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  • #46
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    I
    Camarilla
    Tzimisce
    Brujah
    Malkavian
    Giovanni
    Toreador
    Nosferatu
    Gangrel

    Independents
    Followers of Set
    Assamites
    Ravnos
    Salubri

    Sabbat
    Ventrue
    Lasombra
    Tremere (powerful Bloodline)
    You make some interesting points. I’m not sure if this alternative timeline happens soon enough to stop Tremere from diablerizing Saulot or that general series of events from happening. I mean, it could, but I think I would personally want to keep the ascension of Tremere and the fall of the Salubri as similar to canon. I might switch them with the Cappadocians, making the Giovanni takeover fail or not happen and maintain the Cappadocians as a full Clan who enter the Camarilla, maybe with the Giovanni as a Bloodline.

    Do you think that the Ventrue would be so tied to the Tremere that they would follow them into the Sabbat? It seems like there would have to be some kind of internal turmoil within the Ventrue Clan to make that happen, like their own Anarch Revolt and overthrow of elders. Though the Tzimisce and Lasombra were both ruler Clans before the Anarch Revolts, maybe the Ventrue experienced that as well or instead.

    This is a slight tangent, but still closely tied to the thread’s theme, what would be Sabbat be like under the rule of the Ventrue? Potentially it seems like it might be much different, especially lacking the Tzimisce influence. Would the Ventrue Sabbat be more moderate or would the Ventrue Clan in this scenario reinvent itself in the heat of the Anarch Revolt? I can imagine the Sabbat retaining many aspects of its character being controlled by the Brujah and Tremere: the violence and mysticism respectively, but it seems like it might be quite a bit different with the Ventrue in charge - which is alright, I’m just curious.

    I like what you’ve said about the different style of Tzimisce rulership. It would be more localized certainly, which would present some disadvantages. I imagine that in this scenario that Eastern Europe would be the heart of Camarilla power and that when events undermine stability in Slavic nations, Tzimisce power declines. Most notably Ottoman conquests and the rise of the Soviet Union.

    I still think it would be interesting to give the Tzimisce a rival Clan with new money that is eclipsing their worldly power. I don’t know if that should be the Ventrue from within the Dabbat or another Camarilla Clan.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      I’m not sure if this alternative timeline happens soon enough to stop Tremere from diablerizing Saulot or that general series of events from happening.
      The diablerie of Saulot would probably have happened, because it was some centuries before anyway, along with the hunting of Salubri elders. But the campaign against the Salubri took several centuries and depended a lot on the Tremere getting traction. This traction came mostly from their service to the Ventrue, although there are hints to "something else" as writer recognition to the fact that it was too fast to make sense.

      But this is not something that need to be true, and even if it is, it may be interpreted in various ways. Particularly, when I say they would still be a clan I mean that the Kindred would refer to them as such, even if their numbers and collective power are lower than the Tremere's. Under Tzimisce influence the propaganda would loose some traction and the Salubri wouldn't lose clan status to "that rabble of Caittif usurpers".

      Personally I like the Salubri and I think their presence would shake the status quo even more for this exercise, which is a bonus, but their actual numbers and power is entirely a matter of preference. Keeping the Cappadocians is also a nice change I'm totally in favor of.

      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      Do you think that the Ventrue would be so tied to the Tremere that they would follow them into the Sabbat?
      With other clans rallying under the Tzimisce, the Ventrue would need another power base. I don't think they would work as Independent, but I also don't think that they would have been welcomed in the Camarilla in this scenario in a position that suits them. So the Sabbat is the way to go. It could either be a plot from their elders or be for real, it wouldn't make much of a difference.

      And the Tremere was their big advantage in precisely that time period, during the war of the Ventrue from Hungary with the Tzimisce. The Ventrue had a history of using the services of mystics before, and the Tremere made it easier, cheaper and more consistent than it had been since Cretheus left the clan to follow Saulot.

      I must add, though, that I think this Sabbat would be very different, something I would have to work further to figure out. I always thought that, despite being quite fun, the Sabbat wasn't the most well though idea anyway. So instead of trying to think what the Ventrue would do in the Sabbat, think about what the Sabbat would be under the rule of the Ventrue and the Tremere, main ones, not Antitribu.

      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      This is a slight tangent, but still closely tied to the thread’s theme, what would be Sabbat be like under the rule of the Ventrue?
      Not sure yet, but I think this Sabbat would be far more linked to corruption than to violence per se. Instead of subtly influencing some institutions it could be far more hands on and offer its members benefits for cooperating with the sects complete control of a city. One picture I always had in mind when the core books said that the Sabbat is rumored to be this or that way, is that at least on the surface a Sabbat city would actually look the same.

      The difference probably would arise as a newcomer notices that the Traditions defended by the Camarilla aren't present. The Sabbat would still keep mostly the same hierarchy, credo and ritae, even because those things were mostly a Lasombra creation.

      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      I like what you’ve said about the different style of Tzimisce rulership. It would be more localized certainly, which would present some disadvantages.
      Advantages and disadvantages. I think it would have a less centralized style, because the Tzimisce wouldn't want the more central institutions to have more power over a domain than the local Prince. The Inner Circle would probably meet at the Carpathian Mountains, but would work more as a meeting of rulers than a ruling body, and Justicars and Archons would have far less leeway on their actions, but maybe additional diplomatic functions. It just occurred to me that the Tzimisce would resist the idea of the Conclave, but it could be implemented anyway through pressure of the other clans during the Convention.

      The major advantage of this system is that it would be even harder to harm the position of any clan or the overall structure even with something happening at the center. This Camarilla is less efficient at centralizing resources and efforts, but can survive quite ok even if the entire Inner Circle is wiped out along with the Justicars. Also individual domains are probably more prepared to deal with their problems, not just because they need it to compensate the lack of the Justicars, but also because they have a culture of local strength and the help of Revenant families. Those guys are a major boon.

      Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
      I still think it would be interesting to give the Tzimisce a rival Clan with new money that is eclipsing their worldly power.
      I think both the Ventrue and the Giovanni (from within the Cappadocius, maybe) would do this well. They deal with the money, they don't follow precisely the same rules despite following something that resemble them, and they have their ways to screw with the "proper" rulers.

      EDIT: If something I said didn't make quite much sense, it may be because it's 4 AM here and I definitely should be in bed right now...


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      • #48
        Oddly, I think the best way to have the Tzimise become rulers of the Camarilla would be to have the Tremere start their diablerie crusade a few hundred miles to the West. Imagine if they'd made the move to Austria earlier and went after the Ventrue rather than the Tzimisce.

        1. They still go after Saulot and company because the Tremere think his kind of the easiest pickings.

        2. The Masquerade breaking Omen War doesn't happen. The Tzimisce don't march armies of ghouls and Vicissitude monsters across Transylvania.

        3. The Ventrue and Tremere probably play a far subtler game of murder, influence, and death.

        4. The First Inquisition still happens as Goratrix is SOMEONE'S sucker in France and gets the Templars destroyed but reveals to the Catholic Church that there are literal monsters among them. The Lasombra certainly didn't help, though.

        5. The Tzimisce still have a huge civil war on their hands because Kupala and the Eldest are up to their own insane schemes. Dracula may or may not live long because the Tzimisce are far better in a position to resist him but I'm inclined to think his crusade against vampires (hidden by his impalement) still goes off well.

        |6. By the time the Camarilla is assembled by Rafaele de Corazan, the Ventrue are far weaker than they were before. I'm going to go Alt-History here and Jurgen never get kidnapped by the Elders of his Clan and made into the False Hardelstadt (assume that's true in this universe). He instead leads the honorable warrior Ventrue in revolt against his own Clan. Hardelstadt the Elder is still killed and the Tremere expose any attempts to replace him.

        7. Vladimir Rustovich instead steps up to do a lot of the heavy lifting for getting his Clan to work with the Camarilla as there's still a revolt but the Inquisition is a far bigger issue for his kind than diablerie.

        8. In this revised timeline, the Camarilla is formed of the:

        Brujah
        Gangrel
        Malkavians
        Nosferatu
        Toreador
        Tremere
        Tzimisce

        And the Sabbat are the Ventrue and Lasombra who have both eliminated large sections of their Elders. However, I'd imagine there's far larger groups of Lasombra and Tzimisce Antitribu in the Camarilla/Sabbat this time around. The former, I admit just because I think the conflict was ever so slightly suibtler and the latter because Vykos and Veyla are likely still Anarch Tzimisce.

        9. The Tzimisce in this universe enforce the law of the Masquerade with horrifying punishments, impalements, and brute force more than the Ventrue. They take up a lion's share of the Camarilla being an autocracy rather than the softer power of the Ventrue. Still, it's not ineffective as, "If you fuck up, you look like a Nosferatu for a year" is a display that has its merits.

        10. Anarch Revolts are more common in this universe due to the oppression of the new leadership and get put down with equal nastiness.

        11. The Sabbat are even more occultist and mystical than they were before as the Tzimisce and Tremere dissidents are probably thick as thieves. I could see Dracula being one of their leaders in this universe rather than an Inconnu. He's a late comer to the party but that doesn't mean much among the Damned. Probably a bigger role for Lasombra occultists as well.

        12. The Ventrue, though, have the reputation less as the merchant clan than as the "martial" Clan and they are actually able to keep the Sabbat generally always in straight lines than herding cats. I would make them much closer to being in full command of the New World then and maybe give them Washington DC and New York from the beginning.

        13. By 2020, I'd say the Gehenna Crusade never happens (albeit the Beckoning does). The Brujah never leave the Camarilla but defect to the Sabbat, the Gangrel don't leave the Camarilla [The Tzimisce never deny the Antediluvians exist], the Followers of Set join the Sabbat, the Assamites join the Camarilla, and the Lasombra don't defect.

        The Second Inquisition is mildly more successful because the Tzimisce have never been as good at covering up shit.
        Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-08-2021, 08:15 AM.


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        • #49
          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          ...although there are hints to "something else" as writer recognition to the fact that it was too fast to make sense.
          Personally I always write it off as the other clans finding the Salubri, to some degree, just plain annoying. Regardless how much the collective bunch of two-faced, backstabbing, bloodsuckers talk about how the Salubri were just "the greatest and it's a real shame they were eradicated". Nobody, even other adherents of the Road of Heaven, wants some Helen Lovejoy type farting around everyone else's domains tut-tutting their fun.

          Though honestly, if we're going this route it does seems to me the critical fracture point would be the Omen War. Had the Tzimisce been not quite so buttmad over anyone but them fucking with their own, it may well have opened a door to at least a Tremere-Tzimisce detente (of which a certain Vykos would have been very unhappy, but fuck 'em) and kept the Tremere from turning to the Ventrue for aid. The Ventrue find their own dealings across Hungary and the Balkans much impeded, and Tzimisce likely manage to make headway into Serbia and eastern Hungary.

          The second fracture point being, thus relieved of external pressure and having more land for the knezi, when the Anarch Revolt breaks out it's far smaller in scale and the Voivodate manages to suppress it. The Eldest still eats it, but the clan manages to avoid ripping itself to shreds.

          I'd argue any sort of Tzimisce foundation of the Camarilla wouldn't be initiated by Rustovich, who by this point is still fucked off in the Carpathians mass murdering lupines and couldn't give a shit. Rather, the highest likelihood of it happening is at the hand of Radu Bistri, who isn't just respected among his own clan but externally as well, and knows how to pull the knezi's strings.

          Meanwhile, the Ventrue are off doing...whatever. I'd expect, indeed, the Revolt would hit them hard and a couple vampires named Hardestadt would bite the big one anyways.

          The third big fracture point would be the Convention of Thorns. Since we have the Tzimisce in place of the Ventrue, when it comes to that little "Assamite problem" I'd fully expect them to just go ahead and say, "fuck 'em" rather than simply use knowledge of Alamut's location as a bargaining chip. Meanwhile, not even the stupidest Brujah would likely agree to whatever batshit terms the Tzimisce would have offered in place of the merely bullshit terms the Ventrue did in the actual timeline.

          So, as of the Convention, my thoughts:

          Camarilla: Assamite (albeit greatly diminished, with a much more severe curse, and likely all blood bonded or otherwise enslaved), Gangrel, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Toreador, Tremere, Tzimisce

          Sabbat: Brujah, Lasombra, Ventrue. But a considerably saner Sabbat. I'm thinking more "DEUS VULT!"-y than balls deep in ludicrous Noddism taken way too far.

          I don't see the Promise of 1528 happening with that makeup, so we can probably add Giovanni to the Sabbat as well. Albeit begrudging, distant, allies.
          Last edited by Theodrim; 09-08-2021, 10:07 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
            Personally I always write it off as the other clans finding the Salubri, to some degree, just plain annoying.
            As annoying as they were (and most of them were), actively hunting them shouldn't bring so much success in such a short time. It simply doesn't make sense, unless something else is happening. Keeping this something as still happening is a matter of personal taste, but hunting a clan already used to tough situations so thoroughly that in 4 centuries they just vanish, and doing that in the Middle Ages, simply isn't feasible.


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            • #51
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              As annoying as they were (and most of them were), actively hunting them shouldn't bring so much success in such a short time. It simply doesn't make sense, unless something else is happening. Keeping this something as still happening is a matter of personal taste, but hunting a clan already used to tough situations so thoroughly that in 4 centuries they just vanish, and doing that in the Middle Ages, simply isn't feasible.

              It's worth noting their own founder was actively encouraging/manipulating their destruction (or at least wide scale reduction) as far as factors that helped that along. Stuff happened like clan elders that had managed to initially survive the hunts feeling Saulot himself calling them somewhere, and then, you know, expected results.

              Which is to say, something else was happening, yeah.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by MarkK View Post
                It's worth noting their own founder was actively encouraging/manipulating their destruction (or at least wide scale reduction) as far as factors that helped that along. Stuff happened like clan elders that had managed to initially survive the hunts feeling Saulot himself calling them somewhere, and then, you know, expected results.

                Which is to say, something else was happening, yeah.
                This is quite probable, but is a hindsight conclusion. I was talking about the specific line, and since we're working a What if... scenario, I'm trying to be explanation-agnostic. Saulot overtaking Tremere's body wasn't a thing back then, but that line made it explicit that the author recognized right then that this efficiency was strange, to say the least.

                And that efficiency is just a plot device. Ultimately it isn't the cause of the Salubri status in modern nights, it is the explanation. The cause is that the Salubri only appeared in the game when they were doing the first bloodlines, nothing else, so an explanation is needed for a situation that was already canon. The hidden cause is probably, in hindsight, Saulot's actions (given that at the time of original writing he being a master manipulator wasn't a thing, either), but it could be anything else or, in this scenario, not exist or just not be so effective.

                But yeah, on all probability and by hindsight in the canon material, Saulot was the one behind the Salubri's destruction. He may be responsible for Tremere's decision to diablerize him, even. Personally I don't think it would have been as efficient if the Tremere themselves didn't had such a prosper time after that, and the Ventrue had a lot to do with this prosperity. I don't think he cared about the "clan" status itself, either, and don't think the Tzimisce would go along with the same decision of naming the Tremere a clan just 'cause. Something that never happened in such fashion, bear in mind, even the Giovanni are far more a renaming of a clan than an offshoot being elevated and a clan being downgraded, since they are indeed Cappadocians, and the only ones around as far as most people know.

                Now, you can decide that Saulot was indeed that efficient, or that other hidden factors existed. I personally don't like the idea of a single NPC being so capable of effective control over so many minds, even an Ancient, at the very least I think other ancients would be interfering to prevent it. But in the end, that's a matter of personal taste, or rather, of editorial decision. I changed it in my version because I think it makes for an interesting situation and that's all.

                EDIT: Just to be clear, I liked the propositions of both CTP and Theodrim. Particularly how detailed Theodrim's proposition went. My argument is about finer details and to foment a designer-perspective discussion.
                Last edited by monteparnas; 09-09-2021, 11:11 AM. Reason: Praise were praise is due.


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                • #53
                  Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                  As annoying as they were (and most of them were), actively hunting them shouldn't bring so much success in such a short time. It simply doesn't make sense, unless something else is happening. Keeping this something as still happening is a matter of personal taste, but hunting a clan already used to tough situations so thoroughly that in 4 centuries they just vanish, and doing that in the Middle Ages, simply isn't feasible.
                  To elaborate on the "annoying" thing, I find it likely no small number of Salubri met their ends at the hands of clans other than the Tremere. They just lied about it and blamed the Tremere, as they were disliked, distrusted, and were hunting Salubri anyways, making for the perfect cover story. Of those who lacked the ambition, or were too shameful to do the deed themselves, throwing Salubri under the bus for boons owed by the much more utilitarian Tremere was also an option.

                  It doesn't necessarily have to be down to some massive plot by Saulot or some methuselah(s), just down to the right people, in the right places, collectively ganking the wrong people, in the wrong places. Particularly if members of other clans were complicit, or even actively participant.

                  Remember human populations were much smaller, and correspondingly Cainite populations were even smaller; even though mortal populations could support more vampires per capita due to comparative lack of technology and communication, the estimated population of Europe was still lower by an order of magnitude compared to today. Taking into consideration Salubri who fled or hid to be killed later, it would only take a few hundred Salubri deaths to declare them "eradicated" at most, as they were never the most populous clan by any source I've read. Not at least, compared to the likes of pre-Feast Cappadocians.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                    To elaborate on the "annoying" thing, I find it likely no small number of Salubri met their ends at the hands of clans other than the Tremere.
                    I think this is objectively true in the setting. Even the earliest mentions of the Salubri make it clear their reputation is as diablerists, soul eaters, and infernalists, and almost all of vampire society destroys them when found. They are widely hated. While the Tremere started the purge, once they convinced the other clans the Salubri were a threat, the others hunted them down. And since their numbers were not supposed to be large anyway, it wasn't difficult for their small numbers to be overwhelmed. (I think an issue for many players is that they imagine the clans are supposed to be near equivalent in size, and the idea of extreme disparity in numbers isn't a thing.)

                    If we accept the story, it heavily implies the Salubri were likely already disliked and the Tremere evidence was merely a pretext. And depending on your personal tastes about Saulot, you might even add that Saulot intended his old lineages to be wiped out for whatever reason and perhaps even secretly aided those hunting them down.

                    While I agree wiping out an entire clan should be difficult and require a long time, there's enough substance provided to justify the near destruction of the Salubri for me to buy in. I find it easier to believe than the Giovanni wiping out the Cappadocians, but even that was aided by later revelations that 1) Cappadocious had already eliminated a lot of the clan earlier in the Feast of Folly, and 2) the Giovanni actually weren't successful and there were lots of Cappadocian survivors in hiding.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Theodrim View Post
                      To elaborate on the "annoying" thing, I find it likely no small number of Salubri met their ends at the hands of clans other than the Tremere.
                      I considered that, and no one was as numerous as pre-Feast Cappadocians. In fact, no one was as numerous as POST-Feast Cappadocians. The Salubri was far less numerous than any other clan since always, at least if you don't count Wu Zao and Nkulu Zao, that may or may not be particularly numerous. And they were already seen as a nuisance by many Kindred from other clans and had been hunted by all of them under the Purge.

                      Still, they were far from defenseless, and the efficiency of the Purge is still strange without some other help, like Saulot helping it. Saulot makes a lot of sense, since he was effectively controlling the Tremere as their namesake, was a master of Auspex anyways and was deemed a saint by his followers. So he could easily locate his targets and communicate to convince them to reveal themselves.

                      And I don't find either the Salubri or Cappadocius wiping convincing, although I don't find it so hard to believe they were greatly impacted, just not as thoroughly as it is normally implied. I don't buy that everything below 8th gen was killed. But outside that, my main concern was with how the Tzimisce would treat them if the Tremere and Ventrue aren't in the Camarilla. This is a naming convention more than anything, since in practice this is all that clan versus bloodline is.


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                      • #56
                        I can buy one of the Clans being usurped and purged by another, as far fetched as it might be, but happening twice in a similar time frame seems a bit much for me. That is why I think I’d personally say that the Cappadocians were never destroyed or purged, that the Giovanni are merely a bloodline of the Cappadocians, and that the Tremere did in fact usurp and mostly eliminate the Salubri - perhaps with the help of other Clans and potentially Saulot himself.

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                        • #57
                          My headcanon is that Malkav and Saulot are the same being. The question is whether his "Golconda" was before or after his insanity.



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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            My headcanon is that Malkav and Saulot are the same being. The question is whether his "Golconda" was before or after his insanity.

                            I'd say after, because if this is the case we have a lot more recent "Saulot" activity than Malkav. And his development of Valeren/Obeah and start of Clan Salubri proper is far more recent. They are the younger of the 13, even if you consider the Wu Zao, that are older.


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                            • #59
                              The Tremere roughly rise at the time of guilds and universities. Appropriate

                              The Giovanni coup works wonderfully because it represents a real-world shift of power where the mercantile class goes big and conservative guilds become an ugly dinosaur. Free market Capitalism Triumphs over the old ways and the Giovanni thus Triumph over the Capadocians. Very appropriate.


                              Personally, I feel the Capadocians/Salubri deserved to be shafted. A discipline spread of Fortitude+Auspex+Gimick isn't great for hunting and thus limits the spread of the clan greatly since they're essentially on hard mode for neonates. As diciplines tend to say a lot about personalities we can say they were obsessive and ready to take a beating over it... It's very condemning. I really have to wonder how these clans lasted so long.


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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Sergeant Brother View Post
                                So we have the Camarilla:
                                Tzimisce
                                Ventrue
                                Malkavian
                                Lasombra
                                Toreador
                                Nosferatu
                                Gangrel

                                And the Sabbat:
                                Brujah
                                Tremere
                                The first thing I’d note is that this Sabbat would be essentially “in name only” as neither the Brujah not Tremere have a particularly vampire supremacist ideology (nor any degree of mysticism requiring a divorce from Humanity as Abyss Mysticism and Metamorphosis do), nor a particularly anti-Antediluvian focus; the original Brujah Ante was diablerized pre-history, Troile is lost beneath the salted earth of Alexandria and the Tremere have an “active” Antediluvian as the head of their organization. In general, their focus would probably be less anti-Antediluvian and more a general anti-elder (except our own elders... they’re okay) focus.

                                Brujah and Tremere are also an interesting combination in that there’s a clear divide between the physical (Brujah) and spiritual (Tremere) roles within the sect, not to mention each has their own preferred social discipline for influence.

                                Also of note in this arrangement is that the Tremere would not have any incentive to cease abducting vampires to transform into new Gargoyle slaves as all their usual targets are now in the opposing sect; every one transformed reduces their enemy’s strength and adds to their own.

                                By contrast the Camarilla would become a more spiritual sect as with less adherence to the path of Humanity since the sect’s head in this scenario hosts a number of alternate paths and the Lasombra and Gangrel’s more traditional paths would thus be more likely to be accommodated and the traditional vampire-suprematism of the Sabbat would likely be a notable undercurrent within this alternate Camarilla. Without the push for secular Humanity, I wonder if the Roads would have ever been abandoned in the first place.

                                I also suspect it would have interesting effects on the independent clans as well. To start with the Tremere wouldn’t have cast the curse upon the Assamites since they’re not associated with the Camarilla and I don’t think the Kolduns would have the institutional organization to pull off a ritual of that magnitude. So the Assamites never have the Baali curse suppressed and have no particular animosity towards the Tremere. Given the origins of the Tremere as a Clan and how Troile became an Antediluvian, coupled with anti-Elder focus, the Brujah/Tremere Sabbat would probably have a working relationship with the Assamites in this version in a “enemy of enemy” (i.e. Camarilla elders ripe for diablerie) sort of way.

                                For similar reasons (the Tremere can’t really nitpick an Antediluvian diablerie... its also another case of a younger vampire supplanting their elder) the alternate Sabbat would probably offer more support to the Giovanni. With enough support there may not have even been a Treaty of 1528 and the Giovanni could even end up becoming part of this alternate Sabbat, reinforcing a sect philosophy of “the young eat the old.” (at least as a party platform; Tremere and Augustus are younger than most other Clan’s Methuselahs and even some of their elders... so while it might be wearing thin in the Modern Nights, back when this alternate Sabbat was being established it could be a compelling claim).

                                The Ravnos and Settites would probably still be the black sheep they’ve always been, but without the “must be on secular humanity” aspect of the real Camarilla, this alternate Cam would probably have less of a reason to actively hunt them and the rebel nature of the alternate Sabbat would be a place they could survive if they chose to.

                                Which finally brings us to the Anarchs. Without the militant anti-Humanity sentiment, this alternate Sabbat basically eats the traditional Anarch’s lunch and provides a more organized resistance to the elders (with an even more rigid hierarchy thanks to the Tzimisce at the top) than just carping from the fringes of the Camarilla.

                                Basically, this alternate setup is probably a bit more “Alliance vs. Horde” (with the Sabbat ironically being more Alliance with its alliance of warrior philosophers and Hermetics being at the top) than the Camarilla as the big dogs, with Anarchs yapping on the fringes and the inhuman Sabbat boogiemen ‘out there’ to keep the Anarchs from trying too hard to upend the established order.

                                It’s also not a world where a Sabbat/Anarch take over means the city goes to shit because the Pyramid helps provide a degree of organization the regular Anarchs lack while also possessing a general adherence to Humanity-compatible roads that would prevent the need to drive up the misery index on the human population just because you can like the Sabbat might be tempted to inflict on those they basically consider “Happy Meals on Legs.”

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