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  • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    To be fair, all the Ravnos I know are either Gambit or a bellydancer.

    My players are not imaginative.

    the few I see are now Loki or Coyote.... I kinda wanted them to lean into that Trickster asshole vibe...
    Last edited by Taggie; 03-13-2021, 07:27 PM.

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    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
      The few I see are now Loki or Coyote.... I kinda wanted them to lean into that Trickster asshole vibe...
      It's kind of awkward because my Anarch Trickster illusionist was a Malkavian.

      He just had Dementation instead of Chimestry.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • I've never seen the Ravnos archetype as likeable. They're generally charming, which is not the same thing, though it can have superficially similar effects on the people the charm is being used on. Onlookers who aren't the Ravnos' marks can definitely see the difference, though, and think less of both parties because of it.

        Should I get involved in a V5 ancillae-level game, the default character I'm bringing to the table is a Ravnos antitribu lupine hunter who makes the new clan weakness work with her vocation.

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        • I think v5 ravnos are a functional bloodline. But they arent the Ravnos, and I like the Ravnos.

          Obfuscate/Presence is seemingly the go to for the corruptors: setited, baali,a certain african lasombra bloodline. The Ravnos aren't them. The Ravnos arent 'corruptors' who cater to others: their whole shtick was having thick skin and a very self driven, defiant ethos.

          Presence is a discipline for the supremely likeable. Sure, we may resent the idea of the pompous Ventrue, the bitchy Toreador, The crude Brujah, or the... Settite oil sailsman, but when you actually meet these vampires, they're almost always immensely likeable or otherwise impressively magnetic.
          Just decieving people is not providence for in-clan Presence. You need special power, and the Ravnos have always been adverse to tying themselves to so many mortals for reasons of their curse and for their "religion" (path of Paradox says dont try Humanity.)


          Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
          There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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          • Chimestry has always been about 'physical' illususions (made from an illusory substance) whilst obfuscate has been about mental tricks. This had a profound impact on their worldview and their perception of reality.

            The ravnos have always had this amazing spiral of - Compelled to do something bad > self loathing and jealousy> develop an ideology about how you're really fulfilling your unlife's purpose and how really humane vampires are just pieces of shit denying the reality they should be finding themselves in > Do bad things on your own accord.

            But they also had this idea that, outside of fulfilling their own "purpose" they shouldnt be fucking with the destiny of mortals all that much. So Presence isn't really appropriate for them. Thus Animalism and Fortitude were really perfect for them; Animals not really having significant destinies makes them ok to manipulate on the regular and providing the lonely Ravnos comfort is very much beneficial, whilst Fortitude is... just the most obvious choice for someone who's living a hard life and constantly threatened with retribution.

            They're just far more interesting and well developed pre-v5 than post. Were it not for the unfortunate elephant-flaw of the gypsie baggage, there would be considerable outrage concerning the clan's replacement.


            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              Chimestry has always been about 'physical' illususions (made from an illusory substance) whilst obfuscate has been about mental tricks. This had a profound impact on their worldview and their perception of reality.

              The ravnos have always had this amazing spiral of - Compelled to do something bad > self loathing and jealousy> develop an ideology about how you're really fulfilling your unlife's purpose and how really humane vampires are just pieces of shit denying the reality they should be finding themselves in > Do bad things on your own accord.

              But they also had this idea that, outside of fulfilling their own "purpose" they shouldnt be fucking with the destiny of mortals all that much. So Presence isn't really appropriate for them. Thus Animalism and Fortitude were really perfect for them; Animals not really having significant destinies makes them ok to manipulate on the regular and providing the lonely Ravnos comfort is very much beneficial, whilst Fortitude is... just the most obvious choice for someone who's living a hard life and constantly threatened with retribution.

              They're just far more interesting and well developed pre-v5 than post. Were it not for the unfortunate elephant-flaw of the gypsie baggage, there would be considerable outrage concerning the clan's replacement.

              I agree. It is very clear that the only reason we see Presence here is because of the amalgam rules, and the fact that they couldn't find a way to combine their old disciplines to create the effects of Chimerstry. I think that in my games I will replace the requirement for Presence with Fortitude. In V5 Fortitude also makes the mind stronger and thus you know how to exploit the weakness in others, as you combine it with Obfuscate. Strong unnatural will and the ability to hide reality.

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              • There is also the game design perspective to consider. I think it's pretty obvious that the original 13 clans were assigned clan disciplines with maximum variety in mind, in addition to the usual considerations for what best supported the clan concepts. When you look at the disciplines shared between clans in 1st and 2nd Edition (ignoring proprietary disciplines), the following pattern emerges:

                4 clans share Animalism
                4 clans share Auspex
                3 clans share Celerity
                5 clans share Dominate
                3 clans share Fortitude
                4 clans share Obfuscate
                4 clans share Potence
                4 clans share Presence

                You can immediately see why Revised Edition chose to replace Dominate with Dementation for Malkavians, "fixing" the spreads so that only 4 clans share Dominate between them. When 4 is the maximum number of times a discipline is allowed to be shared between the clans, the result is a pretty even spread of disciplines among the various character options.

                I don't think the current crop of designers care as much about this kind of parity between the disciplines, which is why the V5 discipline spreads look a little more lopsided -- five clans share Dominate, Obfuscate, and Presence now. On the plus side, the drastically reduced number of proprietary disciplines means that Protean, for example, is shared by 3 clans, making it on par with Celerity and Potence in V5.

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                • Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                  There is also the game design perspective to consider. I think it's pretty obvious that the original 13 clans were assigned clan disciplines with maximum variety in mind, in addition to the usual considerations for what best supported the clan concepts. When you look at the disciplines shared between clans in 1st and 2nd Edition (ignoring proprietary disciplines), the following pattern emerges:

                  4 clans share Animalism
                  4 clans share Auspex
                  3 clans share Celerity
                  5 clans share Dominate
                  3 clans share Fortitude
                  4 clans share Obfuscate
                  4 clans share Potence
                  4 clans share Presence

                  You can immediately see why Revised Edition chose to replace Dominate with Dementation for Malkavians, "fixing" the spreads so that only 4 clans share Dominate between them. When 4 is the maximum number of times a discipline is allowed to be shared between the clans, the result is a pretty even spread of disciplines among the various character options.

                  I don't think the current crop of designers care as much about this kind of parity between the disciplines, which is why the V5 discipline spreads look a little more lopsided -- five clans share Dominate, Obfuscate, and Presence now. On the plus side, the drastically reduced number of proprietary disciplines means that Protean, for example, is shared by 3 clans, making it on par with Celerity and Potence in V5.
                  while that might be the case it doesn't really excuse things as they are in V5 because you can still do all that without amalgams. and even with amalgams some decisions still don't really work (like dominate on tzimisce or presence on ravnos)
                  Last edited by archderd; 03-15-2021, 09:35 AM.

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                  • Originally posted by archderd View Post


                    while that might be the case it doesn't really excuse things as they are in V5 because you can still do all that without amalgams. and even with amalgams some decisions still don't really work (like dominate on tzimisce or presence on ravnos)
                    But I think that back in the day we had this bloodline Old Clan Tzimisce that had Auspex, Animalism, Dominate. No? they were like against the cult of Metamorphosis or something like that.
                    It feels like they tried to combine the two aspects of the clan.

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                    • Originally posted by Godforsaken View Post

                      But I think that back in the day we had this bloodline Old Clan Tzimisce that had Auspex, Animalism, Dominate. No? they were like against the cult of Metamorphosis or something like that.
                      It feels like they tried to combine the two aspects of the clan.
                      that's absolutely right but there was alot of flavor in the tzimisce that was lost by giving dominate to the base clan and even then dominate always felt like a filler discipline for the old clan who themselves were a bloodline that existed purely because they wanted tzimisce to be playable for ppl that didn't want to use visisitude (which isn't an issue in V5).

                      i get what they were trying to do, i'm not claiming there was no thought put behind the decision, i'm saying they could've done alot better then what they choose to do.

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                      • Originally posted by Godforsaken View Post

                        But I think that back in the day we had this bloodline Old Clan Tzimisce that had Auspex, Animalism, Dominate. No? they were like against the cult of Metamorphosis or something like that.
                        It feels like they tried to combine the two aspects of the clan.
                        Replacing Auspex with Dominate because a small faction had Dominate instead of Vicissitude isn’t a great argument. It’s like if they had the entire Ministry replacing Presence with Potence because Warrior Setites had Potence instead of Obfuscate.

                        The whole Alamgam thing stems from wanting to homogenize Discipline content while trying to retain “clan flavor.” But it feels forced, like lore is being replaced by extraneous rules. Makes V:tM feel more theme park video game, less sandbox RPG.

                        Imagine being forced to learn Dominate 2 (or literally any other Discipline for that matter) before you can get started on your Vicissitude career. That would be silly.
                        Last edited by Garygeneric; 03-15-2021, 11:00 AM.

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                        • I think the problem with amalgams is that some Disciplines are round pegs being forced into two completely separate square holes. And in the end, because you can't purchase multiple powers of the same level, they end up being truncated versions of the old Disciplines anyway... So why not just have the old Disciplines to keep it simple?

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                          • Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                            And in the end, because you can't purchase multiple powers of the same level, they end up being truncated versions of the old Disciplines anyway... So why not just have the old Disciplines to keep it simple?
                            That's really the crux of the issue. I never found the additional disciplines in the various supplements to be a problem, but there is an argument to be made for maintaining a small and coherent set of vampiric powers in a new edition of the game. Pick one approach or the other, though -- the current amalgam approach wants to have it both ways without really satisfying anyone.

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                            • Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                              There is also the game design perspective to consider. I think it's pretty obvious that the original 13 clans were assigned clan disciplines with maximum variety in mind, in addition to the usual considerations for what best supported the clan concepts. When you look at the disciplines shared between clans in 1st and 2nd Edition (ignoring proprietary disciplines), the following pattern emerges:
                              It is? I thought they were just going for archtypes; Liberal elite, Big-business elite, Country guy, Rabble rouser, Fixer, new-money professionals, and the Malkavians who belong as part of this but I can't quite articulate how. The Lasombra came in as psycho professionals, the Tzmisce as an archaic gentry/nobility, the Setites for cults, the assamites as assassins, and the giovanni came in to play happy family. The first seven clans were, quite smartly, very much -universal-, whilst the latter clans have a bit too much cultural baggage. Still, the clans felt like they were trying to encapsulate -types of people- and clan-as-archtype seems more prominent than -clans as character classes... maybe they just did well, but I never came to the thought that they were actively trying to balance how many clans had what discipline.


                              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                              • Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
                                That's really the crux of the issue. I never found the additional disciplines in the various supplements to be a problem, but there is an argument to be made for maintaining a small and coherent set of vampiric powers in a new edition of the game. Pick one approach or the other, though -- the current amalgam approach wants to have it both ways without really satisfying anyone.
                                i think it could've worked to have a smaller discipline set and still have clan specific abilities, it's just amalgams are a terrible system for clan abilities.

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