coalition of Kindred, Mages, and Werebeasts who stood against him. But Horus returned from the dead in Ka form and struck Set down castrating him. Set took Isis and Horus lifeless body prisoner, but for reasons known only to him, released his sister Isis and her sons body.
    Only one of Osiris childer survived the battle on the farm. Khetamon a philosopher-magician who detested the vampiric state and managed to remain awake during the following day due to his high humanity. He fled to India and founded the Children of Osiris. His personal history has become confused with his sires and he is generally believed to be Osiris. Currently in Torpor.

    Comments: It must be stressed that this is exceptional, a first-person account. The kine, Mestha, seems to have no reason to lie, and also kept a physical piece of evidence. Sets penis, severed by Horus.

    It presents a very, very different view of Osiris from what we normally get. It also indicates that Set was vastly more powerful than Osiris, although Osiris could have been weakened by his recent resurrection and low on blood. However, even though a neonate in age, Set laughed off the werebeasts and mages along with Isis thunderbolts and fires. He does come across as a level above Osiris.

    This is dated as happening just before 3 000 BC. It is specifically before the joining of Upper and Lower Egypt. The information on Khetamon is surprising and as far as I know, not replicated elsewhere. But given the long association of the Reborn and the Children of Osiris, and Mesthas personal knowledge of Khetamon, Osiris etc, he may be one of the only people who would know this.


    Mummy 2nd edition (1997): Generally a collection of secondhand accounts, it does contain the Isis fragment that may be written by Isis. It also states that Set was banished by Osiris.

    It does offer far more detail on Osiris sire Typhon. He is said to have been breathtakingly beautiful, but cold in manner and body. The only emotion he displayed was a cruel humor. Frozen-eyed he was called. He returned on the full moon for four months to speak with Osiris to warn him of a tide of darkness and war. After the fourth month he left Osiris like himself. Isis, Osiris wife describes him as cold, distant, stern, rigid, and unyielding. He has also become strong as many bulls, possessing irresistible speech and can make the river Nile flood.

    It also mentions Thoth, who also came by night only, would not see Osiris but taught Isis and Nephthys great magics, including the Great Rite, the Spell of Life.

    Sets return proceeds much as it has in the other accounts, but we get some more information of the coalition against him. It includes Sebek/Sobek the chief of the Mokole, and the Bubastis werecats, and Wadiet, a childe of Set. It gives us the more standard version of Osiris resurrection, and, states that Anubis was the ferryman who took Osiris to and from the lands of the dead, imparting much wisdom to him including how to fight Setite corruption.

    It also notes that the Reborn believe the Second City was within the borders of todays Egypt and that Horus knows its location.

    Comments: This account erases Anubis the son of Osiris and Isis entirely. It also strips the credit for developing spell of Life from Isis and Nephthys and credits the ferryman that took Osiris to the lands of the Dead. Which probably means Charon. (Who is also credited with Osiris enlightenment on how to defeat the Beast. Could this be Golconda? Saulot knew how to return the dead too) It introduces Thoth who sounds like a powerful mage except that he is only seen at night.

    The Reborn assume the Mokole chief Sebek/Sobek died, whereas we know Set embraced him and that he has been kept in a temple since the Antediluvian Set was a neonate.

    A near-Antediluvian age Mokole Abomination of the Fourth Generation.

    The comment on the location of the second city was later confirmed, it was indeed in Egypt. The Setites thought this about the First City as well, but they were confusing the First and Second city histories at the same time, so it is quite possible they were confusing the two. We have more information on Typhon, and Osiris first disciplines. It is interesting that Typhon and Set never met, at least not in Egypt. Yet we have Typhon Set, the Path of Typhon and the Typhonic Beast. Interesting.

    It is worth remembering in relation to the battles of Set, Osiris and their childer that the main difference in power between the two and their children is generation. Osiris was embraced three years earlier and it was not that long before that he had banished Set. Their childer are virtually the same age as them.


    Mummy the Resurrection: (2001): Repeats that the Second City most likely is located in Egypt. It follows the story in Mummy second edition except setting it hundreds of years before the first dynasty of Egypt.


    Cairo by Night (2001): States that the Second City was in Egypt. Has some interesting bits about its undead inhabitants although not germane to this. Calls Set “misanthropic”. It also says that he was by far the last Antediluvian to arrive, and that he left shortly after. He was not present when the chaos that led to its fall erupted. In fact he left for Assyria just before that. It also mentions that one of the Antediluvians met Final Death in the fall of the Second City.

    Interestingly, it says all but one of the surviving Antediluvians felt compelled to leave Africa after the citys fall.

    It speculates that the increasing desertification of Egypt was due to the presence of so many Antediluvians over so much time, draining the life from the land. The clash of Osiris and Horus is said to begin a few centuries before 3 100. Also, it restates that Osiris gained the Spell of Life, the secrets of Bardo etc from Anubis the ferryman. Finally, we learn that the disciplines Osiris first developed was the vigor of a dozen bulls, irresistible power in his speech and the movement of the desert winds. Potence, Presence and Celerity.


    The White Wolf Wiki: It lists three childer of Set with embrace dates far earlier than 3100 BC. Wadjet, Nephtys, Nakthorheb are listed as embraced in the 6th millennium BC. However the wiki also lists Troile as embraced in 3 000 BC, so I felt I needed to check the references. As far as I could find, none of them actually have embrace dates recorded.


    Final notes and comments: I give the most weight to Mestahs account here. It is first person, he has no reason to lie, and he has physical evidence. Further, even among vampires the Setites have a less than average reputation for truthfulness.

    It seems clear that Set is much younger than the other Antediluvians. The Setites account is the only one trying to stretch his existence back 7 000 years. They are further confusing the First and Second Cities in their account. The 2nd ed Clanbook also mention that the prolific records of the Setites suddenly vanish and there is nothing to be found when you get to Egypt’s Old Kingdom and earlier.

    They are hiding something.

    Pretty much everything (including archeology) not from the Setites agree that Set and Osiris was born a bit before 3 100 BC, perhaps two-three centuries or so. Either it is just after the unification, or Horus finds the land unified after his first refresh of his undying status. That is much younger than the other Antediluvians and in fact younger than many extant members of the Fourth Generation.

    Now this is interesting: Set is too young to ever have been in the First City. So he was embraced after the Third Generation slew the Second. Hence, he cannot have been embraced into the Third Generation. He must have diablerized his way in there.

    Now Set was a famed warrior banished into a very harsh wilderness, surviving there. He was embraced by a female, got animal features with a snake theme, and his oldest bloodline does not have his patented Serpentis Discipline. They have Protean. That says Gangrel. Additionally, we know that Ennoia was active and siring in that area at the time. And some centuries later she is still there, explicitly dealing with shit Set left behind.

    I would speculate that the Antediluvian Set diablerized to get to the Third Generation was called Apep, and had Obtenebration as a Clan discipline. One might wonder what [Lasombra] thought about being the only master of darkness left. Any diablerie of Sets is likely to predate his return to Egypt and Osiris. He seemed to be far more powerful than rival of a similar age. So it likely happened in the Second City, with Set lighting out just as all hell broke loose. He did not get along with his elders there, it is clear. Alternately, it could have happened before he got there, and he arrived as a member of the Third Generation.

    An alternate explanation, one Antediluvian is said to have perished in the fall of the second city. Brujah. Troiles diablerie of her sire was the act that triggered the fall of the Second City, according to the Book of Nod.

    Now it seems extremely likely that Typhon was Brujah. The description of Typhon as “possessing no emotion except cruel humor”, cold, frozen-eyed, and Osiris similar loss of emotion and becoming cold and distant… that is the True Brujah Clan curse if ever I heard it. Add to it Osiris strength of bulls, irresistible speech and speed of winds… potence, presence and celerity. Typhon was Brujah, at a high level of probability.

    Additionally, the timespan 5 000 years show up quite a bit with the Trujah. “They have been waiting for their vengeance for 5 000 years” etc. This explains why Typhon never came back after embracing Osiris but left him to go Caitiff. He was destroyed very shortly afterwards in the fall of the Second City. And if Troile was on Humanity, I can see why she would have felt Typhon needed to go, he was clearly a right bastard.

    As an alternative to the Apep theory, Set probably felt Typhons embrace of Osiris was a hostile act towards him, and Typhon probably did stop in the Second City at times. If Set diablerized Typhon, and we know what happens when someone diablerizes a much more powerful kindred, it would explain why he suddenly started being called Typhon Set, made a Typhonic beast and called his moral system the Path of Typhon. Maybe Troile was framed, and he lit out. Very Setite. That is quite speculative, admittedly.

    The Second city was in Egypt. I was surprised to find how many places that cropped up when reading through this.

    On whether the Spell of Life came from Isis or Thoth and Anubis by way of Osiris, information seem to be about 50/50. I personally prefer Isis to have a bit more accomplishment and agency. Also I don’t see why the ferryman, who was probably Charon, should have far deeper insight in the vampiric condition than vampires.

    Khetamon or Osiris as the founder of the Children of Osiris… I prefer the Khetamon account. It is much more in line with the WoD I think. The development of the Mummy line seems to have been moving in the opposite direction though.

    Finally, I have no idea about the Assyria references, except as references to the area that would later become Assyria. There is no way to make the timeline work, Assyria is at best 500 years in the future when it is mentioned.

    What have I missed here?

  • Trollroot
    replied
    Things I have come across since I last posted here:

    The Ventrue Clanbook, revised, accuses Set of having diablerized an Antediluvian in the Second City "cut out and ate her dead heart" They do, however, peg Arikel as the victim and the Toreador Antediluvian has clearly been active since. The phrasing is interesting in relation to how the Setites say Set cut out and ate the Heart of Apep. It seems possible they got the name wrong or distorted over the millennia.

    Lore of the Clans has a Setite origin tale, one of three, that flat-out states that he was embraced by Ennoia as a Gangrel.

    Thinking about it a lot of Sets Childer has visual representations in Egyptian art, and they are all portrayed as having severe cases of animal features.

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  • Ideon
    replied
    Originally posted by Banu_Saulot View Post
    Makes me think... if Set/Typhon could contact his Church, would he? And what would he order them to do?
    His Church certainly tried contacting him, and in the old Gehenna book there were two wildly different scenarios when they succeeded, which in light of the notion of Set and Typhon being 2 different Cainites that ate each other, suddenly make a lot more sense:

    1. The Setites contact Set in the Underworld and try to bring him back... and fail, for he is deader than dead. He does, however, wish for his Followers to join him. The vast majority of them [are compelled to] commit suicide right then and there, and IIRC those that are prevented from doing so are horrendously depressed and listless. From the idea that this is a 2-man show, this is probably actual Set, severed from his own body by [Typhon].

    2. The Setites, led by at least one of their Methuselahs, manage to bodily resurrect their founder... who looks upon his 'followers', promptly declares them unworthy, and starts eating any he can catch. If one of these two had to be [Typhon], the metaphorical serpent devouring their own tail here sounds the most likely.
    Last edited by Ideon; 03-17-2021, 04:39 AM.

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  • Eldagusto
    replied
    Just got to glance at this, but Anubis was far older then Charon, and implied to be the oldest Ferryman. Originally in the Gehenna Book an author was going to reveal Anubis as the Ghost of Abel but that’s was cut but it’s a really cool idea.

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    Some threads should get a Noddist Seal for the level of arcane lore-ledge the people show, digging deeper than Nosferatu.

    But I got to wonder, V5 Ministry, especially the Church of Set from Cults of the Blood Gods, show some really interesting sides of the Setites that were for much time obscure or simply "the evil cult of non-Caine worshipers of evil things that do evil things", and I always wondered why they were treated any different from the Baali, but now I see them much more elegantly. Also, they summom the spirit (wraith I think) of the general, who attacked and made them have the exodus from Egypt, every year (or maybe decade) just to torment him, which is kind of funny and creepy. So they do have some time of necromancy of some sort, even if only ritualized. Makes me think... if Set/Typhon could contact his Church, would he? And what would he order them to do?

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  • Trollroot
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    Leaving aside that newly sired 3rd Gens are not the same as Antediluvians (they still start with mortal attributes/abilities and have to train up all the disciplines...
    Well, we don't really know what newly sired 3rd generation kindred are like. Neither Tremere nor Augustus were sired into that generation. The last time someone was spawned so close to Caine, their sires blood was much younger than today.

    Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    I’m not actually married to the notion thaf Ennoia became 2nd Gen so much as some 2nd Gen involvement smooths out some of the generational weirdness.
    Personally I feel that:
    • When generational discrepancies crop up among kindred, diablerie is far and away the most common reason. Surprise members of the Second Generation is not a go-to assumption. Occams razor.
    • We have stats for many of Ennoias childer and grandchilder. They are Fourth and Fifth generation.
    • When examining Sets background, we have found many signs and hints that he committed diablerie. It is sort of like assembling a puzzle and seeing that it does actually make a picture. We'd have to say that Set had other reasons for changing his name to Typhon, etc.
    Personally, I'd be loath to let go of the way all the pieces seem to fit together when you look at the obscure bits of lore. I am enjoying the fact that if you dig up all these bits of separate lore back to the 1st ed, they seem to fit together and tell a story. But thats just me

    Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    Specifically, if Typhon = Brujah and was diablerized by Set then how does Troile get to 3rd Gen?
    Several possibilities.
    • White Wolf did once state that Toile never completed a diablerie of Brujah.
    • Someone destroyed Ventrue. There have been speculation that that is where Troile got to the Third Generation.
    • Troile is certainly very old, and may predate the curse of weakening blood.
    • Set may have framed Troile, and Troile ran with it.
    • Troile may have seduced Set into it. Troile was older and more experienced in vampiric matters than Set, and may not have wanted to risk a diablerie. Troile may still have gotten the blame.

    And for a more out there option... Troile is described as a passionate warrior ruled by emotions. Set is described as a passionate warrior ruled by emotions. Both are noted to have been among the younger Kindred in the Second City. There are indications of diablerie to reach the third generation for both of them. Both seem to be associated with the northeastern shore of Africa. Both were noted during the Iron Age to spend much time wandering. Both are associated with their clans being wiped out and restarted at some point in antiquity. Troile fell into torpor at the last battle of Carthage. Set vanished around roughly the same time.

    Maybe these are not two separate Antediluvians. Maybe they are two sets of tales about the same one.(Personality-wise they seem to have been identical back in Sets warrior days) Set would have wandered under the name Troile and sired a few people. Might have invented the name to shift blame. Or sequestered his original personality as Typhon took him over more and more.

    Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    Perhaps the easiest thing to take care of the weirdness is just that Set was embraced by Zillah before she met her end. The second generation did survive into the Second City period in some accounts and the White Wolf wiki lists Zillah’s final death possibly being as late as 2500 BC or 600+ years after Set was embraced. In which case Set could have been embraced by Zillah, was always 3rd Gen and never committed diablerie on Typhon/Brujah (that was Troile) and his adopting the name was either happenstance (i.e. Typhon as generic title like Baal, not a given name) or part of some scheme (stealing some of Brujah’s followers before Troile could get them after the diablerie of Brujah).
    Zillah as Sets sire is the common assumption, yes. I just find the notion clashes with a lot of information we have: The second generation supposedly fell a long time before the Second City. Their fall was the reason for many of the Clan Curses. Absimilliards curse in particular was due to his slaying of Zillah I think? Baba Yaga got the Nosferatu clan curse 7 000 years ago. The Nictuku was explicitly sired to help destroy the second generation, and Vasilisa was more than twice as old as her. We have several other Fourth Generation Kindred who are older than 3000 BC and have clan curses. Didn't Caine leave due to Zillahs death? He would have been around in the Second City if she was still alive and that would clash with everything.

    We also have to write off all the indications we have that Set diablerized an elder kindred:
    • Set has an animal feature
    • Sets oldest Setite childe has an animal feature.
    • Sets probably oldest bloodline does not have Serpentis, but Protean.
    • The records-obsessed Setites are clearly futzing the Second City stories.
    • Set was embraced so late that the time is generally considered after the second generation was destroyed
    • Assyria is mentioned several times in Sets origin. At the time, those lands were Ennoias territory
    • In 2200 BC Ennoia was taking care of Sets Typhonic beast in the area. (Shes not normally opposed to extinctions)
    • Typhon was a kindred who embraced Osiris, explicitly to further some power play of his. But he never came back to Osiris court, Set returned instead.
    • Set changed his name to Typhon, named his philosophy for Typhon, and made a beast he named for Typhon.
    • Typhon in the myths is the serpent god who is slain by the redheded storm god. Set was a redheaded storm god, who suddenly got himself a serpent theme.
    • Setites claims Set ate the heart of Apep. Apep seems associated with Obtenebration and Serpents. Typhon means "Abyss" in a language current at the time.

    And others I may have forgotten. But Set being sired into the Fourth generation and diablerizing himself into the Third early and unwisely, would explain it all elegantly, and adds to the lore, while giving rise to story possibilities.

    Also, realized something: Using the Shadow of Apep Serpentis power turns you into a great black worm. That is an interesting parallel to the white worm in Vienna.

    I have been remembering WWs out-of-character line about the Setites: "They were utterly wrong about everything" That is interesting in light of the Setite clan having a near-complete turnover at 950 BC or so. An interesting possibility is that Typhon is the Dark Father, Bastard of Caine from the Book of Nod, that he has been eating Set from the inside for thousands of years, and is just about finished. And that this is why the Trujah have found themselves drawn into alliance with the Setites...
    Last edited by Trollroot; 03-06-2021, 08:16 PM.

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  • Chris24601
    replied
    Anyway, I don't buy Ennoia hitting 2nd generation. Her sirings, include Odin the All-high, Enkidu, Ereshkigal, Hukos, Rufus, Kurru and Vola the Red. Most of which would have been after this time. So potentially seven extra Antediluvians. That seems ...improbable.
    Leaving aside that newly sired 3rd Gens are not the same as Antediluvians (they still start with mortal attributes/abilities and have to train up all the disciplines... who knows how many XP the 10th dot in a discipline actually costs), I’m not actually married to the notion thaf Ennoia became 2nd Gen so much as some 2nd Gen involvement smooths out some of the generational weirdness.

    Specifically, if Typhon = Brujah and was diablerized by Set then how does Troile get to 3rd Gen?

    Perhaps the easiest thing to take care of the weirdness is just that Set was embraced by Zillah before she met her end. The second generation did survive into the Second City period in some accounts and the White Wolf wiki lists Zillah’s final death possibly being as late as 2500 BC or 600+ years after Set was embraced. In which case Set could have been embraced by Zillah, was always 3rd Gen and never committed diablerie on Typhon/Brujah (that was Troile) and his adopting the name was either happenstance (i.e. Typhon as generic title like Baal, not a given name) or part of some scheme (stealing some of Brujah’s followers before Troile could get them after the diablerie of Brujah).

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  • Banu_Saulot
    replied
    I ain't got lore knowledge enough nor history acumen to add much to the discussion, but I gotta say, this thread is awesome. It makes me feel the fun and exciting side of WoD community, and the value of the OnyxPath Forum. Great job people, it's been awesome.

    But now, I wonder how the use of mummies tipped the balance between the Set x Osiris conflict. Was it game-changing, or something that helped more to the sides than the fronts?

    Leave a comment:


  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
    There was alot of Antediluvian activity going on just before that, around the Bronze Age Collapse anyway. Interestingly, I think 950 BC would be around the time of David and Solomon?
    Yes, that is around its time.

    This period of Egyptian history is a time when Egypt became dominated by the Libyans who lived west of the Nile. This is actually referenced in first edition Mummy which states "...Horus, allied with foreigners from the west, drove Set out of Egypt...". Which shows the people who wrote this actually knew something about Egyptian history!

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  • Trollroot
    replied
    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    I like where you're going in general, but I wouldn't credit the destruction of Set's original progeny to himself. Mummy is clear that it took a coalition of vampires, mages, mummies, and fera to break the power of Set and drive him out of Egypt for good. It feels cheap to then say that this was Set's plan along. I would much rather have an apocalyptic war at the dawn of time in the deep background of the setting.
    Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

    I agree. As written, the destruction of Set's childer and lineage is clearly a result of a defeat after a prolonged war. Set's enemies destroyed them. But there is always the possibility that Set decided to purge those that had "failed" him either before his exile, or after he left. In any case, I think what the text is telling us is that the Followers of Set as we know them today in terms of clan culture and organization ("strict hierarchy"), basically started sometime after 900 BC. It was probably done to rectify what Set thought were weaknesses that lead to his defeat.

    This does not necessarily mean every single Setite vampire before 900 BC was destroyed. Just that most of them were. There could always be ones in torpor that wake up later, lone survivors from Egypt, or ones that existed outside Egypt. But they are few in number, and perhaps either were designated as enemies by Set since they remember the "old" ways. Or when they do wake up, are a potential source of heresy or trouble since they don't fit into the new clan.

    There's a lot of ways an ST could play with the situation while keeping to this.
    You are right. I was thinking without checking. If you wanted to do the war at the dawn of time, it is also possible to say Set was changing at the time, and purged his clan to fit into his new vision -and then the coalition attacked, at a time when Set had no childer of age and power left. Sort of an analogy to how Stalin purged the military right before WW2. There is nothing I know to support or deny that, but it makes for an interesting story. Also, maybe the first Tlacique escaped to South America at this time?

    There was alot of Antediluvian activity going on just before that, around the Bronze Age Collapse anyway. Interestingly, I think 950 BC would be around the time of David and Solomon?


    Originally posted by Ravnos View Post
    I recall somewhere in the revised edition corebook that some Setites or some followers of the Path of the Typhon do know Obtenebration. It was written as if it was nothing very odd.
    One of the things that led me to believe that Disciplines weren't intended to be as much "clan exclusive" in 3rd edition at first. To be fair, discipline exclusiveness was cementified in earlier and also later books

    Something in my headcanon I always used to reconcile real world Set mythology with the WoD set (if that's really necessary) is that Set devouring Apep acquired the current weakness and the serpentis discipline and became altered in body and mind (he became eeeeevil). A hero fall from grace maybe?
    Well, there is that Obtenebration connection again. It does keep cropping up, and it doesn't fit what we know of Brujah. Doesn't go against anything we know of him either though.

    What we know so far is:
    • Typhon by description is a pretty exact match for Brujah, and Osiris seems to have been that as well. Kindred legend peg Brujahs demise to around the time he failed to show up for Osiris.
    • Typhon is associated in myth with serpents and Set was not, he was a redheaded storm god.
    • In the Typhon myths he keeps getting killed by a redheaded storm god.
    • Set changed in a way that is highly consistent with a more powerful kindred taking over a diablerist.
    • Typhons name may come from an old word for Abyss. (The timing works out nicely here, according to the most popular hypotesis of the origin of the Indo-European langages, they were spreading around the Pontic steppe at exactly this time. When Typhon introduced himself at Osiris court he may have been saying "I am the Abyss" in a language current at the time)
    • Pulling on the power Set drew from eating the heart of Apep with Serpentis makes you a serpent of Obenebration-dark
    • Followers of the Path of Typhon often pick up Obtenebration.
    I think the easiest hypothesis here is that Brujah was a heavy Obtenebration user, and that neither the Trujah or Troile inherited it. After all, Haquims spawn has Celerity, Obfuscate, Quietus, Auspex, Presence, and Assamite Sorcery in-can, Cappadocious blood got Necromancy, Fortitude, Potence, Auspex and Dominate, and god only knows how many in-clans Saulots or Ennoias get totals.
    At the time Typhon sired Osiris he was clearly going around Africa building a power-base. I'd speculate some of the Obtenebration.using legacies of Africa such as the Ramanga or the Kindred Beckett spoke with with the peculiar Obtenbration effect may have gotten their origin at this time.

    Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
    One oft overlooked part of mythical Set’s portfolio was storms (which in Egypt rolled in from the deserts). So, consider that the story of a storm god overcoming a dark serpent birthed by Gaia (grandmother of Zeus) may not have Zeus overcoming Typhon... but Set overcoming and diablerizing [Typhon], the childe of Enoia (who might have pulled off 2nd Gen status somehow and was already taking on the role of Gaia with all her Earthmelding).
    Serpents are also associated with bringing knowledge, particularily in the Judo-christian tradition. And also known for being cold-blooded. That does fit Brujah of the Learned Clan.

    Anyway, I don't buy Ennoia hitting 2nd generation. Her sirings, include Odin the All-high, Enkidu, Ereshkigal, Hukos, Rufus, Kurru and Vola the Red. Most of which would have been after this time. So potentially seven extra Antediluvians. That seems ...improbable.

    I'd like to suggest another possibility if we need a "Gaia" equivalent: The Crone. Didn't we have a thread here a while ago on who "The Dark Father, Bastard of Caine" could be? TBH, the only thing we have to go on here is the presence of a Gaia foure in some of the myths on Typhon, nothing from White wolf or Kindred, so its thin.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Originally posted by blackshade View Post
    Interesting thread. Would love to see something similair for some of the other antes. Maybe Haqim.
    He's probably the most well-documented, least controversial ante by a long shot. Only Lasombra is rivals him for transparency (pun unintended).

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  • blackshade
    replied
    Interesting thread. Would love to see something similair for some of the other antes. Maybe Haqim.

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  • Black Fox
    replied
    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    I like where you're going in general, but I wouldn't credit the destruction of Set's original progeny to himself. Mummy is clear that it took a coalition of vampires, mages, mummies, and fera to break the power of Set and drive him out of Egypt for good. It feels cheap to then say that this was Set's plan along. I would much rather have an apocalyptic war at the dawn of time in the deep background of the setting.
    I agree. As written, the destruction of Set's childer and lineage is clearly a result of a defeat after a prolonged war. Set's enemies destroyed them. But there is always the possibility that Set decided to purge those that had "failed" him either before his exile, or after he left. In any case, I think what the text is telling us is that the Followers of Set as we know them today in terms of clan culture and organization ("strict hierarchy"), basically started sometime after 900 BC. It was probably done to rectify what Set thought were weaknesses that lead to his defeat.

    This does not necessarily mean every single Setite vampire before 900 BC was destroyed. Just that most of them were. There could always be ones in torpor that wake up later, lone survivors from Egypt, or ones that existed outside Egypt. But they are few in number, and perhaps either were designated as enemies by Set since they remember the "old" ways. Or when they do wake up, are a potential source of heresy or trouble since they don't fit into the new clan.

    There's a lot of ways an ST could play with the situation while keeping to this.

    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    I realize that many people inherently dislike crossovers in the World of Darkness, but I think they're entirely harmless as setting background material, such as the whole topic of this thread. Mummy was always intended to be a crossover splat, and that's where a lot of the details about Set and Osiris were first laid down. Mixing the various splats together is thus kind of inherent to the background of the Followers of Set.
    I think crossover in the sense of PCs from different lines is very difficult because of mechanic issues. And trying to keep each faction properly presented can create problems for an ST to run a game that treats everyone equally. However, in terms of the setting itself - when these other elements are simply NPCs controlled by the ST - it's not a problem especially as you said as deep background lore.

    The early game was meant to be part of a single setting. It wasn't until Revised when bickering over what took precedent caused the Developers of each game line to declare they were actually separate from each other. This unfortunately is all too common in many "shared universe" settings. The old Thieves World series of fantasy books collapsed because of that kind of bickering. And comic companies have tried to deal with it in numerous ways.

    However, in practice it can be very hard to incorporate creatures from other game lines because it means mastering lore and abilities found in other game books that people may not own. Every so often someone posts here asking for help for wanting to incorporate some werewolves or ghosts into the game, and the thread just becomes an info dump that becomes increasingly complicated. So many STs just choose not to use those elements at all. And to be frank, Vampire probably is the best game line where these other elements can be ignored entirely and concentrate just on the line's own elements to exclusion of others.

    When I first played (and ST'd) Vampire, that's what we did. Vampire only - everything else was just ignored. And it worked great. However, as I did slowly play other games (or at least extensively read them) my perspective changed, and I now like to include some amount of crossover in the setting. Not just historical background, but elements that could happen in game (usually as sandbox style groups the PCs could run into based on their own actions). But it takes care and skill to portray them in a manner that fits the main setting you play in, as opposed to a distractive monster mash type of game that overwhelms distinctive Vampire themes. It requires a lot more preparation on the part of the ST, so I understand why many people exclude it.

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  • Chris24601
    replied
    Regarding the actual names of figures like [Typhon], it’s further worth remembering that Set isn’t even the actual name he had back in the day. Set is taken from the Greek (i.e. where the stories of the mythical Typhon originated) “Seth”, which is itself a transliteration of Swth (which is now transliterated directly as “Sutekh” and was probably pronounced something like Soo-teh).

    Another little fun bit to add to the mix is that in classical myth Typhon was the child of Gaia intended to overthrow Zeus (a sky/storm god). There are also connections noted between Typhon and Python (another snake child of Gaia who lived underground).

    One oft overlooked part of mythical Set’s portfolio was storms (which in Egypt rolled in from the deserts). So, consider that the story of a storm god overcoming a dark serpent birthed by Gaia (grandmother of Zeus) may not have Zeus overcoming Typhon... but Set overcoming and diablerizing [Typhon], the childe of Enoia (who might have pulled off 2nd Gen status somehow and was already taking on the role of Gaia with all her Earthmelding).

    It doesn’t quite square with the likelihood that the Typhon who embraced Osiris was either [Brujah] or one of his childer, but it’s not like a name like Typhon (if the root being basically “Serpent of Darkness” is correct) would be uncommon for outsiders to attribute to an unknown powerful Kindred (basically, Typhon may not be a unique name, but akin to the title Baal).

    Serpents in myth are often associated with transformation and immortality (shedding their old skins and biting their own tails to create an endless loop) so “Typhon” as a generic title for “bringer of dark immortality/transformation” could explain a number of potential misattributions. They’re actually a number of different vampires, perhaps those known for rather prolific embracing (or the embracing of certain important people.

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  • Ravnos
    replied
    Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
    The Setite Clanbook 2nd ed (2001) does not go into this history much. No dates or much in the way of details. It does contain a few interesting facts:
    It is claimed that the First Citys name was Annu and that it was located where the outskirts of Cairo stand today. The Setites claim that Set became a vampire through the defeat of the entity/god called Apep, the Worm of Darkness and eating its heart. The Tlacique is a Setite bloodline so old its origin is lost. And the 9th level Serpentis power, Shadow of Apep, draws upon the power of the God/creature whose heart Set drank and turns the user into a giant serpent made of Obtenebration-darkness.

    Comments: The Tlacique, the oldest Setite bloodline, does not have Serpentis at all, they have Protean. That’s interesting. “Eating its heart” sounds suspiciously like drinking the hearts blood. And south of Egypt, south of Nubia, south even of their southern neighbor Punt (That was only located in December 2020), Becketts Jyhad Diary mentions Kindred with Obtenebration that does not seem connected to the Lasombra.
    I recall somewhere in the revised edition corebook that some Setites or some followers of the Path of the Typhon do know Obtenebration. It was written as if it was nothing very odd.
    One of the things that led me to believe that Disciplines weren't intended to be as much "clan exclusive" in 3rd edition at first. To be fair, discipline exclusiveness was cementified in earlier and also later books

    Something in my headcanon I always used to reconcile real world Set mythology with the WoD set (if that's really necessary) is that Set devouring Apep acquired the current weakness and the serpentis discipline and became altered in body and mind (he became eeeeevil). A hero fall from grace maybe?

    Never thought too much about the Tlacique but the implication might be that they're sort of the True Brujah for the Followers, the original clan that got abandoned after some diablerie shenanigans or the acquisition of some eldritch power (Serpentis 10) by good old Set.
    It would be a nod to real world too because snakes were never associated to Set, but a beast with various animals traits was

    Of course the easiest explanation is always that our real history isn't "real", because the history books were rewritten and manipulated (who said punic wars?)...
    But that's boring, isn't it?
    Serpent eldritch egyptian god coming from primordial darkness who may or may not have been a hero fallen from grace is way more interesting and cooler
    And the incosistencies with the real world clearly aren't a bad thing

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