On the subject of Criminal activities

[MyWifeIsScary]

There are two great problems with large scale gangs in that they're inherently very hostile when it comes to competition, and that they're very risk prone. Let's say you're a neonate and you want to create or take over a gang, potentially you're actively encroaching on another kindred's interests, either you're undermining a powerful kindred's rule by chipping away at his large gang or you're denying territory and such and setting yourself up to look like a threat.... That's messy. Two kindred can start investment firms or real estate companies and, although they are direct competitors, can barely get along, but they can't do that with criminal gangs. Gangs war with eachother. When you get seriously involved in gangs, you're pissing off everyone else who's seriously involved in gangs, and given that the powerful kindred will generally have significant sway with law enforcement.. that's a serious uphill battle you're getting involved in. Dabbling? That works for everyone, but making it your main thing? Suicidal, unless you're willing to suck up to someone with more sway.

[CTPhipps]

There are two great problems with large scale gangs in that they're inherently very hostile when it comes to competition, and that they're very risk prone. Let's say you're a neonate and you want to create or take over a gang, potentially you're actively encroaching on another kindred's interests, either you're undermining a powerful kindred's rule by chipping away at his large gang or you're denying territory and such and setting yourself up to look like a threat.... That's messy. Two kindred can start investment firms or real estate companies and, although they are direct competitors, can barely get along, but they can't do that with criminal gangs. Gangs war with eachother. When you get seriously involved in gangs, you're pissing off everyone else who's seriously involved in gangs, and given that the powerful kindred will generally have significant sway with law enforcement.. that's a serious uphill battle you're getting involved in. Dabbling? That works for everyone, but making it your main thing? Suicidal, unless you're willing to suck up to someone with more sway.

I think it's important to note that vampires will have an attraction to organized crime because they will want to have a monopoly on violence within the borders of their territory. Vampires DON'T like large international megacorporations or at least don't exert much influence through them because that's a worthless commodity for a creature that will very likely get on a plane or use a computer as a last resort. They like controlling things within the borders of a single city and may not leave said city for centuries. Thus control of its police and criminals is pretty much the nature of the beast with the breakdown of local media as an option to control being one of the reasosn for the Second Inquisition. Essentially, the vampire race became less and less able to rule areas within a bubble.

[AscentionTheMage]

The Ventrue who include Al Capone, Kevin Jackson, numerous other criminals in 1st Edition and other setting books?

What's undignified about controlling the city's illegitimate trades?

All Ventrue are murderous parasites after all. The question is how much influence they can assert.

The WoD mafia sourcebook specificly sites the ventrue as the major sponsers of what would become the omerta

[CTPhipps]

Mind you, I did like the fact the Giovanni pretty much had the exact attitude that MyWifeIsScary has.

"Why would we care about the mafia when they're a multi-million dollar enterprise and we're a multi-billion dollar enterprise?"

It's just that I think that the Ventrue are going to be a much more thorough mix of things than the Giovanni who are forbidden from taking part in the Jyhad. The instability of criminal activities works in the favor of the undead because it means that you can acquire and discard pawns at will. There's also always going to be the benefit of the fact that it is a place to make your seed money for eventually moving into more legitimate enterprises.

Do I see a 6th generation, 900 year old Ventrue ruling over the local criminals in Paris? No.

A 12th generation, few decades dead, mafioso based on Tony Soprano in New Jersey? Yes.

[MyWifeIsScary]

The WoD mafia sourcebook specificly sites the ventrue as the major sponsers of what would become the omerta

Aye and Rockefella gave away money to charity while being a business darwinist; It's not something that's really evidence to the idea that upstanding vampires control criminal organizations. They're just occasional patrons. , like politics and the police and corperations and such, vampires shouldn't try to directly control criminal organizations, puppets included, they should just guide these organizations or better yet, pay money to these organizations for goods and services. A vampire shouldn't control -Gang B- he should be a customer of Gang B.

[Lian]

I think you are looking at this in reverse. The camarilla generally engages in organized crime as TOOL to get things done. Its just another aspect of mortal society to be swayed to keep the masquerade attack ones foes... its all just another layer of control nothing special.

[CTPhipps]

Aye and Rockefella gave away money to charity while being a business darwinist; It's not something that's really evidence to the idea that upstanding vampires control criminal organizations. They're just occasional patrons. , like politics and the police and corperations and such, vampires shouldn't try to directly control criminal organizations, puppets included, they should just guide these organizations or better yet, pay money to these organizations for goods and services. A vampire shouldn't control -Gang B- he should be a customer of Gang B.

Not every Ventrue is a Ballard.

Some Ventrue are Schumpeters.

[MyWifeIsScary]

I feel the OP is too militant about the whole thing. That might work very well in some games (particularly anarch games) but it doesn't really capture 'vampire' all that well. I'll confess I fell into the trap of wanting to play a 'mafia' type vampire; vampires are already criminals by nature of what they do to survive, it's not a great stretch to play a mobster with that in mind, but when I think back to it I feel it was a little juvenile.

-As vampires, you're probably regularly donating to a few key figures among the police. Paying off a specific officer would be less common than threatening to 'withdraw support if you they don't do what they're told'. Vampires basically dictate who's who in local elections; the sherrif, the mayor, the lead prosecutor, the mortitian in some constituencies... Most people don't bother to vote on that kind of thing, and so vampires have a lot of sway over who's who, if not being capable of controling the votes then they can at least control campaigns. If you want to call a raid or get the police to leave a property or suspect alone, it's not so difficult. Ya just need to remember to get that dot of influence.

-For decently rich vampires (3+) Firearms, legal or not, aren't terribly expensive in most parts of the world. something serious like a machinegun is too high profile in any urban context. For most places you won't need firearms for more than intimidation, and in a lot of contexts it's better for you to just form machete gangs or wrecking crews with 'cheap' tools from a hardware store. Guns are really, really, really fucking loud. Unless you're using a subsonic .22, putting a supressor on the end of the gun just downgrades it from 'literally deafening' to 'not immediately deafening but still terrifying loud'

-Criminals using armoured cars are really not something police can ignore. That's when you step up from 'criminals' to 'terrorists' and then reach 'military force' . Like the old GTA's, they'll send in the army eventually.

[Lian]

-For decently rich vampires (3+) Firearms, legal or not, aren't terribly expensive in most parts of the world. something serious like a machinegun is too high profile in any urban context. For most places you won't need firearms for more than intimidation, and in a lot of contexts it's better for you to just form machete gangs or wrecking crews with 'cheap' tools from a hardware store. Guns are really, really, really fucking loud. Unless you're using a subsonic .22, putting a supressor on the end of the gun just downgrades it from 'literally deafening' to 'not immediately deafening but still terrifying loud'.

Guns also don't do much with that dot of potence your ghouls get. I mean there's a reason Kindred like to go melee.