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  • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    I'm not exactly sure which families/bloodlines/factions go where. Though I think it's an interesting question. Any ideas on that, MWIS?
    The thing with the families is that they're big and they've intermaried and such and there's -main families- and -branch families- and stuff like that. A lot of dramas are big on dynastic conflicts, and it's likely one branch of the family will go one way an off-shoot cousin will go another way just to escape the control; Your uncle becomes your worst enemy and your cousin wants to kill you. Thus we're likely to have people surnamed Giovanni in all sects. We're also likely to have people declare new families once the Giovanni overlords are beheaded. It'll all be very game-of-thrones in terms of -my little brother wants to kill me, my sister is married to my enemy and I've married his cousin, we both have sisters married into family X and we both want to forge ties with family Y and... The messier, the better.


    The Ventrue will certainly pull one (I think they already have in v20). The Nosferatu are likely to pull another. The Tremere will try. I think it's likely that very powerful elders and a few princes will sponsor families. I feel the Nosferatu would be the biggest beneficiaries to the whole thing; only thing more distasteful than a bloated corpse is a man who enjoys fucking bloated corpses; they're just distasteful. The Toreador will hate them. Necromancers and Nosferatu make natural allies, especially with all the incestual family shenanigans they got going on allowing for good business (and the Samedi also being cursed like the Nos)


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    • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      Yes, that is my issue with the Hecata as well. I guess you could say that my issue with the Hecata is that they exist, that is a pretty big issue
      If you're going to say something like that, please say why.

      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Most 'intelectual' clans have Auspex. (Clans that are 'intelectual' that don't have Auspex generally have obfuscate)
      and again, Dracula is a Tzmisce (Formerly a Basarab revenant; they have Dominate, Protean and Vicissitude), but Tzmisce aren't Dracula.

      Dominate is just redundant when you have Animalism and Vicissitude. Protean is redundant when you have Vicissitude and Auspex.
      That's probably why they ended up combining so many Disciplines. Vicissitude, Serpentis, and Protean are all variants of the same thing.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
        That's probably why they ended up combining so many Disciplines. Vicissitude, Serpentis, and Protean are all variants of the same thing.
        Somewhat of a side tangent, I admit, but I’m not sure combining those Disciplines was the best idea. By their logic, they could combine Animalism, Dominate and Obfuscate into a “mental trickery” Discipline. Fortitude and Potence into a “body power” Discipline. Etc.

        I feel that Vicissitude and Protean are unique and interesting enough individually without forcing an “either/or” decision on players.

        Sometimes less is more, but sometimes more is more, too.

        But anyways...

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        • Originally posted by Garygeneric View Post

          Somewhat of a side tangent, I admit, but I’m not sure combining those Disciplines was the best idea. By their logic, they could combine Animalism, Dominate and Obfuscate into a “mental trickery” Discipline. Fortitude and Potence into a “body power” Discipline. Etc.

          I feel that Vicissitude and Protean are unique and interesting enough individually without forcing an “either/or” decision on players.

          Sometimes less is more, but sometimes more is more, too.

          But anyways...
          I dunno, the thing about Vicissitude is that it always felt like two powers. You have "Change Yourself" and you have "Change Others" which I feel like should have been a much higher level or a separate discipline or Path of Thaumaturgy.

          But I do think the biggest problem is that V5 rules nerf the benefits of this.

          If I could change any rule in V5, it would be limiting the number of Discipline levels you can buy at any given level. A guy with Protean 3 should be able to buy as many Protean 3/Vicissitude/Serpebntis powers as he wants.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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          • Serpentis was always low-key Protean. As is Thanatosis and Visceraticka and probably most inceptor disciplines; Protean's whole deal was how.... protean it is; it changes fast and frequently. Even if you were a gangrel, you could get different powers of the same level, for example they've always had plenty of options for level 2 power: Claws, fins, tusks. Protean has always been described as something very personal, you're basically asking the beast to manifest physical changes, like a short term formor.
            Viscissitude was never Protean. It has some superficial similarities with the 4th and 5th power, but fundamentally, it's a different kettle of fish. You're scultping, and the changes you make are permanent changes to the physical form.

            30 clear and concise disciplines are just better than 10 messy disciplines that have as many powers as 30 disciplines for hundreds of potential combinations. Mergers for the sake of mergers are stupid.

            As a storyteller, it's really helpful to compartmentalize things. I can remember most of the v20 mechanics of the common disciplines without looking at the book, plus a few rare ones; I know what I need to know and what I don't need to know. With V5, that's hopeless, maybe I can try to remember what my coterie has, but no more than that, and I'll have to string it out of them which powers they selected...
            Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 03-08-2021, 02:54 PM.


            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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            • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              Viscissitude was never Protean. It has some superficial similarities with the 4th and 5th power, but fundamentally, it's a different kettle of fish. You're scultping, and the changes you make are permanent changes to the physical form.
              This is how I see it. As diverse as Protean changes are, they are still usually static. Barring rare merits, your eyes glow the same red, your wolf form is the same every time you shift, and you eventually have to power off and revert to your “natural” undead form.

              Vicissitude is a different ball of soft, melted pink wax. The changes permanently alter one’s Pattern unless the strength of more powerful blood can “heal” it. If it absolutely needed to be rewritten, it makes much more sense as Blood Sorcery. This not only keeps the Protean waters clear but keeps Tzimisce as a “learned clan.”

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              • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                The thing with the families is that they're big and they've intermaried and such and there's -main families- and -branch families- and stuff like that. A lot of dramas are big on dynastic conflicts, and it's likely one branch of the family will go one way an off-shoot cousin will go another way just to escape the control; Your uncle becomes your worst enemy and your cousin wants to kill you. Thus we're likely to have people surnamed Giovanni in all sects. We're also likely to have people declare new families once the Giovanni overlords are beheaded. It'll all be very game-of-thrones in terms of -my little brother wants to kill me, my sister is married to my enemy and I've married his cousin, we both have sisters married into family X and we both want to forge ties with family Y and... The messier, the better.


                The Ventrue will certainly pull one (I think they already have in v20). The Nosferatu are likely to pull another. The Tremere will try. I think it's likely that very powerful elders and a few princes will sponsor families. I feel the Nosferatu would be the biggest beneficiaries to the whole thing; only thing more distasteful than a bloated corpse is a man who enjoys fucking bloated corpses; they're just distasteful. The Toreador will hate them. Necromancers and Nosferatu make natural allies, especially with all the incestual family shenanigans they got going on allowing for good business (and the Samedi also being cursed like the Nos)
                I imagine that if another family breaks off and becomes enemies with the official Giovanni family, that a lot of people with the last name of Giovanni would change it. Kind of like how the royal family of Great Britain changed from the House of Saxe-Coberg and Gotha to the House of Windsor during World War One.

                If the high ups in among the Giovanni are killed, I have trouble imaging the survivors bending the knee to the people who killed them. It seems like that would become an irreconcilable rift within what would become the Hecata.

                It's also a bit challenging to say who joins the Sabbat when we don't know much about the Sabbat. Would the Harbringers stay in the Sabbat? It doesn't seem like they would be that invested in the Sabbat or their war at this point, not that they were necessarily that invested to start with. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Harbringers might go Camarilla. As per V20 Ghouls book, the Rosselini are a Revenant family in addition to a Giovanni sub-family. It might be interesting to see them do something. It seems like maybe the Gorgons/Lamia might go Sabbat, they are a Lilith cult I recall and that kind of thing always tends towards Sabbat.

                Weird idea: What if Cappadocius wanted the Harbringers to be the ones who survived, it was the other Cappadocians who were unfit who would die at the hands of the Giovanni? Which could be why the Harbringers are now called the Harbringers of Ashur.

                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                If you're going to say something like that, please say why.
                Well, saying that they shouldn't exist sounds harsh. But the Hecata are a collection of bloodlines in a single organization. To say that this organization shouldn't exist and that the bloodlines should be in different organizations is the same as saying that the Hecata shouldn't exist.

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                • Splitting up the corpse-fuckers also does a great job in legitimizing a -your guys here- kinda thing; When you get your former-giovanni to the table, you can create a household behind them with a history, a speciality or philosophy, a business interest, how they approached the coup, how they got into the city they're in now... a player can do creative things with background points, merits and flaws.. and a storyteller can ensure it's very interesting. It's so much easier getting into the character of a -family man- when you've got a good amount of say in how that family is.


                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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                  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Splitting up the corpse-fuckers also does a great job in legitimizing a -your guys here- kinda thing; When you get your former-giovanni to the table, you can create a household behind them with a history, a speciality or philosophy, a business interest, how they approached the coup, how they got into the city they're in now... a player can do creative things with background points, merits and flaws.. and a storyteller can ensure it's very interesting. It's so much easier getting into the character of a -family man- when you've got a good amount of say in how that family is.
                    Yes, I agree. The Hecata as a single independent organization might make for an interesting Necromancer game: one person is a Samedi, another is a Giovanni, one is a Cappadocians, etc. But for most chronicles, the other characters will be form other Clans in one of the major sects. The Hecata sort of makes any Necromancer an odd man out in a game focused on characters from one of the major Sects.

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                    • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                      Yes, I agree. The Hecata as a single independent organization might make for an interesting Necromancer game: one person is a Samedi, another is a Giovanni, one is a Cappadocians, etc. But for most chronicles, the other characters will be form other Clans in one of the major sects. The Hecata sort of makes any Necromancer an odd man out in a game focused on characters from one of the major Sects.
                      Eh, Blood Cults show dual citizenship is very popular. Plenty of Church of Caine and Mithras Camarilla or Anarch members.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • If you can pull yourself past the hopelessly edgy intro, I'm sure it does, but players storytellers generally prefer -naturally belongs, no justification needed- to -weird outsider, justification to be here isn't difficult but it is absolutely necessary to go through the trouble-


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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                        • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                          If I could change any rule in V5, it would be limiting the number of Discipline levels you can buy at any given level. A guy with Protean 3 should be able to buy as many Protean 3/Vicissitude/Serpebntis powers as he wants.
                          There are hints that such may be possible. In addition to language such as "Vampire characters normally have an equal number of dots and powers in a Discipline...", there's that Descendant of Montano loresheet that lets Lasombra temporarily use an Oblivion power they don't know at or below their rating in the discipline. The text implies that Montano himself likely knows how to use ALL Oblivion powers at will. It might be tied to Blood Potency rather than just being open season on all the powers you want, but that actually works to make the elders comparatively more impressive, a complaint many people have had about the new edition.

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                          • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                            Yes, I agree. The Hecata as a single independent organization might make for an interesting Necromancer game: one person is a Samedi, another is a Giovanni, one is a Cappadocians, etc. But for most chronicles, the other characters will be form other Clans in one of the major sects. The Hecata sort of makes any Necromancer an odd man out in a game focused on characters from one of the major Sects.
                            This isn't that different from previous editions, Dark Ages aside. Giovanni have always been their own sect and tighter than the Tremere. The Harbingers joined the Sabbat first, which isn't supported yet anyway. Some Samedi explicitly stayed out of the Hecata sect and associate with the Ministry, so they're pretty much Anarchs. The rest are so uncommon that they're unusual anywhere. Although there are those characters like Dr. Banerjee in Fall of London, who are Hecata, without any clear ties to a bloodline or explanation for existing in spite of the Giovanni.

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                            • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                              Weird idea: What if Cappadocius wanted the Harbringers to be the ones who survived, it was the other Cappadocians who were unfit who would die at the hands of the Giovanni? Which could be why the Harbringers are now called the Harbringers of Ashur.
                              I had the same thought too so I don't think it's weird! Furthermore, it isn't even necessary for all those entombed during the Feast of Folly to be the grouped that is saved. Cappadocious asked a lot of questions. So he might have determined that so many were going to be destroyed, and a certain group that fit a profile to be lead into a secret cavern that was going to protect them while all the others frenzied from their Hunger. I don't believe people can predict the future with clarity, but it's possible Cappadocious knew something was going to happen by that time and wanted a select group kept safe. But he hid his intent by masking a series of questions that hid his attempt to do so.

                              = = =

                              As for Giovanni who join certain sects, I think it is definitely possible. In the old setting it was simply a matter of whether the new sect was willing to protect their new members from the inevitable retaliation. I think the Milliners would be the most likely to defect from the Camarilla. They were embraced quite late and have only tangential reasons to support Augustus's plan; have their own goals, and they are chafing from Giovanni control over them. If they felt that a sufficiently powerful Justicar could protect them combined with their own knowledge, I think they could defect in the hope they would prosper more. I think any of the other minor families embraced quite late (and almost all non-Italian) -and thus have weak ties to the Giovanni family - could join them if they saw the benefit in doing so.

                              The Pisanob are probably the ones most likely to defect to the Sabbat. They already exist in a Sabbat stronghold and likely have dealings with them. Furthermore, the Sabbat have already demonstrated the ability to protect the Serpents of the Light from the Setities. So I think if they wanted to, they could. But for now they likely don't see a reason unless the Giovanni tried to impose greater control over them. Another possible candidate might be the Dunsirn who seem to be long lost kinfolk to the White Howlers, and thus have distant relations to the Black Spiral Dancers, and the Dancers have ties to the Sabbat. If the Dancers reestablished contact, the Dunsirn might see advantages working with them instead. However, they are in an exposed geographic location - close to the Giovanni center of power, and surrounded by the Camarilla. They would risk losing a lot by an open defection. But it is possible for them to deal extensively with the Sabbat and BSDs on the down low while keeping a public image of loyalty to the Giovanni.

                              I would consider most of the Italian/Mediterranean families of the Giovanni to be so closely connected to them, that they are essentially part of the same faction and would remain loyal.

                              I always thought the Independent Clans were supposed to be few in number - nowhere near like the Camarilla clans or the Sabbat. And the Giovanni in particular were very small. I know many people did not hold the same opinion and had a very large clan that equivalent or near equivalent to the Camarilla clans (or at least their small members like Malkavian or Tremere). But for my own chronicles I came up with a list of maybe a dozen cities where the Giovanni were prominent enough that they had equal proportions in the domain as any other clan, and another dozen cities where they had a few members. So their worldwide population in my chronicles were between 100-200. So while such defectors might impact a significant proportion of the clan, each sect would only grow by only a few dozen members at best (your chronicles might be different). So it might not be worth it to them to alienate the Giovanni (the Serpents of Light are also few in number, but they cemented Sabbat power in Haiti and more importantly the Sabbat had likely already designated the Antedeluvian loving Setites as a future enemy).

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                              • Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                                Yes, I agree. The Hecata as a single independent organization might make for an interesting Necromancer game: one person is a Samedi, another is a Giovanni, one is a Cappadocians, etc. But for most chronicles, the other characters will be form other Clans in one of the major sects. The Hecata sort of makes any Necromancer an odd man out in a game focused on characters from one of the major Sects.
                                I do think there is something good to say about recognizing all the Cappadocian bloodlines as a single clan again. I liked that in the original game, it was a mystery to be worked out as Gehenna approached. But at this point, we can all admit that Giovanni, Samedi, Harbingers, and a few more are all Cappadocians (or whatever new name you want to give them). But there was no reason for the Nagaraja to be part of that group.

                                Furthermore, simply recognizing these groups as part of the same clan does not mean all members of the clan are politically together. What makes sense would be 1) the core Giovanni to remain independent, 2) the more humane Cappadocian survivors to join the Camarilla, and 3) the more monstrous or inhuman Path Cappadocian survivors that couldn't fit in with Humanity-Masquerade loving Camarilla would go to the Sabbat.

                                I was never a big fan of the Harbingers being members of the Sabbat. They suddenly appeared - along with others - as Sabbat simply to give that sect a big boost to make them even more of a threat in a scenario where Gehenna has started. As such, they had weak IC motivations. It was all OOC scripting reasons. (Same thing with the Salubri anti-tribu's membership. - "I thirst for unholy vengeance against those who persecuted me for centuries!" "Dude, weren't you just embraced like 3 days ago? And the Sabbat has Tremere too and all the Sabbat clans likewise left you to die.") The Cappadocians were known for their alliance with the Ventrue, and weren't particularly inhumane. And there was a decent chance that some of the Harbingers could still claim some sort of friendship, perhaps even boons, among very old Camarilla elders from the time before they disappeared. That doesn't mean there is not an argument for the Sabbat. But clearly there should have been division among them. Splitting up the Harbingers makes better sense.

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