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  • #16
    Apparently I am extremely out of practice with traditional forums, because I wrote two much more in-depth (longwinded) replies and lost both of them trying to format. So now you get the flip answer: You wouldn't write a VTM TV show for VTM fans. You have to write it for the people who watched eight seasons of Game of Thrones and thought Danaerys' name was Kahleesi. They are not going to care about any lore that doesn't directly advance the plot and if you throw too much in you'll turn them off. And if you take away the lore, VTM is just the setting of Blade without Blade. And no producer's gonna jump at that.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Ventrue Busboy View Post
      Apparently I am extremely out of practice with traditional forums, because I wrote two much more in-depth (longwinded) replies and lost both of them trying to format. So now you get the flip answer: You wouldn't write a VTM TV show for VTM fans. You have to write it for the people who watched eight seasons of Game of Thrones and thought Danaerys' name was Kahleesi. They are not going to care about any lore that doesn't directly advance the plot and if you throw too much in you'll turn them off. And if you take away the lore, VTM is just the setting of Blade without Blade. And no producer's gonna jump at that.
      The Vampires Diaries more of less proves that a love triangle and attractive actors over ride any concerns as far as lore, action, or good writing. But that means if you don't hit the nail on the head to perfectly capture the young adult market, you have to set your series apart from the others, which while it makes you stand out, it alienates most mundanes and non-fans.

      Though to be honest its not like the any V:tM series would be able to stay true to the source material for very long, if than for no other reason than that much of the history of the V:tM game narrative was based on the idea of being transgressive. Back in the 90s when V:tM was getting started, vampire clubs, the idea of being the monster rather than the hero, the notion of enjoying being the monster rather than seeking redemption, etc. was all transgressive. Now all of that is old hat.

      In the current world being "transgressive" has one of two outcomes, you either pander to certain concepts of gender and identity to promote a message (Witcher tv series bad guy armor) or you are transgressive by showing the depths of depravity to give context. Both outcomes tend to produce a lot of push back.

      To put it another way a V:tM series would have to be able to show each clan equally, rather than just selecting some clans for being the "good or bad" ones. I just don't see the public reacting well to a series where a Tzimisce looks at a movie like the Human Centipede and says something akin to "hold my beer".

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Ventrue Busboy View Post
        Apparently I am extremely out of practice with traditional forums, because I wrote two much more in-depth (longwinded) replies and lost both of them trying to format. So now you get the flip answer: You wouldn't write a VTM TV show for VTM fans. You have to write it for the people who watched eight seasons of Game of Thrones and thought Danaerys' name was Kahleesi. They are not going to care about any lore that doesn't directly advance the plot and if you throw too much in you'll turn them off. And if you take away the lore, VTM is just the setting of Blade without Blade. And no producer's gonna jump at that.
        I'd argue that it's a different thing together: you'd write a Vampire: The Masquerade game for Bloodlines fans.



        The thing is that the Bloodlines game pretty much gives a general idea of how easy it is to introduce the general lore of the World of Darkness to the fandom if you want. You don't need to go into the deep dive stuff of it versus generally writing about the night to night of being a vampire. Indeed, that's arguably what V:TM is SUPPOSED to be about.

        I also pointed to WINTER'S TEETH as a really good example of how to introduce the setting to people without being too confusing.

        http://booknest.eu/reviews/charles/2...dewintersteeth

        Originally posted by Thoth View Post

        The Vampires Diaries more of less proves that a love triangle and attractive actors over ride any concerns as far as lore, action, or good writing. But that means if you don't hit the nail on the head to perfectly capture the young adult market, you have to set your series apart from the others, which while it makes you stand out, it alienates most mundanes and non-fans.

        Though to be honest its not like the any V:tM series would be able to stay true to the source material for very long, if than for no other reason than that much of the history of the V:tM game narrative was based on the idea of being transgressive. Back in the 90s when V:tM was getting started, vampire clubs, the idea of being the monster rather than the hero, the notion of enjoying being the monster rather than seeking redemption, etc. was all transgressive. Now all of that is old hat.

        In the current world being "transgressive" has one of two outcomes, you either pander to certain concepts of gender and identity to promote a message (Witcher tv series bad guy armor) or you are transgressive by showing the depths of depravity to give context. Both outcomes tend to produce a lot of push back.

        To put it another way a V:tM series would have to be able to show each clan equally, rather than just selecting some clans for being the "good or bad" ones. I just don't see the public reacting well to a series where a Tzimisce looks at a movie like the Human Centipede and says something akin to "hold my beer".
        Honestly, Thoth I think it's kind of funny that you cite Vampire Diaries because there's already been a TV show about vampires that incorporated secret councils, feudal overlords, labyrinthine games, and power struggles between Elders.

        True Blood.

        Also, much more successful in its own way, the director of BLADE (Goyer) has coyly admitted that he copied wholesale the lore of the RPG versus Marvel comics.

        If you don't believe me, ask why he hired Tim Bradstreet to do the art for the movie.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-16-2021, 02:08 AM.


        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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        • #19
          As others have said, other vampire fiction has eaten those elements of VTM that are readily transferable to the TV screen. VTM has left a permanent mark on the genre, ironically to its own detriment. People simply have no reason to dish out money to VTM, when everything useful about it is public domain. Underworld, True Blood, Being Human, Blade, The Originals; all have gobbled up the key elements of VTM. About the only thing VTM now has to offer is the idea of clans having archtypical traits, and Hollywood probably wouldn't want to use that because it requires different special effects for different clans. That's probably the only reason it hasn't been eaten: simpler to just have the special effects department only need one small set of powers, like super-speed and hypnotism.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
            As others have said, other vampire fiction has eaten those elements of VTM that are readily transferable to the TV screen. VTM has left a permanent mark on the genre, ironically to its own detriment. People simply have no reason to dish out money to VTM, when everything useful about it is public domain. Underworld, True Blood, Being Human, Blade, The Originals; all have gobbled up the key elements of VTM. About the only thing VTM now has to offer is the idea of clans having archtypical traits, and Hollywood probably wouldn't want to use that because it requires different special effects for different clans. That's probably the only reason it hasn't been eaten: simpler to just have the special effects department only need one small set of powers, like super-speed and hypnotism.
            Actually, I'd argue that they have a very good reason: the rights are probably pretty cheap and it does come with a crap ton of easily stealable lore.


            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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            • #21
              The best thing about WoD is just how naturally fucking-funny it is. Once you've got the setting, it writes itself, and you don't exactly need to give everyone all the dry lore and have them take it very seriously.
              So many vampire stories (a little too many in v5) revolve around fixing a fuckup, or fixing a fix for a fuckup. Combine that with casual corruption and entertaining, politically incorrect law enforcement, we have a black comedy every episode.
              Werewolf involves a killer McDonalds, a malicious captain-planet oil company, people selling evil children's toys, a big-pharma company that makes werefrogs.
              Mage is just... Just bring out the Etherites and have them build doomsday devices.
              And changeling... woah.


              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                Honestly, Thoth I think it's kind of funny that you cite Vampire Diaries because there's already been a TV show about vampires that incorporated secret councils, feudal overlords, labyrinthine games, and power struggles between Elders.

                True Blood.

                Also, much more successful in its own way, the director of BLADE (Goyer) has coyly admitted that he copied wholesale the lore of the RPG versus Marvel comics.

                If you don't believe me, ask why he hired Tim Bradstreet to do the art for the movie.
                Technically Forever Knight touched on many the same points over a decade earlier than True Blood. But the main thing with True Blood is that the vampire societal aspects of the show always felt haphazard rather than a functional system at best and shark jumping at worst.

                Though I feel that True Blood is an unfair example most of the time since that is a vampire society that is out of the coffin as it were, like the Anita Blake book series. V:tM is still in hidden society mode. Though the fact that every true blood vampire gets dominate 3 at character generation like wise messes with the equation.

                As far as the Blade movies, the V:tM documentary on Amazon discussed some of the whole cloth copying that went on.

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                • #23
                  Where the WoD really shines is in how lived-in and expansive it feels. There's a similar approach to worldbuilding as you'd find in Tolkien, for example (not in the sense of creating maps and languages, but in the way Tolkein references things obliquely to suggest a world beyond what you can immediately see).

                  None of it in isolation will be groundbreaking, but going the Bloodlines route would be a good idea to get that unique blend of ingredients together without overwhelming anyone.

                  In fact, you could just adapt the Bloodlines storyline, and work from there. That's not a bad idea at all.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by adambeyoncelowe View Post
                    Where the WoD really shines is in how lived-in and expansive it feels. There's a similar approach to worldbuilding as you'd find in Tolkien, for example (not in the sense of creating maps and languages, but in the way Tolkein references things obliquely to suggest a world beyond what you can immediately see).

                    None of it in isolation will be groundbreaking, but going the Bloodlines route would be a good idea to get that unique blend of ingredients together without overwhelming anyone.

                    In fact, you could just adapt the Bloodlines storyline, and work from there. That's not a bad idea at all.
                    God yes! please!!!! yes!!!

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                    • #25
                      I think the biggest mistake that Kindred: the Embraced made was that it wasn't Sasha's story.

                      Start with the Neonate and unveil the rest.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • #26
                        But what we do in the Shadows exists. That series isn't just the V:TM series its the Vampire larp the series.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Lian View Post
                          But what we do in the Shadows exists. That series isn't just the V:TM series its the Vampire larp the series.
                          I just call it TZIMISCE: THE SERIES.



                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            I just call it TZIMISCE: THE SERIES.


                            Nador the Relentless is my go to for Old clan.

                            I am pretty sure Lazlo and Nadja are Toreador anti

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                              I think the biggest mistake that Kindred: the Embraced made was that it wasn't Sasha's story.

                              Start with the Neonate and unveil the rest.
                              Normally I would agree that a newcomer POV character is best for educating the non-gamers into the lore, except there is one major pitfall to that. Specifically that if the series spends too much time at the POV characters level it gets boring and the audience loses interest. On the other hand if the writers can't think of an engaging story for the neonate, they will rush the storyline to get to the elders who are interesting. Hence why all the vampire stories that suddenly involve the council of elders, the progenitor of all vampires, or what ever other high level nonsense they think can be dropped in like a villain of the week.

                              That high end stuff should be like the white walkers in GoT or the Yellow King in True Detective season 1, always part of the story but only in the shadows. To use an older series as an example anything elder vampire level should be reveled like the truth behind the Shadows and Vorlons in Babylon 5, with four seasons worth of world building. But I doubt most writers are up to the task of such a thing.

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                              • #30
                                I really think the first thing to do with the WoD is to actively try and capitalize on audience ignorance. Build up mystery.


                                A happily married man is utterly infatuated with another and he slowly slides into doing the bidding of this mysterious person at the expense of his personal life. He is confused and distraught concerning his lack of control, the fear of being caught by either the law of his wife, and it all just seems to get worse. He also notes that this person seems very adverse to eating, and usually can't find him during the day.
                                -A man gets shot too many times and, while seemingly dead and people distracted, his body, out of focus, gets up and leaves.
                                -An old woman recognizes a young man, and is terrified, she claims he was involved in an event more than twenty years ago, something he's seemingly far too young to have been involved with, and she causes a commotion. The next day she has no recollection of the events, though her health seems to be perfectly normal.
                                -A woman finds out that several important people she has dealings with don't seem to exist.
                                -An agent shows up at someone's house inquiring about a traumatic event that was witnessed. The agent retells the story that's very obviously incorrect to the audience, but the subject completely internalizes this new retelling. The agent will show up again to do the same to another family.


                                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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