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  • Sergeant Brother
    started a topic Tzimisce Rule the Camarilla

    Tzimisce Rule the Camarilla

    This comes from the other thread but I wanted to talk more on this topic and I figured I could bring it to a new thread since it's a discussion about what could be in an alternative setting rather than a discussion canon.

    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Sadly the Ventrue are the vanilla option.

    If I was redoing V:TM, I'd ditch the Ventrue and have the Tzimisce as the rulers of the Camarilla.
    So CT, how do you think this idea would play out in practice? I'm assuming that these would Old Clan Tzimisce or something akin to them. That would suit me, since I'm a big fan of the OCT. I'm thinking that Tzimisce would be ultraconservative, even more so than the Ventrue, and may well represent the declining power of feudalism, personal ability, honor, land, and old ways of maintaining power as opposed to finance and media, as examples. Should there be a rival in the Camarilla (matching a canon one or something different?) that could represent new money?

    I'd love to hear more detailed thoughts from CTP or anybody else on the topic.

  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    I'm sure we're all eager to hear about the supposed anti-Finnish slant of the original Sabbat writers, since you're implying that their antipathy toward Latin America is the reason for the Sabbat's presence there.
    No, I'm not implying that. I'm outward saying that the depiction of the Sabbat as the all-caps EVIL 24/7 violence orgy in the streets is an offensive take on the cities where it would be occurring as it not only describes those places as "Mordor", as some termed it in other threads, but implies they're too "uncivilized" for this to break the Masquerade, which either means the people is incapable of recognizing the supernatural, have not enough grasp of modern civilization to count for that, have no impact on public knowledge, or a combination of those.

    So, first, it is against one depiction and not every representation of the Sabbat. Second I don't think they have to actively dislike something to make wrong assumptions.

    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    Or maybe your ridiculous caricature of the 2nd Edition Sabbat is just that, a ridiculous caricature that does not reflect the original texts nor the authors' attitudes about real-world populations.
    Or maybe my ridiculous caricature is a take on the sect that I don't like because it is a ridiculous caricature that, taken at face value, offends me. Observing that what I don't like is the caricature itself, not the Sabbat as a whole.

    And sometimes I may write thinking back on the past, in a time when I indeed believed the sect to be that ridiculous caricature, a time when I in fact didn't like the Sabbat, and if I expressed myself poorly because of that I do apologize, as was the case here because I was answering a comment by CTPhipps, that actually enjoys the caricature.

    So just to remind you, ridiculous as it may seen this caricature is the Sabbat that many players know about.

    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    Ah, yes, cesspools of unimaginable violence, such as Scandinavia. As per The Players Guide to the Sabbat, the entirety of my country, Finland, is Sabbat territory.
    Sorry, I totally forgot to check with a white person if my feelings are valid in polite society.

    Originally posted by Elphilm View Post
    Let me quote your own words from another thread right back at you
    You are partially right. To comment about a caricature I forgot to state it was just one possible take on it, and that it could be done in many different ways. Although I didn't at any point said that it was wrong as a playstyle, even if that portrait is taken at face value. I did had fun playing Sabbat before and I still have STing Sabbat games.

    Just let me add that in my opinion there is a huge difference between saying "describing my region as being dominated by this sect feels offensive" and saying "this is just a crappy excuse for a sect."

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  • Elphilm
    replied
    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    By portraying the Sabbat the way it does, VtM delves in the practice of portraying their chosen cities as cesspools of unimaginable violence where nothing makes sense. Because no, they're not portrayed as sensible monsters that at least know how to keep the masquerade, they're portrayed as unstoppable lunatics engaging in their antics with full supernatural might every night, raging across the streets in plain sight.

    What does that tell you about the places they live in? And which places were chosen for this?
    Ah, yes, cesspools of unimaginable violence, such as Scandinavia. As per The Players Guide to the Sabbat, the entirety of my country, Finland, is Sabbat territory. I'm sure we're all eager to hear about the supposed anti-Finnish slant of the original Sabbat writers, since you're implying that their antipathy toward Latin America is the reason for the Sabbat's presence there.

    Or maybe your ridiculous caricature of the 2nd Edition Sabbat is just that, a ridiculous caricature that does not reflect the original texts nor the authors' attitudes about real-world populations.

    Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
    Making the Sabbat really be the whimsical bloodfest it was rumored to be and at the same time a political powerhouse was one of the stupidest ideas ever, the clans developed for it didn't made sense, and then a lot of effort was put in the following years to create reason out of this mess without outwardly assuming it was stupid.
    Let me quote your own words from another thread right back at you: "You don't like when people crap on your favorite play style and faction, don't do that on others. It doesn't help your cause."

    Leave a comment:


  • Jonny
    replied
    I have said this before, but, of all the clans the Tzimisce are unfairly pigeonholed the most. And what's weird is that it's always as the Old Clan landed gentry even tho that part of the clan has been a tiny minority literally ever since the Anarch Revolt. The Old Can are to the Tzimisce what the True Brujah are to the regular Brujah. They are a Dark Ages hold out that do not fit in Modern Nights. The Tzimisce are a clan that's defined by embracing change and evolution, thats how you end up with characters like Vykos and Rattie-Ben and why they started the Anarch Revolt and why in V5 they have joined the Movement propper.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theodrim
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Does a child now need 5 dots to use Mortis? Does a sire have time to teach them that?
    Five dots in an ability represents the maximum human potential in a lifetime of dedicated study. Otherwise known as, more or less, the amount of time a vampire in the Dark Ages spends with their sire prior to being released...not accounting for what the fledgling learned when they were still mortal. So...yes?

    It's funny this only seems to be an issue when it comes to Cappadocians, really. It doesn't seem to be an issue with any other clan that specializes in a given ability set, whether it's martially-inclined Brujah, Ventrue in the ways of leadership and politics, Tremere and the occult, Toreador with history and art, Gangrel with "mere" survival...alas, for some incomprehensible reason, it's only the Cappadocians who apparently struggle with honing a childe's skillset upon which they will rely in unlife to a fine point.

    Fortitude is not a great hunting discipline
    Auspex is not a great hunting discipline.
    Only in your mind, because your mind seems constrained to the concept of feeding as exclusively "go out, seduce mortal or bonk them on head, have a sip". Literally no one else in this thread struggles with this (fundamentally simple) concept; perhaps you're the problematic element, here?

    Morits apparently requires massive amounts of pre-modern medical knowledge. So either the sire needs to invest a lot of time into a knowledge (in addition to teaching them the rules and regulations of undead society, how to feed without getting caught and so on) or the sire can embrace some of the very few medical experts to save themselves a lot of time.
    Indeed, it does. And yet, you seem to struggle with the idea of how that skillset can be employed for the precise purpose of feeding, when it's been spelled out for you, step by step, in exact, simple language.

    In a historical game setting in which the predominant medical treatment was bloodletting.

    Neither option looks great if you want Capadocians to be a big, thriving bloodline on par with any of the big six. And you still haven't adressed how the more Capadocians there are, the less valuable their services.
    And you don't seem to have noted the utterance of the word "cartel", or understand what it means. Which is ironic, considering how great a game you're talking up the Giovanni.
    Last edited by Theodrim; 09-18-2021, 07:20 PM.

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  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    I mean its not as though you even really need disciplines to hunt, the bites pretty awesome on it's own and frankly it isnt hard to feed on people in my experience as long as your social stats are okay, you're good at sneaking or you're smart and figured something out.

    it's also a pretty weird line of reasoning the Cappadocians specifically were doomed because their disciplines wernt mini maxed enough to hunting people. Frankly I got the impression they drank from the dead a lot of the time anyway, they even had a level one ritual to ring extra vitae out of corpses.the clan itself was historically very integrated into kine society so it's not like they were bad at being a vampire.
    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-18-2021, 06:29 PM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    Do you think all this academic focus will aid in making them a big and powerful clan?
    No, but that only seems to be an issue to you.

    You don't need to be powerful to survive, you don't need to be powerful to eke out a living, you don't need to be powerful to do research...

    The thread is about the Tzimisce ruling the Camarilla, not the Cappadocians or Salubri rulling the Camarilla. The Cap/Sal side discussion is just about how believable it is for those clans to be exterminated or not, and even that just 'cause some people here thinks they're good additions to the alternative make-up of the sects. You know, the make-up that will have "non-powerful" clans anyway.

    Even among the many that still would let one or both those clans out, you're the only one saying that they would die because of their Discipline spread instead of any other reason and then creating assumptions to back it up since there is no backup for your claims in the actual books. "Forcing" us to counter your assumptions in an unending rabbit hole of non-backed claims.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Do you think all this academic focus will aid in making them a big and powerful clan? It just seems like the other clans have more practical things to do with their time. Yes the capadocians might work out how to deliberately sicken someone, or how to save part of a herd, but is that really stronger than wealth, power and influence? The Blood supply issue also eats into research time. Plus An issue with guilds was that they stiffled innovation: If a respected elder says X is Y , and he's wrong, going against him may be a political issue, and you may have to keep your research to yourself as a result.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Bah, the Feast of Folly was the smartest move of any Antediluvian.

    Get rid of the dead weight!
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-18-2021, 02:01 PM.

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  • monteparnas
    replied
    Cappadocians dedicating their existence to academic search is literally their basic clan write-up. And academy works with education of new students since always. It is not just that students form the next generation of researchers, a lot of living, breathing teachers wouldn't give a fuck for the next generations. Teaching is less time-consuming than learning in the first place, can be done during actual research work, and make for better helpers and colleagues.

    Not only that, in academy you pretty much acquire prestige, status and patronage by showing-off your genius through spreading your knowledge instead of hoarding it. This is how medicine, astronomy, philosophy and everything else works since down of time. You may make your knowledge obscure for outsiders, but you pretty much need to spread among your peers and students to be effective at your trade. Otherwise you only get to be ineffectual, isolated and poor.

    That's before we even get to the point were a neonate with Auspex tend to learn far quicker than a Ghoul and will eventually have decades of experience themselves, that being devoted to those studies the clan naturally share knowledge and theories, so there is a collective building of understanding, or that by dealing with the very state of the body after and before death Mortis not only requires knowledge in Medicine, but also gives intimate experience with the workings of the human body. Or even the simplest fact that you can teach a fledgling by giving them books, tests and whatnot that can be reused and passed down to teach many others with minimal effort for the teacher.

    Above all, it is simply what is written in the books. Clanbook Cappadocian, for example, reinforces regularly that the clan dedicates itself to the study of medicine, that they are a scholar society first and foremost, that despite the teaching not going far inside the sire-childe relation specifically, they share knowledge a lot in their yearly meetings. That every member is expected to study and collaborate to the clan collective knowledge. To say that Cappadocians aren't more knowledgeable in Medicine is simply to ignore the official lore altogether for the benefit of one's own vision of how it should be.

    I'm not addressing the other arguments anymore, they were extensively discussed already and I already know they'll simply be ignored.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Does a child now need 5 dots to use Mortis? Does a sire have time to teach them that?

    Fortitude is not a great hunting discipline
    Auspex is not a great hunting discipline.
    Morits apparently requires massive amounts of pre-modern medical knowledge. So either the sire needs to invest a lot of time into a knowledge (in addition to teaching them the rules and regulations of undead society, how to feed without getting caught and so on) or the sire can embrace some of the very few medical experts to save themselves a lot of time. Neither option looks great if you want Capadocians to be a big, thriving bloodline on par with any of the big six. And you still haven't adressed how the more Capadocians there are, the less valuable their services.

    Fact is, Neonate Capadocians are disadvantaged. I'm not saying they can't work, but literally every other clan is going to have easier early nights than them. Even clans that struggle, like the Tzmisce and Ravnos, have an easier time than Cappadocians. It's only natural that they were replaced by the Giovanni.

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  • Theodrim
    replied
    I have maybe five minutes before I have to work, but I think I can bang this out in that time.

    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    And the Greeks were often wrong.
    The relevance of that statement is...what, now? You only contradict it by highlighting the importance of longer-term, holistic, education that only vampires would have access to, in this same post:

    An elder might be an unfathomable fountain of knowledge concerning archaic and often bogus medicine...
    Mortals in the Dark Ages get maybe thirty years' life expectancy as an adult to learn and practice their trade. That's a point many vampires, but especially scholastically-inclined ones, aren't even released yet. Are we beginning to see the contradiction?

    ...but how much do you think they are going to teach to their childer? there are far more pressing things to teach a fledgling than medicine, and a sire isn't likely to be willing to spend all their time teaching a childe,..childer are embraced to do things, and nothing impoverishes a master like teaching everything he knows.
    Let me get this straight.

    After an entire thread arguing Mortis is the only hat upon which Cappadocians can hang their hat to make them distinct and unique, your argument is...sires just aren't going to bother teaching childer the one knowledge used in basically every Mortis level, path, and ritual. And that, in contradiction to their clan write-up, they're not going to eye those with pre-existing talent or experience in it.

    What's next, Tzimisce that don't arse themselves teaching Body Crafts, or Tremere that don't bother teaching Occult? Ventrue that just decide Leadership isn't something to bother with in educating childer?
    Last edited by Theodrim; 09-18-2021, 07:01 AM.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    And the Greeks were often wrong. Sure a capadocian might have centuries of experience, the ability to increase their attributes over the years, and most importantly they're going to be some of the few who dare to conduct autopsies, but how much do you think they are going to teach to their childer? there are far more pressing things to teach a fledgling than medicine, and a sire isn't likely to be willing to spend all their time teaching a childe, childer are embraced to do things, and nothing impoverishes a master like teaching everything he knows. An elder might be an unfathomable fountain of knowledge concerning archaic and often bogus medicine, but his childer and most of the clan really aren't going to be much better than a ghouled barber.

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  • Theodrim
    replied
    Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
    They're immune.
    Their food isn't.

    Vampires really only need to avoid blood born diseases to boot.
    Which is most diseases, really, once you take into consideration pathogens spread by other vectors, but can and will also be found in blood samples because relevant pathogens infiltrate the circulatory system.

    If it isn't in the blood, they're unlikely to spread it.
    The hell they aren't. Taking the question of blood entirely out of the equation, we're discussing immortal creatures that exist in a perpetual state of stasis. They can and do still be contaminated by parasites (who, especially for certain clans and bloodlines, the parasites will feed from the vampire and become ghoul parasites), and their fingernails and mouths are still vectors for contamination especially in the Dark Ages when, even under the best of circumstances, hygiene and sanitation are woefully lacking compared to the modern era.

    Which is why the disease-carrier flaw isn't limited exclusively blood-borne diseases, in contrast to your earlier claim. One of the diseases explicitly mentioned in the flaw's very write-up is rabies, decidedly not a blood-borne disease.

    The only thing that separates them from the mortal Barber-surgeons are heightened senses and actual magic, and actual magic leads them into many traps and pitfalls.
    ...and being immortal creatures for whom the sum total of human knowledge of medicine, from the earliest discovered papyruses and Greek treatises all the way to a given chronicle's date, is at their fingertips. Spread via oral tradition, sure, but when your educator may have been the very author of those papyruses and treatises who since had centuries to hone their craft, oral tradition suddenly counts for a whole lot more in an age the mortals are still enamored with the likes of humorism and miasma theory.

    For once, rather than stubbornly cleave to your own misguided preconceptions about what VtDA and VtM ought to be and refuse any counter-argument otherwise because it conflicts with your -- clearly, at this point -- partisan worldview, take a moment to consider the full implications of what vampirism actually would be and how vampires of radically different skillsets would actually behave within their own social ecosystem.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    most vampires can weather a plague. They're immune. Vampires really only need to avoid blood born diseases to boot. If it isn't in the blood, they're unlikely to spread it. Besides that, I think you're really overselling Capadocian expertise. The only thing that separates them from the mortal Barber-surgeons are heightened senses and actual magic, and actual magic leads them into many traps and pitfalls. There isn't a spell of "cure disease". At best the thaumaturges (not the Necrophiles) have a ritual to cleanse a cup of blood.

    ...and the Malkavians really aren't that unpredictable, at least when they're out of the hands of players.

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