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  • Samedi Theory and Questions.

    Greetings everyone.

    So I couldn't help notice a lot of the mysteries (loose ends) that surround the clan, which is also the reason for the questions in the post.
    Which clan are the Samedi a bloodline of? The Nosferatu, Cappadocian...or other clan or something entirely different? However, there are lot of things that leads me to believe that it's Cappadocian. One of my main drives to figure this out, was oddly enough to find out who the referenced sire is - Queen Mother, who the heck is this one? I'm not entirely sure who this actually is a reference to, though it's very likely that this identity is a ruse - an assumed identity, and the sire has obfuscated his or her identity when dealing with the childe or anyone it's associated with, to conceal it's own identity's involvement. But I'm open to suggestions, who this Queen Mother actually is a reference to and why.

    There are a lot of things that in the end, points towards clan Cappadocian, but lets start with who I think is the Baron's actual sire and why. I think Baron's actual sire is Lazarus who was embraced by Cappadocious' making Lazarus both of clan Cappadocian and 4'th generation, where Baron Samedi is 5'th generation, so that fits well with the generation part. Also to note, Lazarus has a high level of Obfuscate and seemingly relies on lot on Obfuscating his own presence, which easily supports that the Queen Mother is a ruse - an assumed identity.

    Some of the reasons why I think Lazarus is his sire, is mainly due to his involvement in various things, and more importantly he has motive - revenge. How does revenge tie into all of this you might think, well considering that Augustus Giovanni did diablerize (although not fully) Lazarus' sire, I think thats a pretty strong motive for revenge, but with August being of lower generation and thus much stronger than Lazarus, and Lazarus was also in much fewer numbers, with Lazarus being kind of a loner I would say he had a good reason to sire one who could carry on the leadership of the group but also have a pawn to use. Lazarus is also most likely the entity behind the identity of Capuchin, which has had direct involvement with The True Vessel, and actually sent Baron Samedi to Augustus to "deliver" this (buy it from Baron), and Baron has referred to Capuchin as a friend. Supposedly, Baron has had many dealings with Augustus and very likely at the behest of Capuchin. I know, that it's up for debate IF Lazarus is in fact Capuchin and only one left of this group, but Lazarus is the most likely candidate for this. One can wonder why Lazarus would've wanted Augustus to obtain The True Vessel, but even so Capuchin/Lazarus is suspected to be directly responsible for the death and diablerie of Augustus Giovanni during the V5 timeline, so there is a motive and a connection.

    With that said, Lazarus was also informally considered being the leader of the Infitiore (a group that divorced itself from the main body of clan Cappadocian, denying their heritage to the clan), where supposedly most of these migrated to Caribbean. Supposedly these degenerated into the Samedi (due to lack of leadership from Lazarus but being lead by Baron?), more importantly one should question why and how they degenerated into this clan. There are a lot of connections to Baron Samedi, and it doesn't stop there.

    What about the clan Weakness of Clan Samedi? Is this an extreme version of the Cappadocian clan weakness or does this reflect an aspect of the true sire of Baron Samedi?
    Considering that in mortal life, Lazarus was reported to be a Thanatologist, is this a mere coincidence that clan Samedi's clan discipline is Thanatosis? Which by the way also is a Mortis - The Grave's Decay equivalent, and interestingly enough Mortis is a Cappadocian clan discipline, which is another thing that points toward Cappadocian. However, I think that Thanatosis discipline is intrinsically linked with the clan Samedi's clan weakness, but at the same time intrinsically linked with Baron's sire mortal obsession with Thanatology, which is also symbolized through their appearance - the mortal body's decay.

    Speaking of clan disciplines passed on, in 2nd ed. revised and V20, Clan Samedi has Fortitude, Obfuscate and Thanatosis, where clan Cappadocian has Auspex, Fortitude and Mortis. As mentioned before, Thanatosis is an Mortis - The Grave's Decay equivalent, which I think could be considered as passed on discpline, in a much more specialized and anvanced state. Fortitude would also have been passed on. Where Obfuscate would be the sire's personal gift to the clan.
    However, in the original discipline list and 2nd ed. Victorian Age, the clan Samedi had Necromancy, Obfuscate and Thanatosis. Where I think Mortis got substituted by Necromancy most likely due to which ruleset was used. But with the change from necromancy to fortitude, how clan Samedi actually be better at information gathering than Nosferatu? Because with necromancy they had access to spirits which can be a extremely useful tool for various things, including information gathering, but without it, all they actually have that would help them with gathering information would be Obfuscate, which the Nosferatu also has, but who also has access to Animalism.

    Another interesting note with regards to changing Necromancy to Fortitude, obviously Fortitude makes them more resilient but does that really fit the clan, but more importantly, why did fortitude suddenly lorewise become more prevalent in their blood? Because IF it's clan Cappadocian that is actually it's parent clan, then it was already more prevalent it would make a lot of lorewise sense that clan Samedi has it.

    Something I've been been wondering, it's been said that clan Samedi is better at procuring and trafficking/trading information than the Nosferatu, and it's one of those things that actually keeps them from being bloodhunted as their ghastly appearance is a masquearade breach on so many levels (without Obfuscate level 3 that is), so how exactly do they best the nosferatu without the use of necromancy? Also considering that during modern times, the Nosferatu has access to SchreckNet, which the Samedi does not.

    There is another thing that I've been wondering, who exactly have Baron Samedi learned the Necromancy - Voudou path from? My current theory, is that Baron learned necromancy from his sire and later developed this path due to the culture and religion of the Caribbean. Which would enable Baron to teach his childer necromancy and this path, and make it into how we know it today.

    I know there is a lot of text, so thank you for reading. I hope there are some who can help confirm or refute my theories and conclusion, but also answer questions and bring more insight to this topic.

    //Inc.


  • #2
    Yeah, it no longer makes sense of Samedi to be better at information gathering than the Nos, especially considering their small size. Not only are the Nos a full sized clan, they have a culture of rigorous secret-sharing amongst themselves. Without access to ghosts, there's no way in hell that the Sams are better at information gathering. They no longer have powers that would help with information gathering, and they can't compensate with organization because one can easily be the only one in an entire state. What's a Sam in, say, New Orleans gonna do? Phone another Sam in Miami asking for information? If anything, your average Samedi should be as ignorant as your average Caitiff.

    Comment


    • #3
      Personally, I adore the notion from BJD, that they are a South American lineage that is pretending to be a bloodline of an European clan for survival. In the setting however, I think they are descended from Troglodytia. Whom may have been a childe of Lazarus.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
        Yeah, it no longer makes sense of Samedi to be better at information gathering than the Nos, especially considering their small size. Not only are the Nos a full sized clan, they have a culture of rigorous secret-sharing amongst themselves. Without access to ghosts, there's no way in hell that the Sams are better at information gathering. They no longer have powers that would help with information gathering, and they can't compensate with organization because one can easily be the only one in an entire state. What's a Sam in, say, New Orleans gonna do? Phone another Sam in Miami asking for information? If anything, your average Samedi should be as ignorant as your average Caitiff.
        Yeah, the Samedi have a lot going against them in that regard, not only is their appearance against them but also their smell (pre-V5), and they can't even compensate using ghouls, as it wouldn't even make things better, because as a mortal having the stench of being isn't exactly a very sociable trait.

        Here is a scary thought with regards to information control, just consider a Nosferatu using Necromancy to gain even more information control, no one would be able to be better at it than them.

        With regards to an average Samedi being as ignorant an average Caitiff, I disagree with, but important factor here, is what defined as the average? However, even without knowing this, the average Samedi has it's clan weakness working very much against it, where an average Caitiff wouldn't have that issue, so in that regard it's lot better. But exactly what is an "average" Caitiff? The reason I say this is, a Caitiff is very versatile, so could easily be much better at information gathering. The average Samedi wouldn't have access to level 3 Obfuscate, although, it should be a priority. The average Caitiff doesn't even necessarily need Obfuscate to able to be better at gathering information than an average Samedi, as there are various disciplines depending on how they're used can be used for information gathering.

        But yeah, I have a hard time following why Samedi would be better at information gathering than Nosferatu, as the Nosferatu are in so many way far superior in this regard without Necromancy to compensate. But of course, if someone has some insights that contradicts this, I'm all ears so to speak.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
          Personally, I adore the notion from BJD, that they are a South American lineage that is pretending to be a bloodline of an European clan for survival. In the setting however, I think they are descended from Troglodytia. Whom may have been a childe of Lazarus.
          If Troglodytia is 4'th gen., then yes, she could've been the childe of Lazarus and Baron Samedi' sire, otherwise no, as Baron Samedi is 5'th gen.
          Granted, Troglodytia clan weakness does seem identical the one of the Samedi, but there could be a reason for this.
          Considering the fact the Cappadocians that were left had grown disillusioned with vampirism and rarely embraced new ones, it's quite conceivable that those that were embraced were inflicted with a worse clan weakness than that of the Cappadocians, because the clan founder had been diablerized, and thus the clan weakness they would pass on to newly embraced vampires would be that clan weakness - a corpse in advanced decomposition. Although, from what I've read in the Encyclopedia Vampirica, this particular version of the Cappadocian clan weakness - advanced decay - is a Cappadocian clan weakness phenomenon - Troglodytia was ONE OF the first members of the Cappadocian bloodline where this phenomenon has occurred. Notice she was ONE OF the first, but not necessarily the first. Granted, it would fit with the Queen Mother title.
          Last edited by Incarnate; 03-30-2021, 07:58 PM.

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          • #6

            Originally posted by Incarnate View Post

            Yeah, the Samedi have a lot going against them in that regard, not only is their appearance against them but also their smell (pre-V5), and they can't even compensate using ghouls, as it wouldn't even make things better, because as a mortal having the stench of being isn't exactly a very sociable trait.

            Here is a scary thought with regards to information control, just consider a Nosferatu using Necromancy to gain even more information control, no one would be able to be better at it than them.

            With regards to an average Samedi being as ignorant an average Caitiff, I disagree with, but important factor here, is what defined as the average? However, even without knowing this, the average Samedi has it's clan weakness working very much against it, where an average Caitiff wouldn't have that issue, so in that regard it's lot better. But exactly what is an "average" Caitiff? The reason I say this is, a Caitiff is very versatile, so could easily be much better at information gathering. The average Samedi wouldn't have access to level 3 Obfuscate, although, it should be a priority. The average Caitiff doesn't even necessarily need Obfuscate to able to be better at gathering information than an average Samedi, as there are various disciplines depending on how they're used can be used for information gathering.

            But yeah, I have a hard time following why Samedi would be better at information gathering than Nosferatu, as the Nosferatu are in so many way far superior in this regard without Necromancy to compensate. But of course, if someone has some insights that contradicts this, I'm all ears so to speak.
            I'm not talking about powers, I'm talking mainly about organization. Nos send information freely among each other, something that is unheard of among other clans.It's very possible for one Nos to learn information, pass it freely to other Nos, and for a Nos who had no part in gathering the information to profit from it. The implicit assumption is that that Nos will also freely pass information he learns down the line, and so Nos A can gather information that ends up profiting Nos B, because Nos B will one day gather information that profits Nos A.

            Caitiff don't do that. If a Caitiff has info, he hoards it so he can profit personally. That's not a knock on Caitiff morals, it's just that they don't have a clan culture going back thousands of years like the Nos do.

            The Samedi don't have the numbers to do anything like that. The whole gossiping culture that makes the Nos the premiere information brokers simply can't exist, because a Samedi can easily be the only Samedi for a long distance.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CajunKhan View Post
              I'm not talking about powers, I'm talking mainly about organization. Nos send information freely among each other, something that is unheard of among other clans.It's very possible for one Nos to learn information, pass it freely to other Nos, and for a Nos who had no part in gathering the information to profit from it. The implicit assumption is that that Nos will also freely pass information he learns down the line, and so Nos A can gather information that ends up profiting Nos B, because Nos B will one day gather information that profits Nos A.

              Caitiff don't do that. If a Caitiff has info, he hoards it so he can profit personally. That's not a knock on Caitiff morals, it's just that they don't have a clan culture going back thousands of years like the Nos do.

              The Samedi don't have the numbers to do anything like that. The whole gossiping culture that makes the Nos the premiere information brokers simply can't exist, because a Samedi can easily be the only Samedi for a long distance.
              Yes, from the point of organization and culture you're most definitely right,
              Though, the individual Samedi might have earned the respect and status among some groups where it can freely obtain the information in much the same way the Nosferatu, but thats something every vampire could. Besides, it would be wrong to say that the Samedi are great information gatherers, if this is the way for them to get their information. So yeah, I agree with you on this.

              Comment


              • #8
                They're a Gangrel bloodline
                Fortitude is for masochists.

                For getting information, as said, the Nosferatu obviously have a better organizational structure, though it should be noted that Samedi and Nosferatu seem to have some kind of alliance going on; strength can be celebrated, but weakness is really what binds clans together, and the Samedi and Nosferatu share the same weakness (Well, the Nosferatu are allegedly hunted by the Niktuku, but that's besides the point). A close relationship is to be expected. Hell, I run it as -you need a necromancer, ask a nosferatu, they'll get you in contact with a Samedi-.

                One big advantage of Samedi is that Necromancy is generally a more secure method of information gathering than Animalism. A place might be to dangerous for a Nosferatu or his Rats to be around for any length of time, and electronic surveillance has counters, but few have counters for ghostly surveilance. A Rat can be compromised by anyone with even low levels of animalism, and that's a fairly common discipline. You can scan for ghosts with Auspex, but there's not often much you can do when you find them this way.

                Thanatosis is a minor help, but not to be entirely dismissed; personally, I think the folds skill is kinda redundant when you don't use the majority of your organs and can just store anything in your guts anyway, but it's fine. Turning yourself into a pile of ash is... If you're infiltrating a building, it's better than dirt (Though worse than Visceraticka) But, actually, if you combine -I am Dust- with Obfuscate (You may learn to obfuscate while sleeping, it's a merit) then you can be -Perfectly Innocuous pile of dirt not to be paid attention too- and then you're the ultimate spy.


                Generally, worse at information gathering, but they excel as specialists and can do some jobs Nosferatu won't.

                ...I actually read they functioned more as mercenaries than spies. but anyone can be a mercenary really so...


                Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                • #9
                  Where was it stated that the Samedi are better at gathering information than the Nosferatu? I don't remember that being part of their bloodline description. Is it an element in V5? I don't remember that in earlier editions. Certainly Necromancy is useful, but it also has drawbacks.

                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  Hell, I run it as -you need a necromancer, ask a nosferatu, they'll get you in contact with a Samedi-.
                  That's not a bad idea. I think I'll steal it. There's definitely a logic to it. I doubt most Nosferatu know a Samedi, but the Nosferatu are tight and eventually a message sent among them will reach someone who does know one.

                  Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                  One big advantage of Samediis that Necromancy is generally a more secure method of information gathering than Animalism.
                  There's probably lots of things Necromancy does better than Animalism.

                  But I've also heard people claim Necromancy gets you a lot of information for free, and I always been leery of this claim, as I think it makes a lot of assumptions that might not be true. Back when I LARPED, I saw a lot of abuse of the Necromancy power by Giovanni PCs because STs didn't want to bother with a lot of practical issues or learn about the Wraith setting. While in theory this can be true, I think it is much harder in practice. Necromancy should be just as useful as any other Discipline, but it's still one that should require an ST to set reasonable limits.

                  To summon a ghost, you need to know their name (or some supernatural means to discover a connection) which means you need to know someone dead is already a ghost. Most of the dead do not become wraiths (or if they do are subsequently lost in various ways). So it is a crapshoot if you don't already have extensive knowledge of wraiths. Then if Summon Soul (Sepulchre Path) is successful, you can then use Compel Soul to ask questions, it's to stuff they already know. Depending on the edition, it does allow you to assign a task to the ghost (later editions would be grant this level much more power than earlier ones), but that is going to anger the ghost even more. You don't know what it can do to you after the compulsion fades, if it alerts its Circle of buddies to help in revenge, or if it runs to help to the Hierarchy or friends among the Heretics or Renegades? Worse, what if it turns out to be a Spectre?

                  So there are real dangers. Inexperienced users of Necromancy can make a lot of mistakes that will backfire on them. Experienced users have enough knowledge to know and minimize the risks, but have their own agendas and won't consider most requests by outsiders as it would only create additional risks for little benefit for them.

                  Furthermore, depending on what level of detail you want, a wraith may not be able to get it. It's up to the ST. We know the Shadowlands are heavily based on the Skinlands and that wraiths can observe in general what goes on in the Skinlands as the living do. But it is not the same - what they observe is tainted by Oblivion to a degree. Everything is recognizable, but it's not a slavish imitation. Everything bears the taint of Oblivion. Everything is dismal, gloomy, and squalid. Even brand new items appear chipped, dented, peeling, and crumbling. While that won't make a difference if all you want is something general (follow this guy and tell me who he talks to), if details matter then you may get bad or missing information.

                  Any wraith physically describing someone might use descriptions that don't correspond to reality since Deathsight might deceive him. And if you want something in detail like what is he writing down in that diary or ledger (which is a request I see come up a lot), I would rule that just like Garou can't make out those details by peeking through the Umbra, that wraiths can't see that fine level of detail either. Too much gloom, and the pages look moldy and the ink is faded or smeared. Or perhaps the words appear as something disconcerting and morbid. This is an ST call though I think it's important people understand a wraith perceives the world differently. I like to compare it to watching an old movie on an old style TV set. No restoration, no HD, and a bunch of static or bad reception at times (depending on the presence of Oblivion).

                  I am not saying one can't use Necromancy to spy. You can. But context is important, and I think it's less useful than some people think once you take into practical considerations.

                  The Giovanni should have certain advantages in this regard. They act as a family unit and can mentor and support new necromancers. A lot of their wraithly servants are the ghosts of family members, some even bound to them. These are advantages that lone necromancers, like most Samedi, don't have. But the Giovanni likely lose a lot of those advantages if they go to a new city where any local knowledge must be built from scratch. And Giovanni wraiths (or any wraithly allies to other Necromancers) are still interacting in a world where there are lots of threats (maelstroms, spectres, hostile wraiths, some places ARE restricted to ordinary wraiths - good luck getting into a place where the Hiearchy Citadel is). If you rely on a wraithly retainer, and it falls into a Harrowing you're out of luck for a while.

                  For me, using Necromancy in the game means the ST has to introduce a whole new perspective and setting to their chronicle. It's quite a challenge. I don't think it needs to be detailed more thoroughly than anything else, but it is something that should be roleplayed through. To me, the fun thing is introducing that new world to players so they can roleplay through it. But from my perspective, many players who want Necromancy don't want to roleplay through it. They just want a power that other characters can't cancel, and get annoyed when it turns out ghosts exist independently to them and obstacles turn up to their plans. (I find similar issues when PCs learn Auspex 5 and want their astral bodies to essentially do the same thing - spy and learn without encountering difficulty.) Now if all this is just a seldom used trump card, I don't give PCs any issues. As I said before, Necromancy should be just as useful as any other Discipline. But if they use it a lot, then I introduce the whole world to them in all its "glory". Just like there can be complicating factors to the use of Obfuscate or Auspex, the same applies to Necromancy.
                  Last edited by Black Fox; 04-03-2021, 06:38 PM.

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                  • #10
                    First of all, I think it's important to note, that the discussion about being better at gathering information than the Nosferatu, at least for me, was based on their clan disciplines, not any other displines they could've learned.

                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    They're a Gangrel bloodline
                    Where is that written? I've found so much that not only points towards Cappadocian, but also supports it, and there is even a Cappadocian flaw in their clanbook. I believe this flaw is 4 points or something like that, specifically makes them subject to continues and advanced decomposition, like the Samedi's clan weakness. So, I'd definitely like to know the source of that claim.


                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    For getting information, as said, the Nosferatu obviously have a better organizational structure, though it should be noted that Samedi and Nosferatu seem to have some kind of alliance going on; strength can be celebrated, but weakness is really what binds clans together, and the Samedi and Nosferatu share the same weakness (Well, the Nosferatu are allegedly hunted by the Niktuku, but that's besides the point). A close relationship is to be expected. Hell, I run it as -you need a necromancer, ask a nosferatu, they'll get you in contact with a Samedi-.
                    Actually, the Samedi and Nosferatu, they do NOT share the same clan weakness. The Nosferatu are essentially just horribly disfigured, where the Samedi are afflicted with essentially a constant state of decay, so those two are definitely not the same. Sure early on, they're comparable in terms of appearance, but thats about it.

                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    One big advantage of Samedi is that Necromancy is generally a more secure method of information gathering than Animalism. A place might be to dangerous for a Nosferatu or his Rats to be around for any length of time, and electronic surveillance has counters, but few have counters for ghostly surveilance. A Rat can be compromised by anyone with even low levels of animalism, and that's a fairly common discipline. You can scan for ghosts with Auspex, but there's not often much you can do when you find them this way.
                    This is assuming that every Samedi has Necromancy, which the average Samedi does not, and most definitely also depend on which edition the game is based on. Originally, every Samedi had access to this from the start through Necromancy being a clan discipline, but in 2nd ed. revised and V20, that was changed. Hence why the question in regards to why they're regarded as being better information gatherers than the Nosferatu, when they actually since 2nd ed. revised they did not have Necromancy as a clan discipline, and as such the average Samedi does not have Necromancy.

                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Thanatosis is a minor help, but not to be entirely dismissed; personally, I think the folds skill is kinda redundant when you don't use the majority of your organs and can just store anything in your guts anyway, but it's fine. Turning yourself into a pile of ash is... If you're infiltrating a building, it's better than dirt (Though worse than Visceraticka) But, actually, if you combine -I am Dust- with Obfuscate (You may learn to obfuscate while sleeping, it's a merit) then you can be -Perfectly Innocuous pile of dirt not to be paid attention too- and then you're the ultimate spy.
                    Why would you need to use Obfuscate in combination with Thanatosis, when litterally you ARE a pile of ash, besides Obfuscate also does have some actual limitations, where first of all, they're mental illusions, second, the "illusion" is towards masking your appearance as SOMEONE else, not something else.

                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    Generally, worse at information gathering, but they excel as specialists and can do some jobs Nosferatu won't.

                    ...I actually read they functioned more as mercenaries than spies. but anyone can be a mercenary really so...
                    It does hold some merit, that they can do some jobs the Nosferatu won't, or even cannot do.


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                      Where was it stated that the Samedi are better at gathering information than the Nosferatu? I don't remember that being part of their bloodline description. Is it an element in V5? I don't remember that in earlier editions. Certainly Necromancy is useful, but it also has drawbacks.
                      I'm actually not entirely sure where I read it, I just remember reading about it recently in some of the material, and I'm not about to read it all again just to find it.

                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                      There's probably lots of things Necromancy does better than Animalism.

                      But I've also heard people claim Necromancy gets you a lot of information for free, and I always been leery of this claim, as I think it makes a lot of assumptions that might not be true. Back when I LARPED, I saw a lot of abuse of the Necromancy power by Giovanni PCs because STs didn't want to bother with a lot of practical issues or learn about the Wraith setting. While in theory this can be true, I think it is much harder in practice. Necromancy should be just as useful as any other Discipline, but it's still one that should require an ST to set reasonable limits.
                      There definitely are many things it does, and does better than Animalism, but it also way more dangerous territory. I think, that some are getting away with a lot more than what they should be able to with it, because it does require a lot of things, and it's use is highly circumstancial, but more importantly - heavily dependent on the STs knowledge and experience with regards to the displine and very much so with the wraith setting.

                      Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                      I am not saying one can't use Necromancy to spy. You can. But context is important, and I think it's less useful than some people think once you take into practical considerations.

                      The Giovanni should have certain advantages in this regard. They act as a family unit and can mentor and support new necromancers. A lot of their wraithly servants are the ghosts of family members, some even bound to them. These are advantages that lone necromancers, like most Samedi, don't have. But the Giovanni likely lose a lot of those advantages if they go to a new city where any local knowledge must be built from scratch. And Giovanni wraiths (or any wraithly allies to other Necromancers) are still interacting in a world where there are lots of threats (maelstroms, spectres, hostile wraiths, some places ARE restricted to ordinary wraiths - good luck getting into a place where the Hiearchy Citadel is). If you rely on a wraithly retainer, and it falls into a Harrowing you're out of luck for a while.

                      For me, using Necromancy in the game means the ST has to introduce a whole new perspective and setting to their chronicle. It's quite a challenge. I don't think it needs to be detailed more thoroughly than anything else, but it is something that should be roleplayed through. To me, the fun thing is introducing that new world to players so they can roleplay through it. But from my perspective, many players who want Necromancy don't want to roleplay through it. They just want a power that other characters can't cancel, and get annoyed when it turns out ghosts exist independently to them and obstacles turn up to their plans. (I find similar issues when PCs learn Auspex 5 and want their astral bodies to essentially do the same thing - spy and learn without encountering difficulty.) Now if all this is just a seldom used trump card, I don't give PCs any issues. As I said before, Necromancy should be just as useful as any other Discipline. But if they use it a lot, then I introduce the whole world to them in all its "glory". Just like there can be complicating factors to the use of Obfuscate or Auspex, the same applies to Necromancy.
                      I completely agree, context is important, and so is having a lot of in game working knowledge about the beings from the shadowlands that one wants to use for whatever purpose, because without it, nothing is going to happen. It doesn't really matter whether it's a Giovanni or a Samedi, a lone kindred practicing necromancy trying to use wraithly beings for his or her benefit, is going to be a lot more difficult than one that has an entire organization behind it to support it.

                      The last part of your post really does underline many of the actual issues with why Necromancy is either too powerful or too weak, but also the very reason why people even want to get Necromancy rings so true, at least for most players. I like the way you handle Necromancy.

                      However, back to topic.
                      From 2nd. ed. revised, the Samedi doesn't actually have access to Necromancy, so it begs the question, who did they learn it from? It seems to be supported that they could've learned it from the Giovanni.

                      Apparently, who the actual progenitor of clan Samedi seems to be unknown, but even so, there are several possibilities.
                      As mentioned, Baron Samedi, is listed as 5'th gen. and his sire to be Queen Mother, I don't know who this is a reference to. IF this is to be a reference to Troglodytia, then she would have to be 4'th gen. But do we know for certain what generation she is and who actually sired her? I haven't been able to find any solid evidence of this. But IF Baron's sire isn't actually the Queen Mother, then who? As mentioned before, Lazarus is considered to a candidate for this.

                      With regards, to what clan the Samedi is actually a bloodline of, there are a lot evidence that points towards and supports clan Cappadocian. The most notable piece of evidence, is in my opinion, the fact that clan Cappadocian has a flaw that describes Samedi's clan flaw and more - Horrific Appearance (3 point flaw).

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                      • #12
                        I was joking about the Gangrel Bloodline, but they are very similar: Fortitude, Thanatosis (protean) and also obfuscate (gangrel are quite adaptable) and the weakness isn't so different (both end up making you look like a monster)

                        RE- Pile of Ash.
                        If there's a pile of ash somewhere in your house or place of work, it's very likely someone's going to sweep it up and place it in the bin. Remaining unseen through obfuscate will prevent you waking up limbless and covered with rotten foodstuffs within an iron cage

                        RE: Samedi with necromancy.
                        The Gist is that Thanatosis popped up among the bloodline as they devolved; the first, low gen Samedi are going to have necromancy instead of Thanatosis. The strong cultural/religious ties to the Caribbean faiths is also a great source for them to develop necromancy, since vampires learn real magic by taking mortal practices and adding enough effort and Vitae. I'd imagine Samedi have somewhat longer sire-child dependencies so they can pass on their necromantic knowledge. I don't imagine many Samedi hold a candle compared to dedicated bloodlines of death, but getting 3 dots of the sephulcre path is what I'd call competent; most of the things a Samedi necromancer will want to do can be accomplished with just that. If you tie them to the nosferatu like I've suggested, it's likely they could network and seek out very old members of the bloodline for advanced tutelage.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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                        • #13
                          It's pretty blatantly hinted throughout Revised that the Samedi are the descendants of the Infitiores, and this is carried through into V20. As for whether the Baron's sire was Lazarus or Troglodytia, the latter would fit with the Queen Mother.

                          It's worth remembering that Lazarus has pretended to be lots of other people (and vice versa), and the Capuchin (who is sometimes Lazarus) has been a sponsor/mentor for the various Cappadocian offshoots.

                          So it's entirely possible Troglodytia is the Baron's sire but Lazarus is his 'adopted' sire or mentor. That relationship could easily spark the rumour that the Baron is the childe of Lazarus.

                          Remember also that the same thing happens with the Harbingers: Unre is occasionally rumoured to be a childe of Lazarus, but if she's Constancia, she is actually the childe of Japheth. The Harbingers are also called Lazarenes, which seems to be a nod to their patron.

                          In short, I don't think you can read too much into Lazarus being rumoured to be the Baron's sire, as it's a common rumour and just as likely refers to his role as a high profile manipulator among all the various fragments of the Clan of Death.

                          ETA: Some bloodlines technically have multiple founders, too. It's entirely possible Troglodytia and at least one or two other Cappadocians with the same flaw went off to spawn the Samedi. Bloodlines can arise as much from social groupings that become a cohesive group (convergent evolution) as much as from one vampire deviating from their sire's heritage (divergent evolution). That might even allow them to encompass one or more Drowned Legacies and/or Nosferatu, if you want a truly expansive origin story.
                          Last edited by adambeyoncelowe; 04-01-2021, 06:30 AM.

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                          • #14
                            In hindsight, i must admit with a certain hilarity that everything in the current debate of canon is completely utter wrong in my most recent games.


                            - The Harbingers of Skulls are not Cappadocians, never joined the Sabbat and their enemies the Pisanob - it was not the Giovanni who betrayed the bonds to their undead masters under the jungle pyramids. The Harbingers are what some kindred scholars have recently taken to call Drowned Legacies.

                            - Japheth has been dust since the turn of the Middle Ages. A recent return of the Cappadocians has come to be through the actions of the Inconnu called Mahatma - who is not one of them - that resulted in the discovery of the Vault of the Emperors under the ruins of Istanbul/Constantinople/Byzantium and the rescue of the methuselah known as Bizar, that has dedicated his efforts to exploring what slivers of his line he can find and now currently directs much of his focus to the most hidden tomb-vaults under Kaymakli.

                            - The Capuchin is Constancia, that is 100% on the side of her childe, Ambrogino Giovanni.

                            - Lazarus forsook the Cappadocians long before their fall. In fact the might be among the leadership of either Setites or Baali, if not both.

                            - The Baron's origins are most confused, dubious and there is a not small possibility of him being a rogue childe of the setite methuselah Ghede tainted by strange experiments with diableries, soul-eating and mummies, a mysterious drowned legacy ancient or even more strangely, a Risen that somehow turned himself kindred (or is it the contrary?). Either way, no one really knows and the elder is quite notorious for tall tales and blatant trickery when it comes to questions about his origins.

                            - Something in Russia seems to resemble the Samedi bloodline to no small degree, though far older and more powerful than any of them. Which connection exists between them, if any, is a riddle yet to be solved. The kindred who have met or heard of this elusive being know it by the name Koschei the Deathless.


                            And some other stuff here and there, but i digress and better not derail things too much from topic, i guess.
                            Last edited by Baaldam; 04-01-2021, 09:55 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Not only in the third and fourth edition was blatantly hinted that the Samedi descended from the Infitiores, through Trogloditya, but also in Vampire the Eternal Struggle she is the most powerful and ancient Samedi, more than the Baron. You can search their cards and art in google.

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