Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Tzimisce Rule the Camarilla

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Tzimisce Rule the Camarilla

    This comes from the other thread but I wanted to talk more on this topic and I figured I could bring it to a new thread since it's a discussion about what could be in an alternative setting rather than a discussion canon.

    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Sadly the Ventrue are the vanilla option.

    If I was redoing V:TM, I'd ditch the Ventrue and have the Tzimisce as the rulers of the Camarilla.
    So CT, how do you think this idea would play out in practice? I'm assuming that these would Old Clan Tzimisce or something akin to them. That would suit me, since I'm a big fan of the OCT. I'm thinking that Tzimisce would be ultraconservative, even more so than the Ventrue, and may well represent the declining power of feudalism, personal ability, honor, land, and old ways of maintaining power as opposed to finance and media, as examples. Should there be a rival in the Camarilla (matching a canon one or something different?) that could represent new money?

    I'd love to hear more detailed thoughts from CTP or anybody else on the topic.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
    This comes from the other thread but I wanted to talk more on this topic and I figured I could bring it to a new thread since it's a discussion about what could be in an alternative setting rather than a discussion canon.

    So CT, how do you think this idea would play out in practice? I'm assuming that these would Old Clan Tzimisce or something akin to them. That would suit me, since I'm a big fan of the OCT. I'm thinking that Tzimisce would be ultraconservative, even more so than the Ventrue, and may well represent the declining power of feudalism, personal ability, honor, land, and old ways of maintaining power as opposed to finance and media, as examples. Should there be a rival in the Camarilla (matching a canon one or something different?) that could represent new money?

    I'd love to hear more detailed thoughts from CTP or anybody else on the topic.
    I think the Tzimisce as a replacement for the Ventrue would have to be changed a bit but would work well as a central conflict within the Camarilla. As you say, it would be interesting to note the Tzimisce as representing Old World money via the power of land and direct domination of ones' vassals via feudalism.

    They would be more directly the kind of vampires that are keeping up the system of Princes, prestige, nobility, Domain, and all of this stuff that groups like the Anarchs hate. They'd have the kind of power to enforce this domination via their Disciplines as well as minions so they don't have to be Old Clan Tzimisce if you go with the 5th Edition Disciplines of giving them Dominate. However, funnily, I think the Tzimisce would actually be very useful to the Camarilla in the Modern Nights with Vicissitude. With the ability to change your face every few decades then the Tzimisce don't necessarily have to worry about photos, identities, and fake personas the way other Clans do. They can even use these as punishments to enforce their power as well.

    If we stick with the "classic" Tzimisce we can also have a rivalry for power with the Tremere and Tzimisce with the two sides uneasily being together as well as constantly jockeying for power. You could perhaps have the Ventrue being the Clan of Merchants but not able to overthrow the Tzimisce due to them being the traditional power structure (an alternative might also be to use the Giovanni instead).

    It certainly makes the Anarch conflict to be more interesting as the Tzimisce show vampire society at its most atavistic and anarchonistic but also powerful and terrifying.


    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CTPhipps
      You could perhaps have the Ventrue being the Clan of Merchants but not able to overthrow the Tzimisce due to them being the traditional power structure
      Doesn't make sense. The Venture during the Dark Ages were the defacto feudal lords and traditional power structure of Kindred society. But as time progressed and modernity increasingly became the main paradigm, certain portions of the Venture, who focused on more mercantile functions, started to become the new leaders of Kindred society basically. The Venture who wanted to remain in the old ways of feudalism and traditional power structure joined the Sabbat.

      Basically what you described in your whole post, scrapping out Tzimisce out the equation for the sake of inference.. is essentially Venture antribu already.


      Jade Kingdom Warrior

      Comment


      • #4
        I find the idea of the Tzmisce leading the cam funny, since they're only nominally leaders of the Sabbat, with most of the actual work done by Lasombra and Brujah. The Tzmisce can give a good talk about being a freak, but they're not center stage material in​ a normal society. Their disciplies aren't leader disciplines, they're support disciplines. They have more in common with Malks and Gangrel than any of the other Cam clans.

        Joining the Cam? Well, I really like the idea that Vicissitude is richly persecuted, but it could work if you scrapped that, sure. But then you've got the follow on effect of the masquerade being extra easy to patch up if you can just change face. Too easy. Takes a lot of drama out
        Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 09-03-2021, 12:21 PM.


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

          Doesn't make sense. The Venture during the Dark Ages were the defacto feudal lords and traditional power structure of Kindred society. But as time progressed and modernity increasingly became the main paradigm, certain portions of the Venture, who focused on more mercantile functions, started to become the new leaders of Kindred society basically. The Venture who wanted to remain in the old ways of feudalism and traditional power structure joined the Sabbat.

          Basically what you described in your whole post, scrapping out Tzimisce out the equation for the sake of inference.. is essentially Venture antribu already.
          Well we're well off the reservation of switching things around from canon.

          And the Tzimisce have Vicissitude, magic, Ghoul Families, and other things that would allow them to be able to hold their position as Feudal Lords better than the Ventrue Antitribu.

          Also, why I suggested the Giovanni would be better.

          Basically, just kick the Ventrue to the curb completely.

          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
          I find the idea of the Tzmisce leading the cam funny, since they're only nominally leaders of the Sabbat, with most of the actual work done by Lasombra and Brujah. The Tzmisce can give a good talk about being a freak, but they're not center stage material in​ a normal society. Their disciplies aren't leader disciplines, they're support disciplines. They have more in common with Malks and Gangrel than any of the other Cam clans.

          Joining the Cam? Well, I really like the idea that Vicissitude is richly persecuted, but it could work if you scrapped that, sure. But then you've got the follow on effect of the masquerade being extra easy to patch up if you can just change face. Too easy. Takes a lot of drama out
          Let's be honest, the Lasombra are in charge because the Tzimisce let them think they are.


          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

          Comment


          • #6
            In the other thread, people were calling Ventrue boring and “vanilla.” I would argue that Old Clan Tzimisce are just weaker Ventrue. Their Discipline set just doesn’t allow for full scale Sect leadership. Animalism, Auspex and Dominate would be great for ruling smaller retinues for extremely territorial shut-ins who don’t venture too far behind their fiefs. Without the crowd swaying ability of Presence or the survivability of Fortitude — or the mighty oomph of Potence, if compared to Lasombra — they would be foolish to try to grab the reigns of the largest conglomeration of vampires. They would arguably be outmatched even by the remaining Brujah.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

              I think the Tzimisce as a replacement for the Ventrue would have to be changed a bit but would work well as a central conflict within the Camarilla. As you say, it would be interesting to note the Tzimisce as representing Old World money via the power of land and direct domination of ones' vassals via feudalism.

              They would be more directly the kind of vampires that are keeping up the system of Princes, prestige, nobility, Domain, and all of this stuff that groups like the Anarchs hate. They'd have the kind of power to enforce this domination via their Disciplines as well as minions so they don't have to be Old Clan Tzimisce if you go with the 5th Edition Disciplines of giving them Dominate. However, funnily, I think the Tzimisce would actually be very useful to the Camarilla in the Modern Nights with Vicissitude. With the ability to change your face every few decades then the Tzimisce don't necessarily have to worry about photos, identities, and fake personas the way other Clans do. They can even use these as punishments to enforce their power as well.

              If we stick with the "classic" Tzimisce we can also have a rivalry for power with the Tremere and Tzimisce with the two sides uneasily being together as well as constantly jockeying for power. You could perhaps have the Ventrue being the Clan of Merchants but not able to overthrow the Tzimisce due to them being the traditional power structure (an alternative might also be to use the Giovanni instead).

              It certainly makes the Anarch conflict to be more interesting as the Tzimisce show vampire society at its most atavistic and anarchonistic but also powerful and terrifying.
              I think we're on the same page with the Tzimisce representing old traditional power, landed gentry and the valued associated with them. If that is the case, they still maintain official leadership over the Camarilla through tradition and the respect that they command, to those elders who value those traditions. They have vampire power more than human power.

              If we keep the Ventrue around, making them the merchants would be a great contrast. They could be the rivals of the Tzimisce, representing new money and a more progressive outlook. Ventrue likely have more money and direct influence in the mortal world. The Tzimisce have landed gentry, but the Ventrue have bankers, corporations, stoke brokers, media moguls. At some point in the 19th century, the Ventrue surpassed Tzimisce in terms of wealth, but Tzimisce still have dominance in the Elysiums. The Ventrue would be more egalitarian: people can work their way up, they like people who are good at managing money more than those of noble lineage. The Ventrue would become the center-left of the vampire world, with the Tzimisce as the right.

              The Tzimisce contain all sorts of diverse ideas. One way of representing this is go with Revenant families. Because the Tzimisce are in the Camarilla, I would think that they would rely more heavily on Revenants as they wouldn't have the Sabbat objection to ghouls and would have a greater desire for influence over humanity. The Grimaldi could be one of their connections to modern business and finance. The Zantosa could have social skills. Bratovitch could be fighters.

              In the USA, Ventrue dealt a major blow to the Tzimisce with the rise of industry and decline of agrarianism, notably the American Civil War. The plantation system was a vestige of landed nobility and was likely dominated by the Tzimisce, so the South's defeat after the civil war was bad for the Tzimisce.

              The leadership of the Tzimisce wouldn't be as dominant as that of the Ventrue in the canon setting.

              If we go with the Tzimisce as the right wing of vampiric politics, and the Ventrue a center-left, I can see the Tremere as siding with the Ventrue. They are a new Clan, another new money Clan, and the Tzimisce would dislike them not only for fighting over Eastern Europe, but also because they would likely see the Tremere as a bunch of caitiff diablerists - which they kind of are. How would the other Clans align here? Would the Brujah still be the Camarilla's far left?

              Comment


              • #8
                I love this idea, honestly. In the canon game lines, the Tzimisce have a narrative during the Dark Medieval, when they and the Ventrue are the clashing landed gentry of the East and West, but as MWIS points out they're barely significant in the modern Sabbat.

                Frame the Fiends as the senescent authoritarian Hapsburgs of the modern night, resorting to increasing monstrousness to keep their talons on power, and the Ventrue as the (equally callous) capitalist vampires who adapted to the decline of monarchies and the rise of merchants, and you can assign a niche for each with roots in real world history.

                The persecution of Jaques de Molay by the church and state for having made enough money to make himself an asset forfeiture target is where I'd start the evolution of the Ventrue in this timeline. Make him a martyr celebrated by Ventrue guilds as well as the Masonic groups of the real world. Imagine the impact this would have on Cainite involvement in, say, the American Revolution, which had so many Freemasons in leadership roles that it was a de facto Masonic conspiracy in real life.
                Last edited by Reasor; 09-03-2021, 01:53 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  sounds like one of those bad fanfiction concepts were they completly break the setting in every way they can so long as it makes their favorites finally get their deserved position of god emporer of universe because their favorite is just that amazing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                    Let's be honest, *LIES*
                    Of all the clans that don't rule the camarilla that could, my top choices would be Baali and low-key Settites. The corpse-fuckers could be powerful, but nobody likes them enough to let them lead. In the name of fun: The Tzmisce, Ravnos, and Assamites are all clans the Camarilla should wisely actually want to... erm... genocide, and not just because the Tremere have grudges.

                    Vicissitude is a very transgressive discipline, the subject of much fear and loathing, and a massive masquerade violation. The OC Tzmisce don't need to be exterminated, but they're not really a good clan for modern nights. The revenant bloodlines turned vampire are fine so long as they don't have Vicissitude.
                    The Ravnos are a vice-driven menace who are intrinsically drawn to be hostile to the path of humanity, the only path the Camarilla condone. Killing them all is the humane thing to do.
                    The Assamites view themselves as Judge, Jury and executioner, which is... really frightening if you're in power and corrupt. That, and the part where they don't seem so interested in lifting the Baali curse. Eventually, like cops who need to make up infractions because their department relies on fines for funding, the Assamites will make up infractions so they can diablerize. (also, my book: Quietus is cultivated by consuming poised blood, which means they need to poison people routinely... that's just monsterous)

                    Bloodline wise, the Cam should aim to destroy the Gargoyles, blood brothers, Salubri, Nagaraja, meaghar/Kiasyd, anything tied to lilith, HoS, and of course... this is all because these bloodlines are high masquerade risks. They're all few in number, it's not like they're going to put up a good resistance. Might as well do it.

                    It's what you've always wanted from the Cam, CT!


                    Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                    There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      This is how I see the stylistic differences between the Ventrue and Tzimisce.

                      The core of the Tzimisce is their territoriality. They are bound to the land. They see themselves as masters of their land, and don't tolerate competitors in their childer or others on their own territory. They only want servants in their territory. Even others of their clan are fit only to be rival lords who can either be enemies or allies depending on the circumstances. It's harder for them to work with others because too often they'll see other clans as interlopers.

                      The core of the Ventrue is their collective action as a clan. They cooperate with each other on an ongoing, institutionalized basis. They are much more dynamic and willing to embrace change because that brings opportunity. They are much better working with others because it's only an extension of their existing clan culture.

                      If the Tzimisce were inside the Camarilla, they wouldn't rule it. They make poor leaders of others. They would clash too often with others in order to defend their prerogatives. However, they'd be respected for their independence and individual power. They might also have an independent power base as more rural lords inbetween the urban Princedoms and might be seen partially as a second rural clan alongside the Gangrel. In terms of overall power and influence, the Tzimisce would probably be under the Ventrue, Tremere and Toreador, but above the Malkavians (another clan known for its weaker Clan influence overall but with powerful individual members who can be very influential) and more public than the Nosferatu. There'd probably be a significant number of Tzimisce Princes who ruthlessly made their way to the top, but very few Archons as that would put them in a subservient position. The Brujah would likely oppose the Tzimisce even more than they do the Ventrue.

                      In a setting where the Tzimisce replace the Ventrue in the Camarilla, I don't think you have a Camarilla honestly. Too much of the Camarilla represents the culture of the Ventrue. I believe that the concept of the Conclave was something that enabled the Camarilla to be created because it provided the basis of reconciliation between the Ventrue and Brujah. To a Ventrue, the Conclave system represents another way to transform individuals into a political body capable of action. To the Brujah, the Conclaves allowed individual expression and power within the Camarilla. I don't see how that becomes part of the Camarilla without the Ventrue, though maybe the Toreador would be able to push it through. And blood bonding of childer would probably be much more common. The Toreador would likely be the de facto leaders of the Camarilla, but the Camarilla as a whole would be much more fractious as rivalry between the Tremere and Tzimisce would be much more open, probably only controlled by keeping those clans in separate territories. The Brujah would likely become much more important, and more of a leadership clan with frequent disputes with the Tzimisce. The Camarilla would probably be run more as a Toreador-Brujah duopoly on top with the Tremere and Tzimisce next, and the other clans below them in terms of overall clan influence and power.

                      In short, there'd be a significant number of Tzimisce Princes in the Camarilla, but less power and influence than you might expect because the Tzimisce in general don't know how to share and therefore alienate everyone else who forms coalitions against them. In one measure they'd appear to be very strong, but they would constantly punch underneath their own weight class.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Imagine the Tremere rose up and pissed off the Ventrue instead of the Tzmisce, and then they sided with the Tzmisce (and perhaps nosferatu/Gangrel) against the Ventrue and their allies.
                        The Tremere would've died.


                        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by archderd View Post
                          sounds like one of those bad fanfiction concepts were they completly break the setting in every way they can so long as it makes their favorites finally get their deserved position of god emporer of universe because their favorite is just that amazing.


                          I don't know what you're talking about.



                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          Vicissitude is a very transgressive discipline, the subject of much fear and loathing, and a massive masquerade violation. The OC Tzmisce don't need to be exterminated, but they're not really a good clan for modern nights.
                          Well, there's a reason Vicissitude has that reputation: Because Sabbat Tzimisce are morons.

                          Vicissitude is the ultimate Masquerade Discipline. Armed with it, no vampire has to ever worry about being identified as a guy who was alive 100 years ago again. Al Capone is a constant Masquerade breach because he's a famous buy but five minutes alone with a Tzimisce Prince and a Major boon and he'll look like a completely new vampire. Tzimisce are able to infiltrate any new society they want and look like everybody else.

                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          Imagine the Tremere rose up and pissed off the Ventrue instead of the Tzmisce, and then they sided with the Tzmisce (and perhaps nosferatu/Gangrel) against the Ventrue and their allies.

                          The Tremere would've died.
                          The Ventrue only "won" because the Tremere weakened the Tzimicse during the Omen War. The Ventrue aren't even the real leaders of the Camarilla. Rafael de Corazon was the founder of the Camarilla and the Toreador were the real heart of things. The Ventrue couldn't even hold Paris for very long and were just a bunch of German petty warlords when the Tremere offered to make them King (with the Torries help).

                          Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-03-2021, 04:48 PM.


                          Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by archderd View Post
                            sounds like one of those bad fanfiction concepts were they completly break the setting in every way they can so long as it makes their favorites finally get their deserved position of god emporer of universe because their favorite is just that amazing.
                            That's the fun of it!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                              This is how I see the stylistic differences between the Ventrue and Tzimisce.

                              The core of the Tzimisce is their territoriality. They are bound to the land. They see themselves as masters of their land, and don't tolerate competitors in their childer or others on their own territory. They only want servants in their territory. Even others of their clan are fit only to be rival lords who can either be enemies or allies depending on the circumstances. It's harder for them to work with others because too often they'll see other clans as interlopers.

                              The core of the Ventrue is their collective action as a clan. They cooperate with each other on an ongoing, institutionalized basis. They are much more dynamic and willing to embrace change because that brings opportunity. They are much better working with others because it's only an extension of their existing clan culture.

                              If the Tzimisce were inside the Camarilla, they wouldn't rule it. They make poor leaders of others. They would clash too often with others in order to defend their prerogatives. However, they'd be respected for their independence and individual power. They might also have an independent power base as more rural lords inbetween the urban Princedoms and might be seen partially as a second rural clan alongside the Gangrel. In terms of overall power and influence, the Tzimisce would probably be under the Ventrue, Tremere and Toreador, but above the Malkavians (another clan known for its weaker Clan influence overall but with powerful individual members who can be very influential) and more public than the Nosferatu. There'd probably be a significant number of Tzimisce Princes who ruthlessly made their way to the top, but very few Archons as that would put them in a subservient position. The Brujah would likely oppose the Tzimisce even more than they do the Ventrue.

                              In a setting where the Tzimisce replace the Ventrue in the Camarilla, I don't think you have a Camarilla honestly. Too much of the Camarilla represents the culture of the Ventrue. I believe that the concept of the Conclave was something that enabled the Camarilla to be created because it provided the basis of reconciliation between the Ventrue and Brujah. To a Ventrue, the Conclave system represents another way to transform individuals into a political body capable of action. To the Brujah, the Conclaves allowed individual expression and power within the Camarilla. I don't see how that becomes part of the Camarilla without the Ventrue, though maybe the Toreador would be able to push it through. And blood bonding of childer would probably be much more common.

                              The Toreador would likely be the de facto leaders of the Camarilla, but the Camarilla as a whole would be much more fractious as rivalry between the Tremere and Tzimisce would be much more open, probably only controlled by keeping those clans in separate territories. The Brujah would likely become much more important, and more of a leadership clan with frequent disputes with the Tzimisce. The Camarilla would probably be run more as a Toreador-Brujah duopoly on top with the Tremere and Tzimisce next, and the other clans below them in terms of overall clan influence and power.

                              In short, there'd be a significant number of Tzimisce Princes in the Camarilla, but less power and influence than you might expect because the Tzimisce in general don't know how to share and therefore alienate everyone else who forms coalitions against them. In one measure they'd appear to be very strong, but they would constantly punch underneath their own weight class.
                              I dunno, I think this overstates some issues and understates some others.

                              1. The Ventrue aren't people who rule by consensus, that's the Toreador's thing. The Ventrue domiciles are ruled by feudal overlords and actually INVADED other vampire territories in order to claim more land as part of their whole deal during V:TDA. The Prince of Paris got himself overthrown because he was a tyrannical bastard, Mithras is another example of being a tyrannical bastard, and Hardelstadt the Elder was also a tyrannical bastard. We also saw that Ancient Rome collapsed because the Ventrue couldn't stand the Brujah existing as having their own independent city-state/nation. Really, the Camarilla only works because the Toreador and Tremere softened the Ventrue's inner Blue Blood privilege.

                              2. The Camarilla didn't really change much about vampire society Pre-Convention of Thorns. Vampire domains were ruled by Princes, the Masquerade, and the Rite of Creation/Destruction. At least those dozen or so cities in Europe that had more than a coterie of vampires. The big difference is outside of Paris, Constantinople, and a few other places the number of vampires in a city isn't probably going to be more than a dozen.

                              3. The Tzimisce actually deserve credit as having a Proto-Camarilla before the Camarilla. Long before Thorns, the Tzimisce were an organized body that had a Council of Voivodes that ruled over all of the territory under Clan Tzimisce and made decisions for the health of the group. While of dubious canonicity, the biggest example of their activity would be what they did to the Vukodlak. He was breaking the Masquerade and trying to eat the Antediluvians so they put him in a permanent torpor as a lesson to others. They wouldn't have been able to wage war on the Tremere either if they couldn't join their forces together to fight against them in alliances.

                              4. The Toreador I'd argue ARE the rulers of the Camarilla but they let the Ventrue sit on the throne because the latter take all the heat for being rulers. In a very real way, the Toreadors handle things behind the scenes, avoid being anyone's most hated enemy, and have the Ventrue spill all of the blood necessary to keep people in line while they seem harmless. The Dark Ages: Toreador novel really goes into how much soft power the Toreadors wield while making the Ventrue the people who crack the whip overtly. I could easily see the Tzimsice filling that role.

                              5. The whole "Tzimisce aren't good rulers" thing ignores that there's a huge number of brilliant ones like the Dracon, Vladimir Rustovich, and of course Dracula. Sure, Yorak and Vykos are more insane priests/mad scientists but every clan has nuances.


                              Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X