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  • #16
    Originally posted by Justycar View Post
    Not only in the third and fourth edition was blatantly hinted that the Samedi descended from the Infitiores, through Trogloditya, but also in Vampire the Eternal Struggle she is the most powerful and ancient Samedi, more than the Baron. You can search their cards and art in google.
    Ooh, nice catch! Thanks. That answers that, then.

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    • #17
      If I could be permitted a small digression that does not deserve its own thread:

      V20 and previous Giovanni material has often stated that the Putanesca do not get taught any Necromancy, and do in fact not know of its existence. But elsewhere it seems a basic item of kindred lore that the Giovanni can do things with ghosts. How much knowledge about that could the Putanesca actually lack?

      Edit: Baaldam I found the thread on the Crypt of the Emperors absolutely fascinating!
      Last edited by Trollroot; 04-03-2021, 10:31 AM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Trollroot View Post
        If I could be permitted a small digression that does not deserve its own thread:

        V20 and previous Giovanni material has often stated that the Putanesca do not get taught any Necromancy, and do in fact not know of its existence. But elsewhere it seems a basic item of kindred lore that the Giovanni can do things with ghosts. How much knowledge about that could the Putanesca actually lack?

        Edit: Baaldam I found the thread on the Crypt of the Emperors absolutely fascinating!
        Honestly the Putanesca (or the Puttanesca as they're called in V20 and V5) not knowing Necromancy is relic a bygone early time VtM as only the first Giovanni Clan Book claims they don't know Necromancy (which is presented entirely from a Giovanni that is dismissive of them already so take it with a grain of salt) while the Rev Ed CB (which is also being presented from the mouth of a Giovanni albeit one that seems less biased against them) simply says they have limited knowledge of Necromancy. V20 Lore of the Clans barely mentions the Puttanesca, giving them one sentence in the Minor Families and says nothing about their lack of Necromancy. Likewise V5 doesn't talk about that at all.

        My thoughts is that Puttanesca know Necromancy, they just don't specialize in it as their expertise and role in the Clan lie elsewhere. Those that claim they don't know Necromancy are simply Giovanni outside the family that either look down on them, slandering rivals and those just generally ignorant of the Puttanesca.

        Because frankly it does not make sense that Augustus and the Elders would keep them ignorant. Sure, they're focus is on the particularly dirty crime work and brute muscle for the Clan but Necromancy would still be a very useful asset for that work. And to deprive a family of Necromancy would weaken that family and in turn the Clan.


        Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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        • #19
          I don't think making the Puttanescas work easier ever was any kind of priority with the Giovanni elders. And I can see reasons for not teaching them Necromancy. The Puttanesca are not at all trusted to be competent outside their narrow niche, and the Giovanni do not want Necromancy passed on to outsiders. I can see them simply not trusting the Puttanesca with those kind of secrets. Also that family does not recruit from a personality profile that seems like it would be very good at it.

          But what I did wonder at was how possible it was that they did not know. The Giovanni Clan Novel, written by Justin Achilli, was very clear that it was a shock to the protagonist to discover ghosts and the Giovanni connection to them. That was revised era, I'm pretty sure. I could have sworn there was a side comment on it in Lore of the Clans too, but I cant seem to find it, so I must be confusing it with something else.

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          • #20
            That is the key. The Necromancy was not an open matter in the Clan, the Giovanni were secretive, the even maintain the Necromancy aside from older families as the Milliner or the Dunsirn, who were assimilated for the money and lack ruthlessness. The Puttanesca were the mafiosos and the enforcers of the clan, the were the Potence of the "clan disciplines", may a few of them have known necromancy, but most of them have not. They are so despised by other Giovanni that they were named "Bitcheson."
            Last edited by Justycar; 04-04-2021, 06:22 AM.

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            • #21
              If it were me, it'd suck to have subordinates that have a full in-clan discipline they're not using. It's not good for their loyalty, nor effectiveness, Even if I don't trust them with -good- necromancy like Sephulcre, perhaps It'd be wise to see fit to offload some garbage onto them; Bones, Corpse in the Monster, Four humours... Stuff that doesn't threaten your powerbase but instills a sense of gratitude/some usefulness in limited applications (though these have the problem of being overt masquerade violations. Hmm...)


              Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
              There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                If it were me, it'd suck to have subordinates that have a full in-clan discipline they're not using. It's not good for their loyalty, nor effectiveness, Even if I don't trust them with -good- necromancy like Sephulcre, perhaps It'd be wise to see fit to offload some garbage onto them; Bones, Corpse in the Monster, Four humours... Stuff that doesn't threaten your powerbase but instills a sense of gratitude/some usefulness in limited applications (though these have the problem of being overt masquerade violations. Hmm...)
                Indeed. And that's the thing, there is a lot of internal loyalty within the Clan. It's a Family. Sure, you have have your beefs with individuals but at the end of the night, you're still loyal to your Family. Those younger Giovanni that revolted in the events led up to the Family Reunion were not revolting against the Clan, they were fed up with Augustus' BS about the Endless Night and the rigid control on power the old, foolish Elders had and their inability to cope with the changes going on in the world.

                The Puttanesca may be thugs and crooks but they are still part of the Family and carry out things necessary for the Family. Hamstringing them by not teaching them at least the basics of Necromancy undermines that. It makes them weaker and less effective. More than that, it will make them resentful. And that's not a good thing for a family that's primary purpose is to be the Clan's muscle and carry out their dirty deeds. So give them Necromancy. They don't need to teach them everything about it. Teach them the Common Paths and when you get the occasional Puttanesca of particular talent for Necromancy, teach them the rarer stuff. You keep the Puttanesca happy and provide them tools to be better at their work.

                Though it should be noted that just because they are thugs and crooks of the Clan does not make them all dumb brutes. In fact, the Giovanni by their nature largely only Embrace those that are particularly capable and talented. The mortal society within the Clan's families are quite competitive and cutthroat. Few dumb thug Puttanesca are going to get the Embrace. So they're not likely to go around violating the Masquerade like idiots.


                Homo sapiens. What an inventive, invincible species. It's only a few million years since they crawled up out of the mud and learned to walk. Puny, defenceless bipeds. They've survived flood, famine and plague. They've survived cosmic wars and holocausts. And now, here they are, out among the stars, waiting to begin a new life. Ready to outsit eternity. They're indomitable. Indomitable.

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                • #23
                  I see the Giovanni/Putanesca and Necromancy thing to fall into the issue of roleplay that is often overlooked by players. To use Necromancy, you need to roll your Occult which is a Knowledge trait that can't be used unless you actually possess that Knowledge. How many goomba, mafioso types are going to have any points in Occult, much less possess enough lore to use Necromancy responsibly?

                  Realistically out of that milieu, you are going to have very few Putanesca who have the inclination or natural talent to do so.

                  This is an aspect that often gets overlooked in play because when you are playing RPGs, if you need points in a skill you just spend the XP and you have that skill. Both PCs and STs overlook that. And it's fine for the PCs. But the NPCs should be played a little better. And sometimes that means sub-optimal choices from the perspective of a PC. Not to mention that having three dots of an ability is supposed to be like a post graduate degree. Again, in an RPG, the time and commitment that takes to master is usually just handwaved by the ST because the PCs just want to have fun. But if we treat the setting seriously, that's a big effort especially in a field that is esoteric and requires a lot of independent study since it is not taught at universities.

                  I know a lot of players don't care about things like that. But while I let the PCs off from that kind of thing because it gets in the way of having fun, I do try to keep it realistic for the NPCs in order to have a serious setting for the PCs to play in.

                  If you assume the Putanesca to be much like a real or fictional mafia family, what exactly is our model here? Do any of us really think Vito, Sonny, or Michael Corleone is going to learn enough occult to use Necromancy? And these fictional characters are much more intelligent and classy than actual mafiosos. If we ask that about the Barzinis, Tattaglias, and Solozzo, the answer is no. Going for more realism, what about the characters in Goodfellas? Do you think Henry Hill is going to learn Necromancy? Or Jimmy or Tommy?

                  Now maybe you have the oddball member of the gangster family who does have the inclination and intelligence to do so. How well is he going to fit in with that family? Will he be the one chosen for the next embrace, or someone who is more useful to the Putanesca's actual activities? It's likely relatively few.

                  And if you go by the original clan description, the Giovanni only pick 3 people in a generation to become vampires for the entire clan. It's supposed to be small. That's like 1 person per decade. In that, how many Putanesca, as opposed to the other mortal families that make up the clan, get picked? Out of that low number, how many people appropriate to being a necromancer gets picked as opposed to someone who fits in a crime family? I'm sure there may be one, but not much more than that.

                  If the Giovanni brought the Putanesca into their clan, it's because their different skills (crime) are useful to them. They want members who contribute to that. If they want more necromancers, they have plenty of other families who can do it better. If I hire someone to work in the mailroom, it's because I want them to get the mail delivered to the right people. Pepe Silvia is expecting his mail. I don't want someone who doesn't want to be in the mailroom, but has delusions of grandeur to be a software developer or nuclear engineer.

                  I see Putanesca wanting to learn Necromancy to be in the same category of Mac thinking he does not need to do his job in the mailroom so he can move up like in the movie the Secret of My Success.

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