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  • #46
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    I mostly wonder how many vampires meet the criteria of being humane enough to attract the CoO whilst also being politically savvy enough to survive long enough to join.
    I don't see the Children as actively recruiting. In fact, given their need for secrecy, the risks far outweigh any gains. Simply because someone has high levels of humanity does not mean they have any desire to join the Children, nor do the Children have any desire for them to join. This is an order of ascetic monk vampires in discipleship to the Great Undying King. They already know most vampires aren't interested in this (and let's be honest, probably no PCs. The Children are really just an NPC faction in the setting).

    Insofar that the Children add members to their sect, it is because vampires learn about them independently, pursued the (or at least their teachings), and at some point come to the attention of the Children who evaluate them as candidates. If the candidate is rejected, the Children would remain hidden. If the candidate is considered acceptable, then an existing Children would make contact and begin the process of discipleship. And only after a period of work and evaluation, would that vampire ever be made an offer to actually join. The Children need to see the candidate essentially performing a kind of spiritual pilgrimage. Some amount of spiritual growth needs to be seen for the Children to actively provide them with any information, contact, and eventually initiation into their order.

    Another potential source of contact is when the Children are trying to destroy a particular vampire, and in the course of their operations meet others who can further their aims. However, I think this is much more likely to be done via a kind of spycraft, and the Children never identify themselves as Osirans. They'll use a plausible enough cover story. Then they disappear. Certain vampires they interacted with may intrigue them, but they likely only go on a kind of watch list.

    Now new members do join the Children at some point. But these must be a very small number over a long time period. The Osirans aren't trying to build an army. They are an order of ascetic vampires trying to negate their Curse/Damnation while fighting a clandestine war against those trying to destroy them. Their primary issue should be to preserve the teachings of Osiris and secondly to destroy their enemies (most likely when commanded by the Grand Undying King). Recruitment is likely down on their list of priorities.

    So for the perspective of how do the Children recruit, I think a better route would be "how do the Children disseminate the teachings of Osiris?"

    I think this is when we talk about front organizations and the like. In mortal culture, this could be through Egyptological societies and studies, pseudo-Eastern/New Age mysticism, maybe even self-help groups, therapists, and the like. Since this is directed towards mortals and not vampires, there's not a lot here that is useful to vampires. But it has the purposes of 1) getting certain ideas in the public consciousness that can make their way to vampires, and 2) building some kind of actual "real" (WoD) occult group behind it that might attract the kind of vampire they are looking for. This could suggest there is some kind of obscure "school" (I think any real organization would be too hierarchical, structured, centralized for the Children's purpose) of Egyptian style Sorcery, most of whose "members" are likely ignorant. But there may be a few trusted mortals who know a lot more about the Children (who might appear as just truly aware magicians, or some kind of supernatural (perhaps divine) entity but not vampires) and can be entrusted to carry out orders on their behalf.

    In terms of vampires, the Children need to be much more secretive and circumspect. In so far that they run "black ops" style hits on their enemies, they might leave certain messages or clues among anyone who helped them that serve the eventual purpose of getting the word out. And then leave it up them to spread any rumors. And perhaps over time, they may even recruit certain agents (useful and trusted allies who nevertheless are rejected as future members) to disseminate other information for them. This would be a combination of disinformation and propaganda selectively spread over a long period of time.

    That would establish a certain body of lore collectively known among the greater vampire community. Then as vampires self-select themselves to follow these teachings or learn more about them, it gives the Children a certain amount of time to observe and evaluate them. And instead of leading a vampire directly to the Children, it just leads to a variety of front organizations (which might be actual Buddhist temples, Christian monasteries, or whatever) that can reveal just enough to the vampire seeker that they are on the right trail, to keep them going, while giving an opportunity to the Children that a candidate is still looking for their teachings. That way if it is one of their enemies attempting to infiltrate them, at most they lose a few unwitting pawns who may know of the Children only though allusions, euphemisms, or legends but can't possibly provide any useful information to their enemies.

    Kind of like how both Dr Strange and Dr Doom pursued the Himalayan monks/hermits that taught them secrets of the mystic arts in their comic book origins. They pursue one rumor to another. STs wanting to do this for one of the PCs in their chronicle, probably needs to run it as a kind of Dan Brown style occult mystery/conspiracy where the PC begins to figure out enigmas and clues that gets them closer and closer.
    Last edited by Black Fox; 11-26-2021, 10:58 PM.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
      I'm a big fan of noir influences and think the detective genre would lose something if there were other heroes than the protagonists. The police should always be corrupt and institutions.
      Most noir/hard boiled/detective stories have allies and friends of the hero that he can rely on. Batman has Commissioner Gordon. Spenser has Hawk. Mike Hammer's best friend is a captain of homicide for the NYPD. Many detectives have that "one old friend" on the force who is honest. Even police officials who complain about the detective or harass them often come to their aid (Inspector Lestrange for Holmes, Inspector Cramer for Nero Wolfe & Archie Goodwin). The Shadow has a variety of agents who support him.

      Some of these allies are weaker than the protagonist and others are more powerful. Some are worse morally and others better. But they are just secondary to the specific story being told regardless of their position in the setting.

      I think very few noir or hardboiled heroes actually have no one who helps them, and they are all on their own. Maybe the Continental Op, but even he has an entire detective organization behind him theoretically.

      So I think it is perfectly fine in the WoD setting for there to be the Children of Osiris and still keep that gritty noir feel. It's just that they should never usurp the attention of the ST/chronicle away from the NPCs or solve the problem for them so that the PCs are superfluous. (Too bad there's a lot of awful Vampire adventures out there that did just that - just not with any Children of Osiris.)

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      • #48
        I find the Children of Osiris work pretty well as a sort of mysterious side group that can sometimes help or hinder the PCs. They're also great when I'm running a game of Mummy or Werewolf of whatever and need a group of friendly(er) vampires to serve as assistances or aids to the player characters.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
          Most noir/hard boiled/detective stories have allies and friends of the hero that he can rely on. Batman has Commissioner Gordon. Spenser has Hawk. Mike Hammer's best friend is a captain of homicide for the NYPD. Many detectives have that "one old friend" on the force who is honest. Even police officials who complain about the detective or harass them often come to their aid (Inspector Lestrange for Holmes, Inspector Cramer for Nero Wolfe & Archie Goodwin). The Shadow has a variety of agents who support him.

          Some of these allies are weaker than the protagonist and others are more powerful. Some are worse morally and others better. But they are just secondary to the specific story being told regardless of their position in the setting.

          I think very few noir or hardboiled heroes actually have no one who helps them, and they are all on their own. Maybe the Continental Op, but even he has an entire detective organization behind him theoretically.

          So I think it is perfectly fine in the WoD setting for there to be the Children of Osiris and still keep that gritty noir feel. It's just that they should never usurp the attention of the ST/chronicle away from the NPCs or solve the problem for them so that the PCs are superfluous. (Too bad there's a lot of awful Vampire adventures out there that did just that - just not with any Children of Osiris.)
          We could take a page from D&D's book, and have NPCs that might be more powerful than the PCs, but consequently have a lot more on their plate. They see things from an elevated perspective, and so can't be everywhere at once. Or else, as is the case with the Osirans, they're organizationally constrained, and thus can't always deal with things themselves without massively exposing their presence. In either case, they delegate. Pointing PCs towards tasks that need doing, to free themselves up to tackle matters more pressing elsewhere.

          In the Forgotten Realms, the Masked Lords of Waterdeep can't deal with a zombie infestation, because they're literally lords of a city, with jobs to do. For the Osirans, they're having to keep tabs on a bunch of areas in the Jyhad - not least of which the Setites - AND maintain their personal unlifestyle of asceticism and meditation. Inevitably, they're going to run up against walls they cannot or will not handle themselves.

          There's pragmatic reasons for acting as "quest giver", of course. For one, it separates the wheat from the chaff, allowing the Osirans to gauge a PC's potential as a recruit...or as a threat. All depending on how the characters decide to handle situations. For another, it keeps pesky fledglings and neonates busy, in a "productive" manner. Idle hands are the devil's playthings, or so they say, and giving young vampires work to do possibly keeps them from engaging in "mischief". (Which is very much not to say the PCs aren't capable of doing both at the same time. Players have a boundless capacity to both solve problems and exploit them for fun and profit.)

          And if a PC turns out to be really rotten - just an all-around terrible and dangerous lick - leading them into hazardous situations can get them killed. Either the vampire solves the problem or dies trying. Win win. (Obviously, a high Humanity vampire is unlikely to reserve this kind of callous treatment for ones that prove they can't be trusted or that arguably "need to die". Otherwise, this is just standard Elder behavior.)

          In any event, the Osiran, by necessity, will engage in "quest giving" through intermediaries or covert actions. The PCs may first become aware of their benefactor through drops or secret messages, pointing them towards unsavory dealings, mysteries, or information relevant to their interests. It may be many stories along through the chronicle before meeting the Osiran and learning their nature is even an option.


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          • #50
            Originally posted by Bluecho View Post
            There's pragmatic reasons for acting as "quest giver" of course.
            Also by giving suggestions or advice to someone else it can help keep your Beast from getting to strong. Your catspaw does the dirty work, loses Humanity, but you get to keep yours since you were "just asking questions" or "giving advice."

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            • #51
              Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post

              Also by giving suggestions or advice to someone else it can help keep your Beast from getting to strong. Your catspaw does the dirty work, loses Humanity, but you get to keep yours since you were "just asking questions" or "giving advice."
              "I mean, it's not my fault they took my warning, and resolved it in the most morally bankrupt way possible. I didn't ask them to burn down that orphanage."


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              • #52
                Whether or not the Children of Osiris are to your taste, I think the discussion has been good at determing the type of group that they are. So now I think is a good time to step back and look at the Salubri again, so we can compare the two.

                For this post, I am mostly going by the original description of the Salubri in the early Player Guides. Their depiction in Dark Ages and Revised, while derived from them, inevitably introduced things that caused some divergences or neglected aspects I think are important. Furthermore, I also think it is important to view the Salubri through the eyes of what is known by the NPCs of Vampire in general, and not the “secret knowledge” we have as players/readers of the sourcebooks. So here are the major points of the bloodline in the modern era that I think are most important to remember.
                • The Salubri are very few with official numbers being only seven, although I think that at any one time their numbers may be higher or lower than that given that each one is supposed to sire, and they are being hunted and subject to destruction. (Whether or not their numbers being “seven” is important to the bloodline are unknown, but it is important to remember that seven is a magical number.) Do their numbers have to be seven? At some point was it ten until enough were destroyed that there is now only seven? If some of them are subsequently destroyed, would the number now be only five exist? Or somehow has their numbers been consistently seven on purpose? We don't know although the way it is written in the Players Guide (“Only seven of these Cainites exist at a time.”) sounds like this is a set number. But if so, how do they replace their numbers if one of the mentors gets destroyed?
                • The Salubri are well known to modern vampires, likely as a result of Tremere propaganda. Furthermore, they are not just a memory – they are known to exist given that some Princes have called blood hunts on them. They also have a very bad reputation being considered to be diablerists, infernalists, and “soulsuckers”.
                • Salubri are obsessed with Golconda not just for vampires, but also for mortals. To Salubri, Golconda isn't just a vampire thing, but something that is important to mortals as well. If you don't achieve Golconda, you are doomed to become a “bound spirit.” In general, they are very interested in the state of people's “souls”. From this description, it's unclear whether the Salubri believe Golconda is exactly the same thing as described in the books, or encompasses some greater aspect so that it involves mortals.
                • Salubri always identify a mortal to embrace and then teach them how to achieve Golconda. Then when the Salubri mentor actually achieves Golconda, they command their childe to diablerize them. To me, this is a very strange thing to do for a vampire in Golconda. Why embrace at all? I think we as players assume that most vampires who have reached Golconda won't embrace. But the Salubri always do this. We've just been told that even mortals need to reach Golconda. But if they can, why embrace them? Do they need to first become vampires to reach Golconda? If so, why only limit it to one person, dooming most humans? Furthermore, why is it essential for the Salubri to diablerize their sire? This requirement is never explained.
                • Another question is if this is the current culture of the Salubri, exactly when did this begin? Why are all Salubri the exact same generation (8th – although obiously their children must be 9th until they diablerize their sires)? How come in the past 500-1000 years, none of the Salubri embraced ever deviated from it? Might it be a result of the diablerie influencing the newest Salubri, meaning they are somehow being controlled by past Salubri? Is it just a coincidence that exactly seven members of the same generation has been able to survive? They are some very strange things here without explanation, and it's no wonder a lot of players were suspicious about the Salubri. It is very easy for someone to take the elements of the above and construct a very different reason why the Salubri act the way they do.
                • Another thing we're told (in the characetr creation section) is that they often have large Herds - “faithful followers” who allow the Salubri to feed on them (avoiding the Salubri clan weakness). This means most, if not all, Salubri are basically leaders of a blood cult. And it likely means that anytime a Salubri embraces a student/replacement, the person they choose is from their Herd (whom they are likely teaching about Golconda and their ideas about souls). In fact, we're explicitly told that the Salubri consider it a duty to explain their concepts to everyone they meet.
                • A corollary of character creation is that all Salubri must be relatively young in vampire terms. Some may only be a few years or decades old. Even the eldest is probably only a few centuries old as opposed to an ancient elder. The constant diablerie must keep the Salubri refreshed and relatively young.

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                • #53
                  Having reviewed the Salubri, we can now compare them to the Children of Osiris, and doing so we will notice a lot of differences.

                  Clan versus Sect
                  The Salubri are an extremely small bloodline with a common founder, Saulot. The Children are not related by blood, just by acceptance of the philosophy of Osiris and the rule of the Grand Undying King. So Kindred of many clans are members in it. (This last bit is something often overlooked in editions after first by the misconception that since the Children have a common Discipline, this means they must be a bloodline.)

                  Few versus Many
                  The Salubri are much smaller in number than the Children of Osiris. There are only supposed to be seven at one time (although when we combine both student and mentor, there can be more). In contrast, while still a small group, the Children seem like they have more members – maybe a few dozen although we're not told outright. Whatever the ST decides for their chronicle though, the Children should outnumber the Salubri by a significant difference I would think.

                  Informal versus an Order
                  The organization of the two are very different. Salubri generally live alone and interact rarely with other Salubri. Except for the mentor/student relationship, Salubri do not hang out with one another. In contrast, the Children appear to be an ascetic order ruled by some kind of monastic rule governed by the Grand Undying King. This does not mean the Children have to live among one another, but they definitely appear much more organized than the Salubri and likely have to obey the Grand Undying King as the leader of their group.

                  Salubri are Young while the Children are Old
                  Because of constant diablerie, the Salubri should not be very old by vampire standards. In contrast, some of the Children of Osiris are incredibly old. The Grand Undying King was embraced by Osiris himself, making him a Methusaleh thousands of years old.

                  Salubri Embrace but the Children Don't
                  Salubri seem to believe that Golconda is so important to achieve, they MUST embrace someone in order to pass it on. Examples of the people embraced include actual children. In contrast, the Children of Osiris refuse to embrace, seeking only to teach existing vampires their philosophy. I can't see them ever embracing a child or thinking that is an OK thing to do.

                  Salubri usually feed on human Herds, but the Children try to avoid feeding on humans at all
                  This is another important distinction. The Children of Osiris make an effort to avoid feeding on human blood. They clearly prefer to feed on animals. They do this even though they don't have a weakness that causes problems if they feed on humans. In contrast despite having a clan weakness that involves feeding on unwilling victims, the Salubri in general decided on a solution on creating large Herds of humans around them as a blood cult.

                  Salubri Practice Diablerie while the Children Do Not
                  This is another important distinction. Salubri practice ritualized diablerie. I can't imagine the Children of Osiris ever justifying diablerie. Furthremore, it appears that the young Salubri may not even get a choice, as the text claims “[They] commit suicide by forcing the Childe to drink her blood.” How are they forced? We don't know. Dominate? Indoctrination? Something else? It's problematic.

                  Known versus Unknown
                  Salubri are known, or at least believed, to exist. In contrast, almost everyone thinks the Children of Osiris don't exist having perished millenia ago.

                  Feared & Hated versus Indifference
                  Salubri have terrible reputations and actively hunted by almost everyone. In contrast, nobody cares about the Children of Osiris (except maybe the Setites). It's mostly because people don't think they exist anymore because also because the Children aren't said to do the same things they Salubri do (diablerize, run blood cults of brainwashed humans, remove souls from people). And those are just the things we know they actually do. Then there are the rumors that may be objectively untrue (infernalism) but given the odd actions that require some explanation not provided in the text, it's not inconceivable.

                  Hunted versus Hunter
                  As Elphilim mentioned, the Salubri are being actively hunted everyone for various reasons. In contrast, while the Children of Osiris do have enemies, they are not being actively persecuted even by the Followers of Set since most people think they haven't existed for centuries. Nor does anyone outside these enemies would have any reason to do so. The Children of Osiris don't engage in any of the strange behavior of the Salubri that causes such offense.

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                  • #54
                    I'll admit that before this thread, I didn't give all much thought to either the Salubri or Children of Osiris. Much less compare the two for differences. I just had some vague ideas based on memories of when I originally read about them. But now that I have, I would never portray the two groups as similar or run an NPC of one group like I would to another.

                    To my eyes, the Children are clearly the more sympathetic faction despite not pushing Golconda and preferring instead Bardo. In terms of behavior, for the most part the Children of Osiris act much more humane and avoid scandalous behavior. In contrast, the Salubri engage in a lot of questionable practices, and it makes a lot of sense why other vampires don't trust them. The Children appear to be ascetic monks that don't force their opinions on people. The Salubri appear to be a deranged group of religious/cult fanatics with lots of frieghtening behavior.

                    A big question is what exactly happened between the Dark Ages (when the Tremere began their campaign against the Salubri) and the modern era when this strange, screwed up magical number of exactly seven 8th generation vampires engaging in a series of forced ritualized diableries show up. How did that transition occur and why?

                    On the whole, the Children seem to be what they appear to be at first glance.

                    The Salubri have so many strange facts about them, alternative interpretations for their behavior are screaming to be made. The most compelling alternative interpretation (to me) is that Saulot made arrangements for a secret core of the Salubri to survive and instructed loyal disciples to perpetuate themselves through diablerie (likely to throw their enemies off their track since they now have a new form/identity – this may be why we're told Salubri appear like all sorts of people – old men, children, teenagers, middle aged women – note that one thing these concepts have in common is that these people do not appear threatening and are very different from one another) in order to retain a sacred, magical number of them for an unknown reason in the Jyhad. The rest of the clan he left to its fate. In so far it is Salubri that are hunted, it is not the 8th generation Salubri mentors, but their 9th generation childer who can easily be sacrificed as they can always make another whom they will force to diablerize themselves (and thus allow their soul – which might be the soul of the original Salubri of this strange group of seven a thousand years ago – to take over their new host).

                    Is that alternative interpretation correct? I have no idea. The Salubri might just be what they appear to be at first glance – a small group of people of very odd behavior who want to help people's souls. And there are easily lots of other interpretations as well. Ultimately, it's up the ST what is true in their chronicle.

                    Neither group to me seems a good option for a PC. There are just too many things that would frustrate an ST or PC in portraying them right. Too much mystery that would need to be expose, too many restrictions on PC actions. These groups should be resticted to NPCs and specific plots.

                    Once you take into consideration, the considerable differences between the Salubri and Children of Osiris, it seems to me an ST would run very different plots with them even though they have a certain thing in common.
                    Last edited by Black Fox; 11-26-2021, 11:07 PM.

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                    • #55
                      The Salubri are interesting because they're this weird tiny group of vampires with a weird, unhealthy fixation of diablere and Golconda and in the modern nights they only make up an itty bitty fraction of their clan.

                      And then you have the bloodlines which are totally different. The Salubri Anttitribu (Warrior caste) are part of the Sabbat and other than their blood, share nothing in common with the "main" branch. (not even their flaw) They don't pursue Golconda, they don't diablarize one another (or at least no more often than other Sabbat do). And then there's the Wu Zao (Watchers), another bloodline of the Salubri, who can be found throughout Asia and the Middle East. And they also aren't interested in Golconda. Instead they focus on gathering up mystical secrets and artifacts for some unknown purpose. And you even have a bloodline of the Salubri in Africa, the Nkulu Zao, and another 7 Salubri who are basically kept in gilded cages by the Assamites.

                      At this point in time, between the Anttitribu, the Wu Zao and then Nkulu Zao and then the 7 Assamite Salubri, there's probably around 200-250 Salubri in the world, so the actual 7 Salubri would make up something like 2 or 3% of the entire clan.

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                      • #56
                        To me the perfect idea of the Salubri is that... they were just another vampire clan, but generations of myth and mystery, as well as the part where they were destroyed by the highly divisive Tremere, has led to wild imaginations and conflicting ideas about whether they were saints too-good-for-this-world or absolute sinners. Most clans carry with them a strong culture, a sense of self-selection, and they often have weaknesses that reinforce certain ideas, but ultimately they're embracing individuals. your parents have a lot of influence over you, but they don't define you.

                        The CoO on the otherhand is a cult. you join when you fit the mold.


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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by AnubisXy View Post
                          And then you have the bloodlines which are totally different.
                          For the purposes of this thread, a comparison of the Children and Osiris and Salubri in regards to their common themes of Humanity/being good guys, I think the anti-tribu are out of scope. It's why I said I was only addressing the original write up in the Players Guide because dealing with lore created afterwards just confuses things and wasn't relevant for this discussion. On another kind of Salubri thread, they'd be relevant.

                          The presence of the antitribu and any other subclans are an artifact of the Revised era retconning anything they wanted in order to fit their specific railroad metaplot. I doubt highly if any of these concepts were ever imagined, much less intentioned, when the Salubri were first presented in the 1e Players Guide. This is one reason I say there's no actual continuity anymore in the setting. We're in an "Earth-1", "Earth-2", "Earth-3" type scenario in regards to the WoD (Vampire more than others since they have the most editions). You have to pick what version you like (or most likely create your own out of all the bits you like and ignore what you don't). That doesn't mean you're wrong if you really like the idea of Salubri as depicted now with all the retcons, changes, and baggage given to them. But I do think that is just one option for STs. People have different tastes.

                          If an ST is going to use the Salubri, I think their best thing for them would be to decide what is the truth about Saulot, the Salubri, and Tremere's diablerie of him in the context of their own chronicle setting. What is true in their chronicle? What are the secrets and mysteries that could be revealed? What impact does it have on the Jyhad? That way, it's not just hokum mystery box BS. You can actually use the Salubri (or any of their bloodlines) in a way consistent with what you want to be true.

                          The "official" version told in Revised should just be one option. Want to make him a good guy and his diablerie tragic and explain how the questionable things the Salubri do are actually OK? Go for it. Want to make Salubri a good guy who somehow went awry or his plan got botched along the way? That works too. Want to portray the truth about Salubri as being essentially unknowable, and have all these different bloodlines (one of which arguably is the Tremere themselves) arguing about which right? That can be interesting as well. And there's probably at least another five versions we could easily come up, and lots of creative STs out there who will come up with their own fascinating ideas.

                          But if you're not interested in defining that mystery or secrets in your own chronicle, best to ignore the Salubri completely IMHO.

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                          • #58
                            Children of Osiris numbers

                            Honestly, I think that it's also important to note the Children of Osiris are probably incredibly tiny. People tend to overestimate the size of Bloodlines and Clans because vampires are not a huge group so that any faction of them is noticeable. I'd suggest that maybe the number of Children of Osiris is around 30. Possibly less. It's a Blood Cult that is identified in THE HUNTER'S HUNTED but something clearly no one outside of the Setites have ever heard of.

                            The Salubri may have more knowledge about them but I don't think the CoO are any more numerous.

                            The Salubri

                            Contrary to Black Fox, I'd argue that you should never solve the riddle of Saulot. I actually think it was the biggest misstep of the Transylvania Chronicles because if you're playing a died in the wool Golconda worshiper then if the player character is uninterested in roleplaying a fall from grace, it's going to go over like a wet fart. I remember when I first introduced the idea and the Salubri character reacted with, "Yeah, that's more propaganda." The heart of the Salubri is in the mystery and the faith in their view.

                            At least, IMHO.
                            Last edited by CTPhipps; 07-24-2021, 08:03 PM.


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                            • #59
                              Since this thread I've been given to thinking about the Children of Osiris and how I want to portray them in my chronicles. I only had some vague ideas beforehand, but this thread developed a lot more details for me. So now I'm at the point of putting concrete ideas in my overall game setting. I find having some definite details helps me as an ST make better decisions during the game itself.

                              First off, I'm using the idea that there are around several dozen Children of Osiris which closely matches CTPhipps idea that there are around thirty of them. You may view them as having more or less members than me. So where to put them?

                              Clearly most members should be at the mysterious snowy mountain headquarters of the order somewhere in Nepal. I'm arbitrarily assigning a dozen members there including Khetamon, the Grand Undying King. These are probably most ancient vampires who personally knew Osiris, but there's probably younger vampires as well. But I think any permanent members dwelling there are still elders with younger vampires only temporarily there to be indoctrinated or advance in knowledge. Their temple there must have sufficient grounds to feed a herd of yaks or so, but there are probably no humans. Still I imagine the "monastery" does have dealings with some village of humans to be porters and other servants as needed.

                              But there must be other temples as well. I believe the Children need to operate globally as they both recruit new members on occasion, destroy Setites when they can, and conduct other operations. I imagine the temples likely stay in contact with one another through judicious use of Astral Projection. Any sufficiently old elder would likely have Auspex at such levels. Keeping with the monastic theme, there is probably some kind of elder "abbot" that keeps in touch with Nepal and teaches/administers the teachings/disciplines of Osiris and oversees operations. The abbot would need to be very old and very trusted by the Grand Undying King. He is likely assisted by a more active second in command who would conduct field operations and deal with the younger members.

                              I think such temples would probably comprise around 4-6 members. That leaves 4-5 temples in total that need to cover the rest of the world. Each temple would likely be responsible for a geographic area. They'd run any reconnaissance, potential recruitment, and killing Setites and other enemies in that region. I think such temples would follow the theme or isolated mountain monasteries, but preferably would also not be too far from a place that would be conducive to travel elsewhere. They want isolation, but to a certain amount they need to be able to travel long distances to conduct operations so being somewhat close to a city with a port, airport, railroad, or road network helps. "Close" of course is merely relative.

                              There should be at least one in the Western Hemisphere, possibly two (one in North America and possibly one in South America). So I think a North American temple would be located in one of the mountain ranges in California not too far from San Francisco. Maybe somewhere in the Sierra Nevada. If in South America, it'd have to be located in the Andes. Not sure of the best place for it, but currently considering Peru somewhere not too far from Lima.

                              That leaves two or three temples in the Eastern Hemisphere which is a lot of territory to cover. I imagine at minimum they need a western and eastern temple.

                              Since the Grand Temple in Nepal wouldn't run direct operations, it makes sense they'd need one for eastern Eurasia elsewhere in India. So I'll put another temple somewhere in the Western Ghats. It's not that far from several of India's port cities or from the Golconda area that may attract vampire pilgrims for obvious reasons. It'd be well placed to control operations in South or Eastern Asia.

                              I'm putting another temple in France, perhaps the French Jura or Alps. This has several advantages. One is that it is not far from Switzerland which is where Horus lives and rules the mummies. Since I assume the Grand Undying King deals with Horus, having people close by to fulfill missions would be handy. Second being in France puts it in contact with Paris which was the first European nation to go crazy about Egyptology after Napoleon's invasion. That would be useful. Lastly, it's the home of the lupine Sept of the Sun's Glory which is heavy into vampire hunting. Ease of contact with some Garou there could serve their needs quite well. You can cover Europe from there and possibly North Africa and the Middle East.

                              If I was going to place a third temple, I'm leaning towards some snow capped mountain in Turkey or the Caucasus. It's much closer to Egypt and can keep an eye on there. Plus if they kill any vampires, most vampires will associate mountain dwelling vampire assassins in Turkey with the Assamites, not the Children of Osiris. Another possibility would be the Simien mountains of Ethiopia. It'd be perfect in many ways except that it's historically been very isolated and therefore difficult to use as a base to conduct operations. But the connection to the Nile and therefore Egypt would make a nice base to watch the Setites. Just need to watch out for those cataracts. Maybe it'd be more viable if they make good use of allies among the Silent Striders?

                              These temples aren't static. I imagine over the five thousand years or so that the Children of Osiris existed, they've had established and abandoned many. This is just what they may have right now.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                                Since this thread I've been given to thinking about the Children of Osiris and how I want to portray them in my chronicles. I only had some vague ideas beforehand, but this thread developed a lot more details for me. So now I'm at the point of putting concrete ideas in my overall game setting. I find having some definite details helps me as an ST make better decisions during the game itself.

                                First off, I'm using the idea that there are around several dozen Children of Osiris which closely matches CTPhipps idea that there are around thirty of them. You may view them as having more or less members than me. So where to put them?

                                Clearly most members should be at the mysterious snowy mountain headquarters of the order somewhere in Nepal. I'm arbitrarily assigning a dozen members there including Khetamon, the Grand Undying King. These are probably most ancient vampires who personally knew Osiris, but there's probably younger vampires as well. But I think any permanent members dwelling there are still elders with younger vampires only temporarily there to be indoctrinated or advance in knowledge. Their temple there must have sufficient grounds to feed a herd of yaks or so, but there are probably no humans. Still I imagine the "monastery" does have dealings with some village of humans to be porters and other servants as needed.

                                But there must be other temples as well. I believe the Children need to operate globally as they both recruit new members on occasion, destroy Setites when they can, and conduct other operations. I imagine the temples likely stay in contact with one another through judicious use of Astral Projection. Any sufficiently old elder would likely have Auspex at such levels. Keeping with the monastic theme, there is probably some kind of elder "abbot" that keeps in touch with Nepal and teaches/administers the teachings/disciplines of Osiris and oversees operations. The abbot would need to be very old and very trusted by the Grand Undying King. He is likely assisted by a more active second in command who would conduct field operations and deal with the younger members.

                                Something i'd say definitely relates to the subject, along with this.

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