[V5] The Sabbat thread

[adambeyoncelowe]

Lol let's water the clans down to verbs because reading an entire book is hard.

I can see why they did it. But in my view, you distill down to a single verb to then build back up to the complexity that a splat needs. The great thing about the Clans is that each holds multitudes. You lose a lot if you refine too much.

I mentioned a Tolkienesque way of worldbuilding before--where you present a mix of truths, half-truths and untruths, and where the accounts of what's happening and happened are all partial and biased--and that was always a strength of the WoD. So you need Clans that have key themes but also that are able to subvert those same themes: a Baali Christian crusader wanting to purge the Infernal, say, or a Kiasyd fascist who burns books and steals knowledge they deem to be dangerous.

[Matt the Bruins fan]

So you need Clans that have key themes but also that are able to subvert those same themes: a Baali Christian crusader wanting to purge the Infernal, say, or a Kiasyd fascist who burns books and steals knowledge they deem to be dangerous.

I'm generally a fan of characters stepping out from under the tyranny of clan stereotypes, but I think circumstances wherein the bolded character would survive to reach independence would be exceedingly rare.

[CTPhipps]

I'm generally a fan of characters stepping out from under the tyranny of clan stereotypes, but I think circumstances wherein the bolded character would survive to reach independence would be exceedingly rare.

I could see a pretty easy one where the Baali decides to Embrace a warrior of True Faith to break him, only to get murdered by said soldier.

[adambeyoncelowe]

I could see a pretty easy one where the Baali decides to Embrace a warrior of True Faith to break him, only to get murdered by said soldier.

Me too. Also, the Baali is pretty fractured in the Final Nights, so it's not like the Camarilla or Sabbst Inquisition, where they can throw everything at hunting down a rogue agent.

The Molochim wouldn't necessarily destroy such a character outright, either, since their whole schtick is that they do evil to prevent even worse evil--and they hunt down and destroy the Nergali for being the wrong kind of infernalists.

Said Christian crusader, anti-infernalist Baali could also pose as Tremere, due to the similarity of their blood. They don't need to declare who and what they are.

[CajunKhan]

One thing I've noticed is that the Predator types, other than Alleycat, don't really work with Sabbat. How would you handle it with Sabbat? I've been considering replacing Predator-type with something Path related, or simply dumping Predator-type altogether and simply making the Sabbat discipline spread 1 dot in two clan discipline, and 2 dots in one clan discipline.

[CTPhipps]

One thing I've noticed is that the Predator types, other than Alleycat, don't really work with Sabbat. How would you handle it with Sabbat? I've been considering replacing Predator-type with something Path related, or simply dumping Predator-type altogether and simply making the Sabbat discipline spread 1 dot in two clan discipline, and 2 dots in one clan discipline.

Generally, I assume most Sabbat feed when they want where they want and forego any sort of real care. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if they do some NON-Boogeyman Sabbat too.

Sabbat who have normal unlives outside of Jyhad like Sienna.

[MyWifeIsScary]

First, the majority of Sabbat generally feed the same as the Cam; Nailing someone's grandmother to the roof and feeding from her feet might be done now and then, but it's too much of a pain in the ass to do on the regular. Give me Convenience or give me death. You should also consider that, unless V5 deletes the viniculum, Sabbat need to consider their pack when they want to do something troublesome and stupid.
Second, Predator types don't actually work, Sabbat or not.. Good idea, bad execution.

First, for whatever reason, V5 has established you learn Disciplines through resonances rather than using them. Predator types run contrary to that.
Second, it's pretty rare someone so dedicates themselves to a predator type. At least, predator types that aren't sandman or cassanova or prisoner abuse. Ventrue,Salubri, Giovanni and thinbloods are often exceptions, but most of the 'predator types' are really, really bad ideas to do on a regular basis. Alleycat feedings should be crimes of opportunity, not your standard.

[CTPhipps]

First, the majority of Sabbat generally feed the same as the Cam; Nailing someone's grandmother to the roof and feeding from her feet might be done now and then, but it's too much of a pain in the ass to do on the regular. Give me Convenience or give me death. You should also consider that, unless V5 deletes the viniculum, Sabbat need to consider their pack when they want to do something troublesome and stupid.

I agree with most of your post but this is a bizarre hot take.

The Sabbat ENCOURAGES massacres and slaughter among Packs as a way of binding you together as well as reducing your connection to your Humanity. There's literally dozens of games described that involve murder, mayhem, and atrocity. These are things the Sabbat do as sports. The Camarilla doesn't have kidnapping mortals, brainwashing them, releasing them into a mall and then hunting them for sport.

Not everyone is Vykos.

Most are soccer hooligans.

And even Vykos enjoys the occasional game of head soccer.

"Football," - My Brujah Antitribu

[CajunKhan]

It seems like the predator types were designed as a plug-n-play mechanic that was both faster and harder to abuse than the old Flaws+Freebies-Merits system. But the result is only useful in completely bog-standard Camarilla games. The Sabbat would just murder the Siren's spurned lover or jealous partner, for example.

I've seen some homebrew predator types that might work, but that was on an old computer and I don't know where to find them anymore.

[Taggie]

First, the majority of Sabbat generally feed the same as the Cam; Nailing someone's grandmother to the roof and feeding from her feet might be done now and then, but it's too much of a pain in the ass to do on the regular. Give me Convenience or give me death. You should also consider that, unless V5 deletes the viniculum, Sabbat need to consider their pack when they want to do something troublesome and stupid.
Second, Predator types don't actually work, Sabbat or not.. Good idea, bad execution.

First, for whatever reason, V5 has established you learn Disciplines through resonances rather than using them. Predator types run contrary to that.
Second, it's pretty rare someone so dedicates themselves to a predator type. At least, predator types that aren't sandman or cassanova or prisoner abuse. Ventrue,Salubri, Giovanni and thinbloods are often exceptions, but most of the 'predator types' are really, really bad ideas to do on a regular basis. Alleycat feedings should be crimes of opportunity, not your standard.

That's an odd take on feeding, alley cat ambushes, kidnappings, blood games etc are fairly standard, and part of why Sabbat cities have insane murder rates.... Sure don't tear apart the mayor outside the town hall but round up an entire encampment of rough sleepers, make them fight, eat the losers and embrace the winners? That's some quality entertainment, or hunt someone you deem to be strong, spend hours or nights tracking them, and draining them at the end? Feral Heart is all aboard that idea...

[MyWifeIsScary]

Every member of the Sabbat ritually killing on average a person about once a season gives you a high murder rate. Those Sabbat killing people every night or even once a week doesn't give you a high-murder rate, it makes your city a concentration camp.

This is average speaking. I'm sure you've got once-a-month killers and avoids-killing vampires among the sabbat. Three things you should consider:
1- Sabbat generally fuck with the masquerade in enemy territory, and don't really try as hard to shit in their own backyard.
2- A lot of the Sabbat's sick fuckery can be done without killing people; Extremely unethical 'pranks' and such. You chase a man for sport, but you only maim him.
3- A lot of the Sabbat's sick fuckery are really just vampire employee team-building exercises, and you can share a murder throughout the whole pack, you don't need to kill one person each.


IDK about you lot, but even if I was a psycho sabbat, I'd still get pissed off about someone in my pack going so overboard that it drew hunter attention to me. Someone's going to monomancy the fool for the good of the pack.

[CajunKhan]

True. For example, digging up a corpse from the graveyard, sneaking it into someone's house, and posing it at the dinner table or on the bed next to their sleeping widowed spouse hones the vampire's stealth and lockpickng skills, bonds the Pack in a frat-bro sort of way, and doesn't actually involve killing.

That said, the Cammy predator types still don't work. While Sabbat aren't all psycho's, almost all the standard predator types assume someone actively attempting to retain their humanity.

The one exception, Alleycat, still doesn't work because beating people up for food wouldn't cost you rating on most paths. So the flaw baked into it, losing a humanity point, doesn't work, and would need to be replaced.

[Lian]

Paths are supposed to be harder than humanity. They are supposed to limit you vs being on humanity,. That they might have fewer Predator style options compared to humamity seems like a reasonable trade off. So the sabbat book might come new types for each Path but they would be much smaller in number. While Humanity could take just about anything.

[Black Fox]

I think the really strange and sick things the Sabbat do are done only at rare times. Because they would attract vampire hunters like crazy and cause debilitating casualties to the sect. Even the "normal" hunting the Sabbat does is more higher profile than Camarilla vampires, so the Sabbat should already have a bad problem with hunters and a much higher rate of destruction. Not just independent hunters, but organized hunters like the Inquisition, Lupines, and other enemies. Archon coteries like the Wolfpack for one. I imagine truly outrageous Sabbat antics even attracts the Technocracy to wipe out that particular pack.

As a result, while the Sabbat often talks about outrageous things that have been done, they don't really do them. That story about Sabbat hunting people in malls that every pack uproariously talks about? Yeah, it happened ONCE. And soon afterwards, the pack was never heard from again. What happened to them? Nobody knows. But hey, it's a cool story so it gets told a lot. So while the Sabbat all yuck it up as it proves how "badass" they are, every single one of them knows the real morale of that story - don't do stupid things like that or you'll get killed.

And of course when you tell stories like that, they become embellished and become tall tales. Maybe that hunt at the "mall" was in fact just a gas station when someone's prey escaped and made their way there to call for help, and the pack was forced to deal with the people already there, and they had to make it look like a burglary gone bad. Much less impressive, so the story ends up changing over time. And tall tales can quickly diverge from one another. So that one incident leads to a dozen different stories that sound like separate events, but it still only happened once.

And not all of the inhuman Paths of Enlightenment lead to horrendous murder scenes. Some are quite indifferent to it, and others are even hostile. Vampires on the Path of Honorable Accord likely don't treat mortals any worse than vampires on Humanity. Vampires on the Path of Night don't want to kill mortals - they want to fill them with dread of evil so they turn towards God for salvation. A lot of Paths fall into this area. In fact, there's probably a lot of conflict between packs who follow these kind of Paths, and those whose antics violate them. Such conflicts might not end up in open warfare given the Sabbat tents of freedom and loyalty, but there's probably other ways of handling them especially if one can argue that such an antic "betrayed" the Sabbat by revealing the sect to its enemies.

[BadFurryFanFic]

Keep in mind the vast majority of truly egregious stuff the Sabbat gets up to is done during an invasion specifically to force the Cam to spend resources on Masquerade cover ups and divert said resources from being used in the actual conflict.