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On the subject of the Second Inquisition & the masqurade

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  • #16
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    I mean, they're against a bunch of self-interested sociopathic parasites.
    Plus, flawed heroes are more interesting.

    Also, many of whom are the above themselves. After all, vampires are all blood junkies themselves.
    They also try to subvert local governments to their ends and bind it’s agents to them, so their people are government nutjobs.

    Besides, being a lunatic religious fanatic who believes in conspiracies is just describing someone who is RIGHT about the world.
    Cults of the Blood Gods also made it acceptable behavior for a non-trivial percentage of vampires.

    I mean, which is really more of a nutter? humans that worship the necessary First Cause of the universe as a benevolent being who wants you to spread love and forgiveness -or- a bunch of vampires worshipping their ancestors as gods who will arise to wash the world in blood?

    Likewise, as stated, if you believe in government and supernatural conspiracies, you’re right if you live in the World of Darkness (in Mage there are even abductions by umbrood in the guise of aliens where the gauntlet is thin).

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    • #17
      It is an unfortunate implication that the Deep State is real and is actually Left leaning progressive atheists.

      Just, you know, authoritarian fascists too.

      It makes me think the Far Right in the WoD has to be all Pentex and the Camarilla.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        It is an unfortunate implication that the Deep State is real and is actually Left leaning progressive atheists.

        Just, you know, authoritarian fascists too.

        It makes me think the Far Right in the WoD has to be all Pentex and the Camarilla.
        Actually they tried to make the Technocracy the Alt-Right a few years back in that Mage text game that was released alongside the even more cringy We Eat Blood VtM game.

        As I recall it was set in... Sweden I think, somewhere in Europe that was receiving a bunch of Middle Eastern refugees which the Technocracy was trying to stop because apparently non-white people are special or haven't had their Wonder crushed like White Europeans and Westerners have and can damage the local Paradigm they're trying to enforce. The amazing Double-Racism Combo of White People being Spiritually Damaged because of their culture while Non-White People are inherently special and spiritual because of their culture with cherry on top of the Technocracy being very blatantly the Alt-Right, never mind the YEARS of material to establish that the Technocracy would largely HATE those racist troglodytes.

        It was easily the dumbest way I've seen the Technocracy handled in an official WoD product. And I've read several of the early 1E books where they were treated in some truly bizarre and stupid ways.


        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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        • #19
          I actually asked my military player about Five Eyes about a year ago. This was what he said:

          Me: How functional really is Five Eyes, and how does that gel with the spies/military so absolutely hating to share intel?
          Someone cited them in an OPP thread on the Second Inquisition
          "I can buy different agencies cooperating because they already do that"

          Military Player: It's not functional
          Almost everything that matters is classified Secret/NF
          i.e.
          Secret/NO FOREIGN
          every now and then I'll see something cross my desk that's SECRET / REL TO, but it's usually crap
          Certain info is shared, but anything that could identify sources isn't. Nor anything that is sensitive.
          FIVEY is a resource for sharing broad ideas, but it's.... I don't know. A relic.
          cold war relic
          honestly, US resources are so much greater than everyone else, most of what we share is done to keep the ability to use their countries as operating bases.
          for reference, consider that most of the spying Snowden leaked and wikileaks leaked regarding us spying on foreign leaders and such would notionally be five eyes stuff in principle
          but in the 90s/00s it really fell off. You saw some reemergence with the war of terror, but not really.
          Honestly I don't delve too deeply, but my guess is it is mostly a mechanism to reveal by which you can find a way to transfer specific information other countries request, but they have to know what they're asking for to do that. Probably works to streamline approval process.


          Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
            It is an unfortunate implication that the Deep State is real and is actually Left leaning progressive atheists.

            Just, you know, authoritarian fascists too.

            It makes me think the Far Right in the WoD has to be all Pentex and the Camarilla.

            That is one of the problems with WoD. The game is centralized around Conspiracy Theories (supernatural ones, economic ones, political ones, cultural ones, etc). And sometimes those in-game conspiracy theories can overlap pretty heavily with real world ones since it's been about 30 years since the game came out. I mean look at Werewolf's 7th Generation a cult of child molesters who worked with vampires to attain political power and extended lifespans. That's uhhh... pretty much Pizzagate.

            Looking at these fictional conspiracy theories and then dropping them onto real-world ones is going to make things really awkward because while the conspiracy theories in WoD are all "fun and games" and exist there for the players to deal with or dismantle, real life conspiracy theories are most often delusional and people can end up hurt or killed because of them.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by AkatsukiLeader13 View Post

              Actually they tried to make the Technocracy the Alt-Right a few years back in that Mage text game that was released alongside the even more cringy We Eat Blood VtM game.

              As I recall it was set in... Sweden I think, somewhere in Europe that was receiving a bunch of Middle Eastern refugees which the Technocracy was trying to stop because apparently non-white people are special or haven't had their Wonder crushed like White Europeans and Westerners have and can damage the local Paradigm they're trying to enforce. The amazing Double-Racism Combo of White People being Spiritually Damaged because of their culture while Non-White People are inherently special and spiritual because of their culture with cherry on top of the Technocracy being very blatantly the Alt-Right, never mind the YEARS of material to establish that the Technocracy would largely HATE those racist troglodytes.

              It was easily the dumbest way I've seen the Technocracy handled in an official WoD product. And I've read several of the early 1E books where they were treated in some truly bizarre and stupid ways.
              Honestly, recent years HAVE kind of soured me on the Technocracy. If the secret masters of the Earth's governments really WERE a progressive pro-science group, totalitarian or not, then the world would be a very different place indeed.

              The secret masters of the Earth, whoever they be, DO NOT CARE in this universe and would not care in the WOD.

              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
              That is one of the problems with WoD. The game is centralized around Conspiracy Theories (supernatural ones, economic ones, political ones, cultural ones, etc). And sometimes those in-game conspiracy theories can overlap pretty heavily with real world ones since it's been about 30 years since the game came out. I mean look at Werewolf's 7th Generation a cult of child molesters who worked with vampires to attain political power and extended lifespans. That's uhhh... pretty much Pizzagate.
              To be fair, it's also Epstein.

              I had a conversation with Lindsay Ellis where she pointed out this very issue and enjoying the X-Files since Fox Mulder is basically no longer a guy to be considered humorous. I pointed out there were no end of conspiracies done by businesses, the government, mass surveillance, and abuses of power. It's just they didn't involve aliens or werewolves.

              A later conversation on reddit pointed out R/Conspiracy used to be "fun" with UFOs but now it was just Trumplandia and anti-vaccineworld.
              Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-23-2021, 02:00 AM.


              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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              • #22
                Bah, I knew this would happen
                "Most hunters are lunatics"
                "No, Hunters are part of extremeley dangerous...."

                Stop, you just look like you're beating your chest. The society of Leopold, though the model for effective vampire hunters, is still an absolute minority in the catholic system, and also the craziest group the catholics have. The OG inquisition had the full might of the church behind them and acted from a possition equal to the law, these guys still just have a few chapels, and even with increased funding they act from the position of 'terrorist'. The hunters in the FBI are not 'The FBI' with all the might they could have behind them, they're the fringe wackos with rebelious streaks.


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  Bah, I knew this would happen
                  "Most hunters are lunatics"
                  "No, Hunters are part of extremeley dangerous...."

                  Stop, you just look like you're beating your chest. The society of Leopold, though the model for effective vampire hunters, is still an absolute minority in the catholic system, and also the craziest group the catholics have. The OG inquisition had the full might of the church behind them and acted from a possition equal to the law, these guys still just have a few chapels, and even with increased funding they act from the position of 'terrorist'. The hunters in the FBI are not 'The FBI' with all the might they could have behind them, they're the fringe wackos with rebelious streaks.
                  Allow me to point out that you are again ignoring that the central enemy of vampires is....Hunters. Well other vampires then Hunters. Not werewolves, not mages, or demons.

                  Hunters.

                  Again, the game made it clear that the First Inquisition is what created the Camarilla.

                  And your argument is kind of weird here because you're saying. "The Society of Leopold is this tiny group and the Special Affairs Division is this other tiny group and none of them are really any real danger to the undead." Which is kind of a weird disengagement from the material. The whole point of the Second Inquisition is that the Society of Leopold, SAD, and other small groups of vampire hunters have either allied together or joined a larger group that is showering them with recruits and funding.

                  Even then, there's also a certain level of SCI FI WRITERS HAVE NO SENSE OF SCALE (see TVtropes.org).

                  There's probably 100,000 vampires of every single sect in the world, not counting Kuei-Jin, in the WOD.

                  Not even ten thousand for every Clan and the above includes Bloodlines, Caitiff, and maybe Thin Bloods (though their numbers are exploding).

                  Prior to the Second Inquisition, there's probably 2000 or so Society of Leopold members, including old priests, researchers, and nuns tending wounds. That's an infintissmal amount to the billion or so Catholics in the world.

                  However, 2000 Hunters actually poses a significant fucking threat to those 100K vampires if only for the fact they needed to be able to find them. Now these 2000 Hunters (which if they doubled or tripled in number is now a terrifying number--and that's on the conservative side) with access to all the money, weapons, and information the government has provided. Remember, the difference between the Frog Brothers and the Society of Leopold is the latter actually have training and knowledge of things of what will kill the undead as well as the basic strategy of, "Don't try and kill the undead during the night, stupid. Burn down their haven."

                  If they just killed a total of 1 vampire each (and they may have more but we're balancing hunters like Sullivan Dane who have killed hundreds vs. vampire hunters who die on their first hunt) then that would be 4-6% of all vampires everywhere.

                  That is a huge fucking number and a reason for vampires to suddenly go, "Holy shit. What is going on here?"

                  Maybe raise the number of missing vampires to 10% with the Beckoning, implosion of the Sabbat, and recent Civil Wars. What the Ancient Romans would call, "Decimation."
                  Last edited by CTPhipps; 02-23-2021, 04:15 AM.


                  Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Allow me to point out that you are again ignoring that the central enemy of vampires is....Hunters. Well other vampires then Hunters. Not werewolves, not mages, or demons.
                    Let me clear this up: vampires. The central enemy of vampires is vampires. Not hunters or werewolves or demons, vampires.

                    Again, the game made it clear that the First Inquisition is what created the Camarilla.
                    It did, and the first inquisition was feasible. The second isn't at face value. Two entirely different animals in entirely different contexts.


                    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                    There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                      I think none of that applies to vampires who, in fact if shot with enough bullets, will go down. Also, are completely immobile in the day. Not to mention have animal like panic attacks about fire or getting angry enough.

                      Basically, vampires are like Batman in Arkham Asylum not Superman.

                      Batman is awesome and can defeat an entire army IF HE'S CLEVER AND STEALTHY.

                      Running up and attacking the goons with guns will get them killed. Once exposed, he's probably dead.
                      Batman has a very specific modus operandi. No killing, no guns, he doesnt have potence or fortitude.

                      Good points about the daylight issues, but at night then, a group of vampires, with some training in combat, the right equipment and with the right discipline spread, are a nightmare to deal with in infantry situations in my opinion.

                      Also i am not a soldier nor do i have any military experience.But neither does Mr. Ennis.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by hachiman View Post

                        Batman has a very specific modus operandi. No killing, no guns, he doesnt have potence or fortitude.

                        Good points about the daylight issues, but at night then, a group of vampires, with some training in combat, the right equipment and with the right discipline spread, are a nightmare to deal with in infantry situations in my opinion.

                        Also i am not a soldier nor do i have any military experience.But neither does Mr. Ennis.
                        Oh this is true but that's why the Second Inquisition isn't an "I win" button and PCs are able to fight them. They're antagonists but it's not a case where vampires are hopelessly outmatched.

                        It's more, and I hate to use this overused metaphor, more like chess.

                        The SI made a lot of big bold moves but the Camarilla and Anarchs are in it for the long haul. Plenty of SI successes are because the vampires have OTHER vampires wanting to help them succeed (The Fall of London is in part because Mithras wants to purge its population and the Fall of Venice was because the Harbingers wanted to help) but it's a monster that can't really be controlled.


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #27
                          Honestly, pretending vampires are the biggest enemy of vampires is, to paraphrase MyWifeIsScary, comedically missing the point.

                          The biggest enemy of vampires has been the march of progress and, particularly, the surveillance state.

                          - Cameras everywhere (virtually everyone can stream video from a device they keep perpetually on their person) that make it harder to hunt unnoticed.

                          - The internet and digital records/banking makes it harder to hide your centuries old financal dealings.

                          - Newspapers scanning their old editorial into searchable databases make it easier to spot the patterns of predators in humanity’s midst, not to mention who knows when an old photo that would have once been lost in a dusty old archive of you from forty years ago looking just as you do now might surface?

                          - facial recognition programs, smart IDs and similar identity theft protection technologies making it harder for you to pass yourself off as someone else.

                          - every new tool Big Tech devises to make tracking you easier (so they can sell you things more easily or allow the government to tax you... California wanted cars whose movements could be tracked because they’re getting so fuel efficient that gas taxes aren’t bringing in enough revenue so they wanted to switch to a mileage tax).

                          - the COVID shutdowns and procedures seem tailor made to making vampire existence miserable; lockdowns of bars, nightclubs and other social gatherings where hunting is easiest, nighttime curfews keeping people off the streets at night, temperature scans to make sure you don’t have the virus before entering a building, etc. What good are feeding grounds with no one to feed on?

                          All of these forces are basically the equivalent of pressures encroaching civilization puts on all predators; forcing them into competition over dwindling safe resources so the weakest members have to into human populated areas to rummage through trash to avoid starvation and end up drawing attention and Animal Control to deal with them.

                          Hunters are the vampire equivalent of Animal Control. They generally aren’t targeting elders with secure domains and stable food supplies that don’t draw attention. They’re targeting the fledglings and neonates forced to hunt in ways that draw attention to themselves because all the prime hunting territory is claimed; the ones with maybe a half-dozen dots in disciplines and a decade of experience as a vampire if they’re lucky.

                          Elders only get roped in when the hunters notice the patterns of the weaker vampires; the way they avoid certain places where feeding would be easier. If all the bottom feeders you’re tracking stay out of the popular nightclub that’s nearby, odds are good some stronger vampire is using it as their feeding ground and it’s easy enough start surveiling the building using thermal cameras and, once you have a face, using all the normal procedures private investigators have these days to identify and track them without even leaving their office.

                          Modern civilization makes it so much harder to escape detection compared to the First Inquisition days that you don’t need the majority support of something like the Catholic Church to put serious dents in the Kindred populations, you just need a comparitve handful of people who aren’t idiots.

                          The fact that, once you’ve identified their haven, probably 80% of vampires can be dealt with using a crowbar, a 5 gallon can of gasoline and a match during daylight hours with zero risk is all that really needs be said.

                          Sure, there will be vampires that evade the purge when the really professional hunter organizations show up. That’s not the point. The point is unless you’re one of the ones well positioned enough to avoid it (i.e. NOT most PCs) then it’s going to press you to your wits’ end to make it through such a sweep.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            Honestly, recent years HAVE kind of soured me on the Technocracy. If the secret masters of the Earth's governments really WERE a progressive pro-science group, totalitarian or not, then the world would be a very different place indeed.

                            The secret masters of the Earth, whoever they be, DO NOT CARE in this universe and would not care in the WOD.
                            To be fair, one of things that's been present with the Technocracy and their efforts since Guide to the Technocracy is that the Masses are the Masses. They try to lead them down better paths only for Man's short-sighted irrationality to drive humanity down worse paths. Technocracy Reloaded starts with a Technocrat admitting that they have failed, that despite all the propaganda they spew, the Union is losing because of the irrationality of Humanity and the Technocracy's own arrogance.

                            And honestly given the growth of... well things like anti-vaxxers, flatearthers, the Alt-Right and Qanon, it's not hard to see the Technocracy becoming utterly frustrated at the Masses of today much less how much worse they could be in the WoD.

                            Which is actually pretty scary thing given how bad some of those people are in the real world.


                            Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
                              Honestly, pretending vampires are the biggest enemy of vampires is, to paraphrase MyWifeIsScary, comedically missing the point.

                              The biggest enemy of vampires has been the march of progress and, particularly, the surveillance state.
                              Bollocks to that. Fake news, CGI, deepfakes, clickbait, information overload; nobody's believing shit. The biggest threat to rich guys are other rich guys, and the same goes for vampires. Ten years from now, when we've all got convincing CGI software on our minature smartphones, who's going to believe in found-footage of a vampire attack? Also, it's not like we're going one-direction with the surveilance state. There's kickback and resistance and limitations to how much you can do. Unless you're in a few fascist states, you've really not got so much to worry about.

                              - facial recognition programs, smart IDs and similar identity theft protection technologies making it harder for you to pass yourself off as someone else.
                              Now, this one's worth adressing;

                              -Identity protection technologies haven't really come that far. Also, when you have money and vitae, it's not too difficult to get someone to fabricate new identities. It might get bad enough that you must do this in advance, but it won't get so bad that you can't do it.
                              -Facial recognition software can be fooled.
                              -Thaumaturges can very likely (almost certainly) develop countermeasures to tech based solutions.
                              -Vampires don't really use a lot of the stuff that gets surveyed personally. They don't need to go to the store and they aren't likely to catch a public plane. They can use proxies for near everything like banks and such.


                              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                              • #30
                                We'll find out soon what the new Brand Content people think. It was confirmed today on the WoD Discord that Second Inquisition is actively in development now. The first book from Modi's failed run to be confirmed to still be worked on.

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