Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

[V5] The Sabbat thread

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    And the biggest problem with all this is that the game makes it a fucking elder power, whilst I'd put it at 4 Vicissitude and 1 animalism.
    Exactly. Vozhds are really cool looking, but nowhere near powerful enough to justify locking them out of player-access in any game that doesn't last three years.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      Hellhounds/MonsterHippos/spiney snakes>>>>Vozhd.

      It's a big, slow target.
      would've been outdated just before 1500. An era of gun and spear; Vozhd don't have a chance. NE europe, where the majority of Tzmisce are from if we ignore dracula (and we should) and pay attention to all the Polish/Russian terminology the clan has used. From Poland to Russia, everything's flatter than my career opportunity in china after covid hit. Hills are happiness and that's why we're all depressed here. A big monstrosity mashup of twenty people or so, on such open terrain, is just a target (And in a forest, it's stuck). Hell, even before guns, arrows would do the trick since there's no way you're armouring something that big. Hell again, after thinking about it, this is also a terrible idea in mountainous terrain, or on hills, or in cities, or... it's maybe decent in aquatic environments. Perhaps a lake district?

      Anyhow they're just fucking dumb no matter what year it is. Just come straight out and tell us it's modern body horror because Tzmisce have degenerated quite a bit in the Sabbat, don't justify it with -it's an ancient practice and used to be super common-. Maybe, like, A Vozhd of five people or less might have practical advantages, and might have been done on a semi-common basis. Anything more than that... it's an art project, not a weapon of war. And the biggest problem with all this is that the game makes it a fucking elder power, whilst I'd put it at 4 Vicissitude and 1 animalism.
      I generally agree. That was my point: the Tzimisce make them for the joy of creation, and to terrify/horrify/demoralize people.

      I disagree, however, with the idea that they were NEVER without use.

      First, the Tzimisce did a lot of activity up in the Carpathian mountains, where they had plenty of hills and rocky terrain to hide their creations in or ambush people. Not to mention dense forests, which were way more common in pre-modern times.

      Second, your comment assumes that Vozhd are being deployed on a regular battlefield, against regular troops. More likely, they'd be stalking people from the shadows, from treelines, digging under buildings, swimming along rivers. Ambushes are a far better use of a Vozhd than a frontal assault. Plays to the strengths of a monster that trades in terror.

      All of this, mind you, in the dead of night, during an era where light sources were limited. Battles were not, as a rule, fought at night for most of history. The most skilled mortal archers you could find (aside from Mages, of course) are perfectly useless against a monster they can't see coming. That's assuming they'd even have the courage to stand and fight (again, against a monster they can't see or at least can't see well in the weak torchlight), rather than panic and run away. Fear is, itself, a powerful weapon, useful against ignorant peasants and ignorant soldiers alike.

      Third, a bow is only useful if a Tzimisce doesn't employ countermeasures in their fleshcrafting. Thick layers of blubber, tough hide, thick fur, bone plates. All of these can protect vital organs and limit opportunities to inflict substantial bleeding. (This is assuming the Tzimisce isn't outfitting their creations with any kind of custom-made armor, like chain or plate mail, or leather, cloth, or brigandine armor). Extra organs can help keep the Vozhd going even if one gets destroyed. A plurality of heads and/or eyes can avoid it being blinded, assuming the Tzimisce doesn't dispense with eyes entirely and let other senses guide the creature in the dark. (Again, such a creature would arguably be batter at fighting in the dark than your average medieval person, even a trained warrior). If it's particularly mobile or camouflaged, it might avoid injury entirely, either because they can't hit it or isn't seen until it's too late (again, we're back to Vozhd being ambush weapons).


      It's only once we get modern technology - firearms, better lighting or night vision, surveillance technology, automobiles and aircraft, etc. - that regular human fighting forces become substantially better than flesh-crafted monsters. Obviously, even lesser forms of these technologies would have made truly enormous Vozhd less viable. But smaller Vozhd might still have had a place. Arguably, clever or inventive Tzimisce can still make them work.
      Last edited by Bluecho; 04-07-2021, 06:30 PM.


      Comment


      • So basically, Vozhd as that lake-thingy that attacked the Fellowship just before they went in the Dwarven tunnels?

        https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/lo...20110912215655

        Comment


        • Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post

          Exactly. Vozhds are really cool looking, but nowhere near powerful enough to justify locking them out of player-access in any game that doesn't last three years.
          I imagine they were a bit more terrifying before the invention of firearms. They're also probably pretty terrifying in places that don't arn their police with military grade equipment.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

            I imagine they were a bit more terrifying before the invention of firearms. They're also probably pretty terrifying in places that don't arn their police with military grade equipment.
            This is another thing I considered bringing up.

            While modern military hardware makes normal humans pretty dangerous, not every location is going to have people (victims, really) so well armed.

            I imagine if the wilderness weren't full to the brim with Lupines, more Tzimisce would maintain monster-filled estates in the country. Abominations stalking the woods, patrolling for intruders.

            How well a Vozhd could operate in a city depends on the country. As CTPhipps said, here in America our police aren't armed - and act - as if they're an occupying military force, actively at war with threats around every corner. Organized crime operations have plenty of weapons, too. But alas, I repeat myself.

            Since vampires tend to operate like organized crime to begin with, they have an edge when it comes to fighting Vozhd. Tzimisce probably get the most bang out of them if they either target vampires that don't expect an attack by monsters, or have built/outfitted their creations with countermeasures as I described. Even then, urban environments tend to favor at best small Vozhd, made of only a few people each.


            Comment


            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              I imagine they were a bit more terrifying before the invention of firearms. They're also probably pretty terrifying in places that don't arn their police with military grade equipment.
              Yes and no, the problem the Vozhd has always had is that it is hugely complicated and difficult, yet not actually that good at what it's supposed to do, compared to a ghouled wolf pack, or hell a squad of szlatcha if you must have flesh crafted thing wannabes, but again, ghoul with armour and an axe and bow does better, let alone ones with guns, or animal ghouls hunting the target.

              Comment


              • The Vozhd might have originally been created to fight Lupines. It might be good enough to defeat one Lupine or hold off a pack of them long enough so that the Tzimisce can get away or bring reinforcements. It might make better sense as a defensive weapon in a lair that a powerful foe invades, that something you send out after others. Of course, once its invented, you're going to find some other use for them.

                I jettisoned Vicissitude in my home chronicles, but I strangely kept the vozhd around. I thought it was distinctive and wanted to retain it somehow. Dr Frankenstein is an acceptable gothic trope, so I attributed it to a variant of Biothaumaturgy known to some of the Tzimisce.

                Comment


                • I don't imagine they'd show up on battlefields. But a skirmish between fiefs? sure. That're too big to really ambush people all that effectively, and you could instead ambush people with normal monsters so... Also, like, I really do question the need for guns. You can't armour these things if they're of any scale, given the square root law. Without armour, bows are likely to do a lot of damage, and if you can get to them, spears are likewise excellent weapons for fighting giants.

                  The lupine question is an interestiing one. Because yes, they might be a good distracting -tank- while the rest of you run to the spears, but they're still... like, they're probably very expensive to maintain, and I don't think that mechanically, they'd last more than a turn against a lupine pack. The only real advantage they have over usual means is that they've got immunity to delirium
                  Maybe there's a magical element to them and the more people you've thrown into them the more disproportionately mighty they get, but otherwise it's still at -art project- rather than practical.

                  One other thing to consider is that far reaching trade and large concentrations of wealth took a shitter for the period between the fall of Rome and the renaissance and it wasn't easy to just find a hippo. Now, this is somewhat countered by Europe not yet having wiped out all of their most impressive animals through overhunting (aurochs got wiped in 1627, Lions got wiped in the 10th century, there are likely less famous examples I just took a cursory look)
                  So maybe Vozhd had a place for Tzmisce too cheap to import something impressive...


                  Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                  There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    I don't imagine they'd show up on battlefields. But a skirmish between fiefs? sure. That're too big to really ambush people all that effectively, and you could instead ambush people with normal monsters so... Also, like, I really do question the need for guns. You can't armour these things if they're of any scale, given the square root law. Without armour, bows are likely to do a lot of damage, and if you can get to them, spears are likewise excellent weapons for fighting giants.

                    The lupine question is an interestiing one. Because yes, they might be a good distracting -tank- while the rest of you run to the spears, but they're still... like, they're probably very expensive to maintain, and I don't think that mechanically, they'd last more than a turn against a lupine pack. The only real advantage they have over usual means is that they've got immunity to delirium
                    Maybe there's a magical element to them and the more people you've thrown into them the more disproportionately mighty they get, but otherwise it's still at -art project- rather than practical.

                    One other thing to consider is that far reaching trade and large concentrations of wealth took a shitter for the period between the fall of Rome and the renaissance and it wasn't easy to just find a hippo. Now, this is somewhat countered by Europe not yet having wiped out all of their most impressive animals through overhunting (aurochs got wiped in 1627, Lions got wiped in the 10th century, there are likely less famous examples I just took a cursory look)
                    So maybe Vozhd had a place for Tzmisce too cheap to import something impressive...


                    Then use a horse. Or a bear. Both of those exist across Europe at the time (hell a bear is one I missed earlier and properly terrifying)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Taggie View Post

                      Yes and no, the problem the Vozhd has always had is that it is hugely complicated and difficult, yet not actually that good at what it's supposed to do, compared to a ghouled wolf pack, or hell a squad of szlatcha if you must have flesh crafted thing wannabes, but again, ghoul with armour and an axe and bow does better, let alone ones with guns, or animal ghouls hunting the target.
                      That may be poor rules then because the descriptions of them are terrifying unstoppable horrors who tear most vampires to pieces.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                      Comment


                      • Yeah, I always got the impression that Vozhds are supposed to be scary enough that even a werewolf pack is going to pause for a moment and possibly consider a plan before rushing in to tangle with one. The description basically compares them to a tank, which should represent a major threat for most beings in the World of Darkness, but the rules never really backed that up .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                          Yeah, I always got the impression that Vozhds are supposed to be scary enough that even a werewolf pack is going to pause for a moment and possibly consider a plan before rushing in to tangle with one. The description basically compares them to a tank, which should represent a major threat for most beings in the World of Darkness, but the rules never really backed that up .
                          Agreed. These things really should be shoggoths that eat whoever gets close to them and are immune to bullets.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Taggie View Post



                            Then use a horse. Or a bear. Both of those exist across Europe at the time (hell a bear is one I missed earlier and properly terrifying)
                            Ghouled horses work amazingly for cavalry and poorly as their own monster. I didn't mention Bears because, well, they're a staple and it's rather easy to forget about them, and we're largely discussing history for the modern context of Sabbat going wild. Bears are common, and though you might go 'OH SHIT' if you found one strutting around the inner city, they're common enough in north america (supposedly where most Sabbat reside) that it wouldn't be terribly groundbreaking for a Bear to appear in the suburbs. A Hippo, on the otherhand, is going to come from a zoo, or perhaps a cocaine king's private garden. There's just a massive wow factor from having a hippo run about. You'll make international news. And so the Cam need to be really considerate about how they handle it.


                            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                              That may be poor rules then because the descriptions of them are terrifying unstoppable horrors who tear most vampires to pieces.


                              it is for sure poor rules. The fluff has them as war machines and siege units, the rules have them torn apart by the coeterie beat stick in about 2 turns. People were mentioning putting them against Werewolf packs, I don't see them as a threat to a solo wolf, let alone a pack, without a successful ambush on favourable terrain.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                                it is for sure poor rules. The fluff has them as war machines and siege units, the rules have them torn apart by the coeterie beat stick in about 2 turns. People were mentioning putting them against Werewolf packs, I don't see them as a threat to a solo wolf, let alone a pack, without a successful ambush on favourable terrain.
                                Yep. These should be the Nexus Crawlers of vampiredom.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X