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[V5] The Sabbat thread

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  • [V5] The Sabbat thread

    So, we're getting a Sabbat book.

    We have the rules for Lasombra and Tzimisce.

    Justin Achilli is writing it.

    So, what do we want from this book and how will the Sabbat be portrayed from now on?

    What are your thoughts and hopes?


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

  • #2
    Paths of Enlightenment being treated as serious alternates to Humanity, with a replacement of the Tenets and Touchstones systems with something that would function for them. A move away from the Revised view of the Sabbat as degenerates and idiots.
    Last edited by Taggie; 03-15-2021, 01:59 PM.

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    • #3
      Paths of Enlightenment. Warrior Salubri. Possibly (only just possibly) "Monster Manual" type entries for Kiasyd, True Brujah and other weirdies (mainly intended as one-off fights for your coterie). Probably lots of material on setting chronicles in the modern Middle East.

      1:12 they try to attract the Zoomies by throwing in Abominations. Yes! This is the book where you can be a Wolfomapire!

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      • #4
        Didnt you already make a sabbat thread a wjile back (admitedly, it got a bit torn up by folks unhappy with the direction taken)



        I would like a lasombra/tzmisce/Ravnos rewrite.
        paths
        a... how do you salvage them? pretty sure they were sent to the middle east to die.
        do they get awesome powers from the baali city and become an insidious boogie man for anarch kiddies?
        or did they never really leave their cities and just pretended to.
        or are they just... joining the camarilla?


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Taggie View Post
          Paths of Enlightenment being treated as serious alternates to Humanity, with a replacement of the Tenets and Touchstones systems with something that would function for them. A move away from the Revised view of the Sabbat as degenerates and idiots.
          Now if they're degenerates or idiots. That's another thing.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by omenseer View Post

            Now if they're degenerates or idiots. That's another thing.
            They have been force fed the idiot ball, tis true....

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
              So, what do we want from this book and how will the Sabbat be portrayed from now on?

              What are your thoughts and hopes?
              With the caveat that I don't pay much of any attention to V5:

              I think it would be interesting to have a Sabbat that organized itself entirely around which Path one follows rather than which clan one is descended from. Generally taking the idea that they're rebelling against the Antediluvian founders to the "logical" conclusion that acknowledging one's lineage makes one more vulnerable to their manipulations and control. So, "anti-tribe" takes on a new meaning, as they reject clan ties in favor of those formed with fellow Road practitioners. Also, in the case of Packs, the Pack Priest would be the one who is the most advanced in their understanding the single Path the entire Pack follows.

              I've no idea if this would be at all feasible under V5, but I just think it would be interesting.


              What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
              Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post
                I think it would be interesting to have a Sabbat that organized itself entirely around which Path one follows rather than which clan one is descended from. Generally taking the idea that they're rebelling against the Antediluvian founders to the "logical" conclusion that acknowledging one's lineage makes one more vulnerable to their manipulations and control. So, "anti-tribe" takes on a new meaning, as they reject clan ties in favor of those formed with fellow Road practitioners. Also, in the case of Packs, the Pack Priest would be the one who is the most advanced in their understanding the single Path the entire Pack follows.
                I think that's an interesting take, and I kind of already do that with Sabbat NPCs in my chronicles. It makes sense for many packs to be based around the same Path of Enlightenment especially since any "priest" is realistically unlikely to be able to support a multitude of paths.

                (Also, in my chronicles the pack priest reports to the Bishops, and that often makes them a kind of political commissar in service to the ambitious bishops who are primarily Lasombra and Tzimisce centralizers of the sect, so it creates political tension between the ductus and priest.)

                Of course, this doesn't mean that a Sabbat "organized" around Paths means that all packs are build around them. As much as I think that makes sense, it makes for a poor game for PCs. Picking your own Path of Enlightenment is very much an individual PC choice like picking a clan. It's rare for all the PCs to pick the same path. So you need to portray the sect in such a way that multi-path Sabbat packs are still normal and unremarkable.

                So I agree with you that there should be less of a clan-based organization within the Sabbat. Not something entirely eliminated, and there would be strong factions inside it which were clan based (including factions seemingly based around Paths which are actually a vehicle for one of the clans - primarily the Lasombra and Tzimisce). In fact, I think a lot of the original fighters of the Anarch Revolt would be most opposed to real clan structures within the Sabbat since they would recognize them as tools of the elders. For example, it would be a great way to distinguish those "young" Lasombra of the Anarch Revolt truly committed to destroying the elders and liberating all vampires, and the "elder" Lasombra who only joined the sect out of expedience and a belief that it was a better route to power through them than with the Camarilla. It never made sense for me that the former Lasombra Anarchs would retain something like the Courts of the Blood. That made more sense as something secretly retained by the Lasombra anti-tribu in the Camarilla, and as among a dark secret of the elders who joined the Sabbat quite late or out of ambition.
                Last edited by Black Fox; 03-16-2021, 02:56 PM.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                  With the caveat that I don't pay much of any attention to V5:

                  I think it would be interesting to have a Sabbat that organized itself entirely around which Path one follows rather than which clan one is descended from. Generally taking the idea that they're rebelling against the Antediluvian founders to the "logical" conclusion that acknowledging one's lineage makes one more vulnerable to their manipulations and control. So, "anti-tribe" takes on a new meaning, as they reject clan ties in favor of those formed with fellow Road practitioners. Also, in the case of Packs, the Pack Priest would be the one who is the most advanced in their understanding the single Path the entire Pack follows.

                  I've no idea if this would be at all feasible under V5, but I just think it would be interesting.
                  That's an extremely cool idea and makes a ton of sense to me, though I would go with the idea that there are "pure" packs and "mixed" some with vampires who all share a single path and some with vampires from different paths (which are more likely to be player character packs, since most likely each player might prefer to follow a different path).

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                  • #10
                    I am hoping that THE SABBAT book will continue the trend of being primarily fiction based but I am also hoping that it will have plenty of rules information as well. I want the sense of what the Sabbat is up to and I want them to roll back SOME of the changes for 5th Edition but not all of them. I am admittedly primarily a lore junkie and the rules have always been less important to me than the specifics of rules.

                    Still, if I wanted to say what I wanted from the book, here's my list:

                    * An in-character story about the Fall of Mexico City
                    * An in-character story about the Fall of Montreal
                    * An in-character story about the Lasombra Defection
                    * The current status of the Lasombra Loyalists
                    * A basic sense of how many ancients and Elders were killed by the Sabbat during the Gehenna Crusade [This sounds silly but if the Sabbat were supposed to be on this Crusade and getting their asses kicked, I'd like them to have actually inflicted massive damage on the number of Camarilla Beckoned and monsters awakened--give back the Sabbat some dignity]
                    * The return of House Goratrix
                    * The fate of Lucita (I swear she's not my waifu....that's Victoria Ash)
                    * The Drowned Legacies vs. The Sabbat
                    * Who the current Regents or Regents are
                    * How many Sabbat defected to the Anarchs and Church of Caine

                    I'd like to also to have some modified Humanity rules. It doesn't have to be extensive but at least the following:

                    * Sabbat do not suffer Stains for killing or torturing humans.
                    * Sabbat can have fellow vampires as their Touchstones like members of their Pack

                    Basically, I'd like the Sabbat to return from the Gehenna Crusade but with a trade off of having lost some major cities but also having severely reduced the number of Elders and Methuselahs in the world.



                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Part of what I want is simply for the Long Road Out Of Hell to become canon: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N7z...ymRB7vteu/view
                      I love how that fan-made supplement does Paths, and it would please me greatly to have it simply adopted.

                      The other thing is I want the Sabbat to have their own cities again. I'm not interested in them only infiltrators in Cammy cities. The Sabbat are the default sect in my games. I have zero interest in them simply being the boogeymen to a sect who barely ever even show up in my games. The Sabbat are not Nephandi or Baali. The Sabbat are their own distinct, complex culture and work just fine interacting almost exclusively with each other and mortals.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
                        Part of what I want is simply for the Long Road Out Of Hell to become canon: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1N7z...ymRB7vteu/view
                        I love how that fan-made supplement does Paths, and it would please me greatly to have it simply adopted.

                        The other thing is I want the Sabbat to have their own cities again. I'm not interested in them only infiltrators in Cammy cities. The Sabbat are the default sect in my games. I have zero interest in them simply being the boogeymen to a sect who barely ever even show up in my games. The Sabbat are not Nephandi or Baali. The Sabbat are their own distinct, complex culture and work just fine interacting almost exclusively with each other and mortals.
                        Am I alone in wanting the Path of Evil Revelations to be an accepted part of the Sabbat?

                        Or at least powerful enough to openly feud with the Inquisition?

                        Those guys deserve some respect!


                        Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

                          That's an extremely cool idea and makes a ton of sense to me, though I would go with the idea that there are "pure" packs and "mixed" some with vampires who all share a single path and some with vampires from different paths (which are more likely to be player character packs, since most likely each player might prefer to follow a different path).
                          I've been pondering the idea that, when an attack on a city fails, survivors of decimated packs get shoved together for a bit, seeing if they learn to coexist, convert each other or go their separate ways when they reach a Sabbat held city.


                          What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                          Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                            Am I alone in wanting the Path of Evil Revelations to be an accepted part of the Sabbat?

                            Or at least powerful enough to openly feud with the Inquisition?

                            Those guys deserve some respect!
                            Yes, I'd say you are pretty much alone in that desire, or at least your desire is only shared by those who think of the Sabbat as simply something for Cammies to punch.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

                              Yes, I'd say you are pretty much alone in that desire, or at least your desire is only shared by those who think of the Sabbat as simply something for Cammies to punch.
                              Which is funny because my love for the Path of Evil Revelations is from my Sabbat games.

                              You need someone for the Sabbat to punch other than the Cammies.

                              The Evil Revelations people add an internal enemy to fight and an ideological challenge to the Paths.

                              "What makes us worse?"

                              Edit:

                              The Sabbat as a force willing to wield the power of Hell against the Antediluvians isn't an argument that I think is necessarily a bad one. After all, the infernal is a weapon and we have Demon: The Fallen. Sure, most of them are pure evil but what IS evil? The other Sabbat may argue that it is against freedom (but are they free) or that the forces of Hell are even worse than the Antediluvians but the Road of the Devil was actually a fairly moral (comparatively) group during the Dark Ages.

                              What separates the Damned from the damned?

                              I'm interested in those kind of questions.

                              Then again, I tend to think of the Nephandi as more interesting than the Union.
                              Last edited by CTPhipps; 03-16-2021, 02:48 AM.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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