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  • #76
    A hot goth? Haven't seen one of those in a while... and i think that was just on TV. Oh to be (relatively) young.

    It's not a hard rule, it's an insinuation, but Clan disciplines are really tied to the way those vampires hunt, and in a chicken VS egg argument, I'd say the way you hunt really determines what disciplines you get. [Nosferatu] was a legendary hunter, experienced in sneaking close to his animal prey before overwhelming them with power... so Obfuscate, Animalism and Potence became his natural disciplines. Your average toreador is famed for using their beauty in various noncommittal relationships alongside obsessive stalkeriffic behaviour for the few that do attract their attention... So the Toreador develop Presence, Celerity and Auspex. It's not that you can't feed without disciplines, but that you can't feed without eventually getting relevant disciplines...

    So the clans with a bias towards Auspex and Fortitude hunts... How? They're going to put themselves in harms way or through hardship and obsessively stalk their prey... That doesn't exactly scream prosperity. It makes me think Saulot and Capadocious were... very unsuccessful as vampires (if Incels had a discipline spread...). The former looking for consent, the latter presumably waiting for people to die... but people don't really die at a rate that's good for large numbers of Capadocians.


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    • #77
      Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
      It's not a hard rule, it's an insinuation, but Clan disciplines are really tied to the way those vampires hunt
      But you're treating it precisely as a hard rule.

      Disciplines aren't tied to hunt technique, Disciplines are tied to theme and personality. Hunting technique is related, but not in such a direct way. Even worse is trying to read an entire clan's capacity for survival just in the Discipline spread.

      As hunting techniques go, waiting quietly and detecting prey's approach is one of the most common techniques in the animal kingdom. Scorpions, spiders, crocodiles, are some examples of animals that rely on senses and patience. Carrion eaters like vultures analyse signs of weakness, disease and death from a safe distance and must be able not only to wait, but to withstand whatever's in their food after rot starts to take hold. Even eagles and lions spend more time searching and stalking prey than overpowering it.

      On vampires, a clan is more than just the way a vampire hunts, as much as it is also a part. You can read a clans overall personality in its Discipline spread, or at least compound it with other data to form a clearer picture. But reading hunting efficiency? Much less attribute its likelihood of survival based on the hunt? This is a lot of oversimplification and assumptions that go far beyond and ignore a lot of other things.

      So much so, that the lore stated directly that the Cappadocians grew out of hand, and in no moment they had problems feeding. It were their herds that started to feel pressure, leading to the Feast of Folly. Even after that, almost no clan was ever stated to face problems because of difficulty in feeding, much less because their spread was somehow inadequate.

      Cappadocius and Saulot were scholars and mystics, more focused on understanding their condition and the world around them. And with Auspex they could be just as selective with prey as they wanted to, as they could hear human activity from a mile away and inside their homes, see their auras to know their state of mind, look into their minds and so always find in an instants the perfect target by whatever standard they want, and never lose track of this target. This is the power of Auspex in the hunting scenario, to get exactly what you want and always know when and were to strike, in whatever fashion you prefer.

      This is reading theme and personality and tying hunting technique to it. Auspex and Fortitude talk about patience and selectivity. About understanding an environment instead of forcing change into it. About not letting fickle wants get in the way of your long time preferences. About not "wasting" time with feeding instead of your goals and about putting your ideals above instant gratification.


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      • #78


        I feel strongly that Auspex + Fortitude+ inapplicable specialist discipline is going to be hard mode for neonates. They're definitely not useless, but literally everyone else has a better discipline spread than you when it comes to hunting. Great defence with no offence doesn't make for a well disseminated bloodline. Vampires need something like Potence, Dominate, Obfuscate, Animalism... even Presence and Celerity are better choices (They cost too much to use regularly but are really good in a hunting pinch.)

        under semi-competent mortal authorities, the only way I can see the Caps/Salubri thrive is if they became the pets of other vampires IE have a Ventrue, Toreador, Malkavian, Nosferatu or (god forbid) a Tremere or Giovanni look after them (Capadocious really did a smart thing bringing in the Giovanni) They use their advanced intellects and -specialist discipline- for the master and in return they are provided food, resources and a stable environ. Using ghouls to secure food for them is an option, but not a sustainable one. Warrior Salubri and The Capadocians have the disciplines and will to fight off other vampires for ideal territory but... not well. Remember that the Capadocians focused on the physical side of death magic for no good reason, rather than the ghost stuff that's actually useful. The Healers have absolutely nothing going for them without serving someone else.


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        • #79
          Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
          On vampires, a clan is more than just the way a vampire hunts, as much as it is also a part. You can read a clans overall personality in its Discipline spread, or at least compound it with other data to form a clearer picture. But reading hunting efficiency? Much less attribute its likelihood of survival based on the hunt? This is a lot of oversimplification and assumptions that go far beyond and ignore a lot of other things.
          "I am a member of a clan of healers, or a clan of thanatologists. I have Medicine and I have Auspex, therefore I can examine and diagnose maladies in mortals, and treat them. Because bloodletting is one of the most common medical treatments of the age, I can feed in the most convenient, easiest, and simplest way possible that doesn't even approach the possibility of violating the Silence of the Blood. I literally do not even have to hunt in the first place, my food comes to me.

          Not that it's remotely necessary, I can give mortals tinctures and remedies that include a drop of my own blood, thereby bonding them. If a genuinely ill mortal comes to me, I can prepare a potion for them made of my own blood, and ghoul them for a short time so that they may heal -- bonding them to me regardless. And because I have Medicine, I'm not just slipping them snake oil to bond them, I'm actually proffering treatments that work. And for the unfortunate few too far-gone to help, I can at least offer them mercy in death without suffering.

          Oh look, I now have a herd. Likely, a far bigger herd than any other Cainite is capable in their own right. And, when word spreads that I can treat mortals' sicknesses, and they actually get better, I'll likely end up with Allies, Contacts, Fame, Influence, and Resources to boot.

          And because I have Medicine and I have Fortitude, I can actually feed from the ill without becoming a disease-carrier."

          That's apparently beyond some folks' grasp.

          Last bit, about feeding from the ill and not becoming a disease-carrier? Likely a tad bit important during the various outbreaks of cholera, typhoid, smallpox, and the like throughout the middle ages. And of course, the Black Death.

          And as a side note, as good a reason as any other why those clans were so easy to hunt and "eradicate": they were easy to find.

          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

          Remember that the Capadocians focused on the physical side of death magic for no good reason, rather than the ghost stuff that's actually useful. The Healers have absolutely nothing going for them without serving someone else.
          Right up until some dickhead lays some beefy cable upstream from the village, digs a latrine too close to the well, forgets to wash their hands before baking the daily bread, or forgot to dump out the water butts before refilling them. Suddenly, half your herd's shitting themselves to death, the other half's in the church praying or already in the graveyard, and your stupid ass became a disease-carrier when you decided it's not that big a deal.

          Those healers and thanatologists won't be so useless then, will they? Hell, if you're very, very, lucky, they didn't cause it to happen in the first place, because you were a colossal dick to them and they decided to retaliate by attacking your herd.
          Last edited by Theodrim; 09-13-2021, 04:05 PM.

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          • #80
            You want to trust a healer that only works at night?
            Even in the medieval, people didn't die at such rates that you could pull that off on the regular. And if you did pull that kind of stuff on someone's herd... well... they wouldn't give you the time to do it again.


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            • #81
              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
              I feel strongly that Auspex + Fortitude+ inapplicable specialist discipline is going to be hard mode for neonates.
              I already went on why I don't think it would for most neonates unless you cherry pick the lamest ones, but let me talk a little about the inapplicable specialist disciplines:

              Original Mortis, Level 2 is Blight, it costs WP instead of Blood, you roll with Dif based on the target's WP, which is below 5 for most mortals, and a single success is enough to cause -3 on all Physical Attributes. If you can't overpower a victim of Blight, then Potence won't do you any good.

              For modern rules, Path The Grave's Decay. Level 1 gets rid of a body in 4 minutes or less, Level 2 costs WP and freezes a target completely with an unresisted roll at dif 7, Level 3 will cripple any mortal if you really need to go this far.

              Valeren and Obeah have the same level 2 power, making a target sleep for hours with a touch. Against non-vampires it is one of the most effective attacks I've seen to simply end a fight and get the spoils.

              This isn't complete dedication to hunt, but hardly is it inapplicable.

              You want to trust a healer that only works at night?
              The healer may live outside the village and have any number of conceivable reasons to not be around by day, and treatment isn't something that only happens at day. In hospices and similar facilities people stayed primarily at night anyway, so yeah, a lot of medical service happened at night.


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              • #82
                The vampire could have a few ghoul or just blood bound apprentices around that could treat patients during the day.

                We shouldn’t assume that the vampire just suddenly dropped out of the sky into a strange village with no contacts, friends, or mentor. Not many vampire childer can survive under those conditions.

                The doctor who only sees patients at night has apprentices who see people in the day. He has a huge number of villagers who love him and swear by the efficacy of his treatments. He’s the man who saved your sister a few years back when her labor went wrong. You wouldn’t malign the guy who saved your sister’s life just because he spends all day in the woods gathering herbs?

                That is just one of a number of effective feeding strategies.

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                • #83
                  When vampires are first created, they don't have any Disciplines. Vampires are assumed to have learned their first Disciplines in the typically 5-25 years spent as a fledgling before their sire releases them. And not all sires give their childer extensive tutelage before letting them go out to hunt. Gangrel after all typically abandon their childer who have to figure out the methods of hunting on their own. So Disciplines aren't needed. They are just very, very useful. And yes, some of them are more useful - or at least obviously useful - than others.

                  You learn to hunt by first going after easy things. Things that are weak and less likely to fight back or struggle much. Small animals often at first. Then when you move on to humans you pick the very weak ones first - the very old, the very young, the very sick. In Dracula, we see the new vampire Lucy first goes after young children who call her the Bloofer Lady (and of course earlier in the book, even the Count took a baby to feed his brides). These kind of prey typically don't require Disciplines. Then as the vampire matures, develops skills, becomes more confidant, and then adds Disciplines (both in-clan and out-of-clan), you tackle harder prey. Maybe at first it's drunks, drug addicts, and the like stumbling home. There's a lot of similarities between vampires feeding and sexual assault. One is basically a metaphor for the other. Or people otherwise abandoned by society living on the streets. There are various difficulty levels one does until one is ready to begin feeding on people relatively healthy in crowded places with lots of eyewitnesses and security measures. That's the goal a fledgling works towards. It's not where they start.

                  By the time a Cappadocian is ready to be released, it's no more difficult for her to feed than any other vampire. Her hunting style, methods, and fallback plans already learned by that point.

                  I think the Cappadocians more than most would need to feed on the weak, sick, and dying. But with Auspex they could find them easier, and they would know that not only could they overpower them (without Disciplines), but that even if the weak person was somehow armed or managed to wound them, that they'd easily survive because of Fortitude. In the modern era, I see even those without any special skills being able to survive among the street people - homeless, support groups, food kitchens and shelters, runaways living off the streets, etc. quite easily under normal circumstances. Those who have stronger backgrounds, special skills, more Disciplines, or more supportive sires have even more doors open to them.

                  I don't need to agree with some of the specifics people have made here to think of any number of ways I'd approach hunting with a variety of Cappadocian or even Hecata concepts.
                  Last edited by Black Fox; 09-14-2021, 02:35 PM.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                    You want to trust a healer that only works at night?
                    Even in the medieval, people didn't die at such rates that you could pull that off on the regular.
                    Other than the constant outbreaks of cholera, typhoid, smallpox, flu, diphtheria, syphilis, the variety of causes of dysentery, malaria, and of course, the plague. And leprosy, which was so common an estimated 19,000 leper colonies existed across Europe around 1200 AD. That's all without broaching the topic of tuberculosis or anthrax, the former of which being a wasting disease the presence of which is well-documented throughout medieval Europe, and the latter so deadly it's the second-biggest theorized cause of the Black Death behind Y. pestis.

                    And don't forget famines. Or wars.

                    But other than all that, sure, even in the Medieval people didn't die that quickly. It's not like the estimated average life expectancy of the age, based on historical records and archeological evidence, was 33. And sure, childhood mortality brought that down, but it's not like ruling out childhood mortality only brought average life expectancy up to 55. In an environment where, depending on socioeconomics, families had an average of two to five children that survived to adulthood -- the number only dropping across Europe, following the Great Famine of 1315 and the Black Death, before bouncing right back in the early 15th Century.

                    But, that's if and only if we were discussing Medieval deaths. Unfortunately, we're not talking about mortalities, we're talking about illness. And that was plenty common for an enterprising vampire to set up shop as a barber, anywhere they would like in medieval Europe, and have all the free blood they could ever want brought right to their doorstep, and getting paid to take it.

                    Now, as for the rest...

                    Can someone point me towards this parallel universe in which no one gets sick or hurt at night, the ill need no supervision or tending at night, and the ill simply teleport to a doctor -- or vice versa -- in an age where transportation was exclusively by foot or animal, meaning it could take hours to get someone medical aid?

                    And if you did pull that kind of stuff on someone's herd... well... they wouldn't give you the time to do it again.
                    Good luck finding out, in a world without modern epidemiology or forensic pathology. There's one and only one discipline in the entire game that would get you remotely close to cracking that case, if there was even cause to suspect in the first place, and it's the one these "worthless" clans have which you think doesn't matter.
                    Last edited by Theodrim; 09-14-2021, 02:16 PM.

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                    • #85
                      To be fair things really weren't as bleak as most people think, despite all that. But diseases are common today, imagine at that time. And medieval doctors weren't paid only by their patients, many were maintained either by the community, the church or by local nobles to take car of anyone in need in the region. You know, sick or dead peasants don't work the fields and all that. And the greatest challenge for the time was sepsis, something that could take down anyone after a wound. By the way it was the greatest killer in wars across history, far more than the wounds themselves.

                      But the game doesn't have only one Discipline that can crack the case in an outbreak. It have two. Auspex and Healer Valeren/Obeah.


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                      • #86
                        Absence of evidence is not evidence of Absence! Execute him!

                        I don't know if the Caps were ever as fucked up as the Giovanni, but Mortis is some despicable stuff. An argument doesn't need to be right, it just needs to be convincing, and I think it'd be very easy to convince others of a Capadocian's alleged wrongdoing. Some vampires are very charismatic, very rich, very good with prestation...

                        You've also got the issue of the Capadocians not being the only doctors. Many Malks and most Tzmisce.. they're likely to be able to tell the difference between natural diseases and black magic. Any clan can embrace or ghoul a doctor, auspex isn't really needed it's just useful.


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                        • #87
                          If the Tzimisce founded the Camarilla, I wonder if they would have sided with the Cappadocians.

                          The big issue being I suppose whether they had the balls to stand up to an Antediluvian.


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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                            I don't know if the Caps were ever as fucked up as the Giovanni, but Mortis is some despicable stuff. An argument doesn't need to be right, it just needs to be convincing, and I think it'd be very easy to convince others of a Capadocian's alleged wrongdoing. Some vampires are very charismatic, very rich, very good with prestation...

                            You've also got the issue of the Capadocians not being the only doctors. Many Malks and most Tzmisce.. they're likely to be able to tell the difference between natural diseases and black magic. Any clan can embrace or ghoul a doctor, auspex isn't really needed it's just useful.
                            And no one said any of that. The arguments were about those clans ability to survive, not any advantage they would have in a conflict with other vampires. Those, if they do exist (and they do), would be of another nature entirely.

                            Mortis wasn't as fucked up as anything the Giovanni ever did. Indeed it was pretty tamed even compared with things like Dominate and Presence. And yes, since Malks and Tzimisce also have Auspex, they're quite likely to know the difference between diseases and black magic.

                            I'm not quite sure of where you're trying to get to.

                            Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                            The big issue being I suppose whether they had the balls to stand up to an Antediluvian.

                            That wouldn't be an issue, that wasn't an issue to begin with.

                            Generation doesn't make an Antediluvian, the same way it doesn't make an Elder or Methuselah. Giovanni and Tremere were both just Elders, not even particularly old ones, regardless of Diablerie. So much so that as a means to acquire respect Tremere's Diablerie of Saulot completely backfired, what really got them position in "proper" vampiric society was Meerlinda's work approaching princes with offers of service.


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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post

                              I don't know if the Caps were ever as fucked up as the Giovanni, but Mortis is some despicable stuff. An argument doesn't need to be right, it just needs to be convincing, and I think it'd be very easy to convince others of a Capadocian's alleged wrongdoing. Some vampires are very charismatic, very rich, very good with prestation...
                              Not sure about that, most of the powers are pretty tame by the(admittidly horrible) standards of Vampire powers. the most awful is the debunked Candaverous animation where you put whats probably a spectre in a corpse. Everything else is about as nasty as the other Disciplines when compared to Demment, Dominate viscitude or even thaumaturgy


                              Back on Subject I imagine the Tzmisce Carmarilla would be more decentralized a stronger emphasis on the princes soverenity in their domains, the toreador and Salubri would act as moderating influences with the fiends and the clan would have a shaper/rule/Koldun split where certain disciplines are emphasised. For example Dominate Tzmisce are more likely to be princes. The sect itself is more centered around eastern europe and has a stronger presence in rural areas. tzmisce are also more willing to personally fight in sieges which helps maintain the respect of the warrior clans.

                              Carmarilla clans
                              The patrician clans
                              Tzmisce
                              Toreador
                              Plebian clans/bloodlines
                              Malkavian
                              Nosferatu
                              Gangrel
                              Salubri
                              Ventrue Antritribu (clan culture is mainstreme vtm culture)
                              Naraja

                              anarchs:
                              Brujah
                              Ministry
                              Caitiff
                              large numbers of disenfrachised members of other clans.
                              Samedi

                              Sabbat Clans
                              Ventrue (clan culture is antribu)
                              Cappadocians (Lazerous kills augustus)
                              Lamia
                              Tremere
                              Antitribu bloodlines

                              Independant clans
                              Ravnos (slowly shifting to Sabbat following week of nightmares)
                              Assamites
                              Lasombra-Lasombra arnt really independant but are present as kingmakers in all sects. rumours about the clan is secretly unified and co-ordinating via secret compact abound
                              Giovanni bloodline

                              In the Setting the Sabbat make heavy usage of Zombies and other blood magic contructs instead of mass embraces to counter the Carmarilla uses Ghouls heavily. Magic is more common knowlegue
                              Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-14-2021, 09:06 PM.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
                                Carmarilla clans
                                The patrician clans
                                Tzmisce
                                Toreador
                                Plebian clans/bloodlines
                                Malkavian
                                Nosferatu
                                Gangrel
                                Salubri
                                Ventrue Antritribu (clan culture is mainstreme vtm culture)
                                Naraja

                                anarchs:
                                Brujah
                                Ministry
                                Caitiff
                                large numbers of disenfrachised members of other clans.
                                Samedi

                                Sabbat Clans
                                Ventrue (clan culture is antribu)
                                Cappadocians (Lazerous kills augustus)
                                Lamia
                                Tremere
                                Antitribu bloodlines

                                Independant clans
                                Ravnos (slowly shifting to Sabbat following week of nightmares)
                                Assamites
                                Lasombra-Lasombra arnt really independant but are present as kingmakers in all sects. rumours about the clan is secretly unified and co-ordinating via secret compact abound
                                Giovanni bloodline
                                That's quite an interesting spread. I'm curious about the Nagaraja and the Ministry in those positions, and really liked your take on the Lasombra. It makes far more sense for them than their canon role in the Sabbat.


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