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Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

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  • Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

    The OG seven were the best lineup, every change is foolishness. I'm not saying this 'cause I'm a grognard; I started playing well after Gehenna came, but because the rationales of every change are terrible.

    Gangrel

    Why did the Gangrel Join the Camarilla?
    -A very real fear that if they didn't, they'd be singled out and destroyed like the Salubri. The Gangrel had a lot of fights with other clans, and as lonely outsiders, the last thing they'd want is an organized reprisal. The Gangrel have a weakness that threatens the masquerade, no innate discipline to cover it, and have a reputation as outlaws; With a large sect who outwardly professes that keeping the Masquerade is one of it's top priorities, this is pretence enough to exterminate the Gangrel, or to allow the Tremere to continue turning them into Gargoyles alongside the Tzmisce.

    -The Camarilla's adherence to the traditions actually favour the Gangrel and joining would be a boost in their status. The Gangrel would theoretically have equal rights to every other core member, and this means that they are far more likely to have their domain claims respected. Facts are: while old Gangrel might be deformed monsters who can live in the wilds, young Gangrel (the active majority) aren't deformed monsters and they're not really powerful enough to brave the wilds. The Gangrel benefit from urban and suburban domains, yet they have less advantages in acquiring and protecting urban domains and other resources compared to almost every other clan; Other vampires find it relatively easy to outcompete Gangrel for territory in urban environs, before they start co-operating. With Camarilla membership, the Gangrel can buy into cities with fair prestration and expect their rights to Domain to be upheld, and their voice to be heard if it isn't. If they went anarch or independent.. well... That'd go to shit and the entire clan would be at a massive disadvantage.

    Why did the Gangrel leave the Camarilla?

    -Someone believed the Gangrel were meat shields for the Camarilla rather than the Camarilla being meat shields for Gangrel which... eh... isn't that likely? I mean yeah, the Gangrel make great mercenaries but that's their choice. They get prestation out of it. It's not like they're being blood bound and thrown at the Sabbat, or that the Sabbat are particularly attracted to mediocre Gangrel territories, or that nobody shows up when the Gangrel ask for help...

    -Some high-up fool thought he saw evidence of antideluvians and thus thought the Camarilla should do something about that. IE hysteria, only this guy was a SNPC and thus unreasonably respected so this clan of individualists all agreed with his decision to leave....

    Meta reasoning for the Gangrel to leave the Cam
    Because a good chunk of players play Hobo-Gangrels and automatically align with Anarchs because they're poor and like being rugged underdogs... except they could totally play rugged underdogs without shitting the bed for all the other players who like Gangrel and actually want to succeed.

    Proposed solution
    The Gangrel just went a protracted period of time without a Justicar, it's not unusual, few Gangrel worthy of joining the higher ups are jumping at the chance for the chore of a position.

    Asssamites
    I'm not even sure if they're properly in the Cam yet.

    Why do the Schismatics want to join the Camarilla?
    Because Ur-Shulgi is terrifying and crazy as fuck, the Assamite sect is going to shit, the Ashirra are either a dying relic or full depending on your interpretation ,probably both, and the Camarilla is the biggest and bestest sect until V5. That's pretty reasonable.

    Why should the Camarilla reject the Assamites? Because they are guaranteed to provide massive amounts of instability and conflict.
    -Sheltering schismatics is inviting trouble with the loyalists who want to hunt them down or pose as loyalists so they can target other Camarilla members
    -A "moderate" Assamite is still radical by Camarilla standards. Don't want ideas like Diablerie to become widely provided for unsuspecting neonates.
    - Many Assamites were persecuted for their deep-seated religion. Do you know how much you have to warp these religions to practice them as a vampire? You'd have to be crazy, and these religious tensions are going to lead to further messes.
    -Paths other than humanity are greatly discouraged in the Camarilla. Blood, religious paths, honourable accord? Terrible, Bad, suspicious.
    - What are warriors good at? Murder, and only murder. The caste system has them locked in, and it won't take long till the Assamites remember their history and brand themselves as Judge, Jury and executioner. Yes, the schismatics have more viziers, but they all lie pretty good.
    -The Tremere curse has been lifted and the Baali curse is in swing.
    -The Tremere
    -For a schism, rebranding yourself to be closer to the figure your crazed, loyalist enemy worships really sends mixed signals to the secular society you're trying to join. Arabic doesn't particularly work well either when you're trying to go global. Yeah, Banu Haquim is a shit name, it's a downgrade from Assamite.
    -Assamite sorcerers are rare, disorganized targets for Tremere. Many practice styles that seem base, cruel and infernal. The fate of a sorcerer can go any way: enslaved, destroyed, successful; very few options don't create instability.

    Brujah
    Ahahahahahaha
    No one Brujah can speak for all Brujah. If a Brujah tries to do something, another Brujah will do the opposite. I have some interesting ideas on why they could have left (and by that I mean the Fascist nuCamarilla kicked them out and they're trying to spin it so that it seemed like the Brujah's choice, that is the only rational explanation)

    Lasombra
    As I hear it, the scenario we have with the Lasombra was an edict from a single city rather than a nuCamarilla wide thing. Still, it's a farcical scenario, one brought about alongside a general emasculation of an aggressive stereotypically macho and catholic clan; I can only conclude a writer really hates this clan and the players who enjoy playing them. The nuCam is a shitheap and the Lasombra are only going through hardships to join them rather than go the easier rout with the anarchs because the clan is a conservative stereotype and the nuCam are a conservative stereotype so they need to go together.... It's just sad talking about them, really. Don't let your prejudices hurt other people's good fun.


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  • #2
    So I largely agree here. It makes no sense to me at all for the Gangrel to leave the Camarilla. For the Gangrel, the Camarilla really doesn’t have many downsides. If they want the advantages of independence, just go into the woods or a small town and the Camarilla might as well not exist. Need institutional support for some reason, go into the city and you’re a Camarilla member with all associated benefits. There is no reason not to be in the Camarilla unless they had a strong unified agenda against the Camarilla and that doesn’t make any sense for such an individualistic Clan. I could see a case to be made for the Gangrel never joining as a Clan in the first place, but if they join they will never leave. A Justicar or inner circle member may step down, but there will surely be elder Gangrel who would want to step up.

    I also agree with the Assamites. Honestly, I have long (since it was first suggested back in revised edition) thought that the Assamites were the last Clan that would be allowed to join the Camarilla. I could more easily see the Baali, Settites, or Tzimisce as full fledged Camarilla members. Giovanni or Cappadocians would fit in way better.

    I could potentially see the Brujah leaving the Camarilla, they make more sense than Gangrel leaving because the Brujah have a more concrete objection to Camarilla leadership, have more of a political and ideological agenda, and are more negatively impacted by certain Camarilla policies. Though as you say, there would still be some Brujah members who want to be in the Camarilla. One of the issues here is that the Anarchs shouldn’t be an independent sect like the Sabbath, they should represent the resistance within the Camarilla as the have since 1st edition.

    I like the idea of Lasombra in the Camarilla, though they shouldn’t be in there as second class citizens. The Lasombra should be in the Camarilla with a position of power, not weakness. That undermines what makes the Clan cool.

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    • #3
      The Lasombra antitribu in the Camarilla worked well, all they needed was a little expansion. What V5 did to them was spiteful, and the foolish defectors undermine the Lasombra already in the Cam.


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      • #4
        Originally posted by Sergeant Brother
        I like the idea of Lasombra in the Camarilla, though they shouldn’t be in there as second class citizens. The Lasombra should be in the Camarilla with a position of power, not weakness. That undermines what makes the Clan cool.
        Lasombra being in the Camarilla, aside from their minority antitribu, makes little to no sense at all. The Lasombra staked their entire honor, prestige, weight, and institutional strength behind the Sabbat and were essentially the defacto rulers of the Sect, with the Tzimisce following as a close second in the Sabbat like how Tremere are a close second to the Venture in the Camarilla.

        The Lasombra as whole defecting in a mass drive to join the Camarilla.. is just one of the most stupid decisions in VTM to date right about now. They're guaranteed to become "second class citizens" because they've conceded so much face and ground to the Venture. This move also is just a grander decision to pull the rug out of the Sabbat from the game in general as well.

        EDIT: Also I disagree with the notion of the decision to put the Lasombra in the Camarilla was one about their supposed "conservative leanings". Its entirely about a general dislike of anything that has to do with the Sabbat.
        Last edited by Shakanaka; 09-04-2021, 02:31 PM.


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        • #5
          I disagree with some of those because of other aspect of the Cam that I think they should have expanded instead: it is supposedly the All Vamps Society.

          They're a secular organization that promotes the idea that all and every vampire live under their rules, like it or not. Even the position of Justicar can be extended to more clans without a big schism (although certainly not without a lot of politicking, conflict and some violence), and seriously, on most cases the Primigen of a city is far more important in this regard than the Justicars.

          After taking so many rules from Requiem already, what's the problem with making the sects more open and varied from place to place? Any prospect member would still have to play by the rules, and savvy politicians will anticipate and profit from conflicts more than not.

          So I'm not against the newcomers. I'm for more mixing of clans among sects and even Independence. There's no reason for the Giovanni to not have some members as direct participants in the Camarilla, or the Setites.


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          • #6
            i agree that these changes has been poorly rationalized but that doesn't mean it's an inherently bad idea just a poorly executed one.

            that being said the inclusion of both the assamites and the lasombra could've easily be explained to be part of the negotiations with the ashirra sect (given that they're both mayor clans within said sect) rather then being sabbat/ur-shulgi refugees. the ur-shulgi schism would make more sense as an explenation for why there are haqimites within the anarchs rather then the cam.

            the brujah thing would make more sense if the cam was in some ways punishing the entire clan for theo's actions untill the situation got sorted and many brujah taking issue with being punished for some dickhead's actions they had nothing to do with because they're from the same clan rather then "my fav char said so and all the brujah think he's as awsome as i think he is" that we got.
            Last edited by archderd; 09-04-2021, 02:53 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by monteparnas
              After taking so many rules from Requiem already
              That's one of my main contentions with V5 in the first place. Its trying hard to be like Requiem. I have nothing against people who like Requiem, but stuff from it really doesn't need to be hamfistedly sewn into VTM at all. Both games have different audiences that like different things. My like for oWoD over nWoD isn't even one of nostalgia either, since I only got into World of Darkness in general since 2017.

              Even then, V5 only has taken game mechanics from Requiem so far, but we're mostly discussing metaplot/narrative aspects here. And ironically to begin with, V5 metaplot-wise is very divergent from Requiem; VTM has cut the list of possible Vampire Sects from 3 only to 2, while VTR has like 5+ covenants.


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              • #8
                Ah, for Clarity, I've got no problem with Clans joining the Camarilla. IMO the Settites and Corpse-fuckers should've joined already, and the Lasombra antis should've grown. The Ravnos are testy, and could probably go for a 30% cam, 70% Independent kinda split, or they could remain public enemy. Most bloodlines are good to go. The real sticklers are the Tzmisce, because Vicissitude really should be feared and would have too much of an effect on the Camarilla, and the Assamites, because of the reasons outlined in the OP. I'm actually rather annoyed that the CFers remain detached from the Camarilla, the Rationale for the Giovanni keeping apart from the Camarilla is just... bad, but it's nowhere near as bad as the Gangrel/Brujah leaving.


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                • #9
                  The Giovanni and/or Cappadocians make sense as Camarilla members. Though it would have been cool if the writers could have waited just a few more years so that the Promise of 1528 could officially end and then the Giovanni join the Camarilla. The Settites joining seems reasonable, well, at least more reasonable than the Assamites. V5 even had a plot where one of the two was going to join the Camarilla, but they chose poorly and had it be the Assamites rather than the Settites. Which also made the sects less balanced since the Camarilla now had 2 Blood Sorcery Clans and the Anarchs have 2 Protean Clans. With the default V5 political landscape, it seems more reasonable to me that the surviving Ravnos would join the Anarchs and that the Camarilla would basically just crush them at their convenience unless an individual really had something valuable to offer.

                  Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post

                  Lasombra being in the Camarilla, aside from their minority antitribu, makes little to no sense at all. The Lasombra staked their entire honor, prestige, weight, and institutional strength behind the Sabbat and were essentially the defacto rulers of the Sect, with the Tzimisce following as a close second in the Sabbat like how Tremere are a close second to the Venture in the Camarilla.

                  The Lasombra as whole defecting in a mass drive to join the Camarilla.. is just one of the most stupid decisions in VTM to date right about now. They're guaranteed to become "second class citizens" because they've conceded so much face and ground to the Venture. This move also is just a grander decision to pull the rug out of the Sabbat from the game in general as well.

                  EDIT: Also I disagree with the notion of the decision to put the Lasombra in the Camarilla was one about their supposed "conservative leanings". Its entirely about a general dislike of anything that has to do with the Sabbat.
                  For all vampires of a Clan to join only one sect and to entirely avoid the other, the Clan would have to be exceptionally unified, like the Giovanni or Tremere. Th Lasombra we’re not, we know that they weren’t because they were at the center of the Anarch Revolt with elders and anarchs fighting. Surely not every Lasombra elder is going to be killed or join the anarchs and the survivors are going to be more inclined to join the Camarilla.

                  If I were on the V5 team and tasked with the job of making the Lasombra a Camarilla Clan, I would have emphasized that there were always Lasombra in the Camarilla, that in recent years they have become more prominent, and that their elders in particular became more active. In the midst of some difficulties that the Camarilla was having, the some prominent Camarilla Lasombra come forth and offer aid, but they demand full Clan recognition, including the appointment of a Lasombra Justicar. In this way, the Lasombra demand membership rather than beg for it, they enter from a position of strength and the majority of Camarilla Lasombra will have been there for a long time. Then the established Camarilla Lasombra can facilitate (and vet) Sabbat defectors.

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                  • #10
                    My biggest problem with the final metaplot changes before VtM ended again, V5 is as much of it’s own thing from VtM as Requiem, was the Assamite Schismatics joining the Camarilla. Sure Ur’Shulgi persecutes them for clinging to religion born thousand years after his embrace but still to run to the people who cursed you for hundreds of years and that those people who cursed you because that was the only way to stop you from trying to Diablerize everyone would accept you amongst them... it simply makes no sense at all.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Possessed View Post
                      My biggest problem with the final metaplot changes before VtM ended again, V5 is as much of it’s own thing from VtM as Requiem, was the Assamite Schismatics joining the Camarilla. Sure Ur’Shulgi persecutes them for clinging to religion born thousand years after his embrace but still to run to the people who cursed you for hundreds of years and that those people who cursed you because that was the only way to stop you from trying to Diablerize everyone would accept you amongst them... it simply makes no sense at all.
                      Yes, completely right. Some of the other changes I can kinda wrap my mind around even if it’s not what I would do, but this makes the least sense.

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                      • #12
                        the Promise of 1528
                        That's really the problem. The Promise isn't necessary for the Giovanni to fulfil their nefarious goals, all it really does is add a headache for players trying to integrate the Giovanni (admittedly, this is because the books have been rather shy on sections for how to incorporate Independents/bloodlines into Camarilla cities, which I think should be down to the Prince's rulings (IE storytellers do what they want) but STs really need something to get the ideas rolling, you can't just leave a blank and expect folks to know what to do. The death bloodlines, be they Capadocian, Giovanni, Samedi or Nagaraja would all benefit from Camarilla acceptance (I think the Nagajara might be asked too many questions they don't want to answer, so maybe not them, but I also think they could be persecuted for their clan weakness if they don't find some kind of compromise) . The Giovanni could certainly work some kind of agreement to allow their structure to persevere, the Tremere very likely have some clause that allows Lords/Pointifexes special rights to visit Chantries under their jurisdiction.
                        Last edited by MyWifeIsScary; 09-04-2021, 04:13 PM.


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                        • #13
                          While I don't agree with the analysis of things completely, I have to agree that the end results don't really make much sense.

                          On the Lasombra specifically, something that straddles in-universe and meta considerations: The Lasombra don't have a "role" to play in the Cam. The Cam isn't lacking in social power inclined Clans with the Ventrue and Toreador taking the lead, and the Tremere and remaining Brujah still more than capable of focusing on that role. The Cam has the Tremere for strange magical powers (and regardless of edition get the better Discipline for this). The Cam has the Nosferatu, Malkavians, and remaining Gangrel that can take on the sneaky spy stuff. Those three and the Brujah already have the "second class citizen" issue handled too... which is why the idea of the Brujah or Gangrel leaving could be entertained.

                          The Lasombra just aren't bringing anything to the table outside of what amounts to the Lasombra surrendering in the Cam-Sabbat conflict. Playing a Lasombra in a setting where a large number have switched to the Cam is playing someone that's literally redundant in their society. Pre-V5 we at least could have the small group of Lasombra ATs be useful as experts on dealing with their Sabbat Clanmates, and Obtenebration was unique enough to try to carve out a local niche and didn't destroy your Humanity like Oblivion does.

                          ------------

                          I do think there's a good solution here with the Banu Haqim and Lasombra, but it's not the Cam. It's the Ashirra. We already have the Gehenna War thing. So a huge number of Sabbat went to NAME, did their mass embrace tactics, but now you have a lot of in-life Muslim vampires with minimal loyalty to the Sabbat trying to not get wiped out as the Gehenna War doesn't go as planned.

                          That could easily be the predicate for a revitalized Ashirra now flush with new members seeking refuge from the Sabbat. The Ashirra could certainly use more Lasombra to keep this organized as they're not as top heavily in the social powerhouse Clans, and are a natural place for the Banu Haqim to land if they want to get away from Ur-Shulgi.

                          A revitalized Ashirra would then be on good grounds to negotiate a balanced alliance with the Cam rather than joining the Cam outright (or an alliance that might as well be this). This would let you get the benefits of normalizing their presence in Cam Domains without trying to squeeze them into the Cam's official structures.

                          You could also, if you get the right writers that know NAME geopolitics, Islam, and smaller ethnic and religious concerns, use this shake up within the Ashirra to fix a bunch of the lingering issues with the Sect's earlier writing.

                          From there you have tons of story seeds to fit any number of chronicles.

                          You can use lingering tensions to explore the legacy of colonialism in NAME via cities that sit on the border of Cam and Ashirra (like Istanbul or Jerusalem). Ashirra infernalist hunters could get invited into your normal Cam city and then deal with the culture clash, but also why that would be necessary. You can go the other direction as experienced fighters against the Sabbat in the Cam travel to an Ashirra Domain that needs some help clearing out some Sabbat hiding among insurgents. You can try to build up a vampire NATO or Five Eyes with the Ashirra, Laibon, and Jati as the Cam isn't in a position to force the smaller geographically limited Sects into joining, but a stronger defensive pact would benefit all of them to deal with the remaining Sabbat, making sure Anarchs and Independents can't try to use divisions between the Sects to get away with dangerous and subversive activities, stopping any Elders/Meths/worse that are running amok because of the Beckoning, the threat of the SI, etc.

                          It's not trying to replicate VtR's Covenants, it's embracing VtM's existing legacy of smaller local vampire societies that didn't join the Cam because they weren't part of the disaster of vampire activity in Europe that led to the First Inquisition and the fallout of it. It's helping to modernize and globalize the setting, as we don't live in a world where one superpower can actually call the shots anymore, and geopolitical power is held by a mesh of closely aligned governments; even if that means some very questionable ethical alliances from the perspective of everyday members of any given society.

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                          • #14
                            Oh boy, that weird moment when the discussion sounds kind of interesting but it's kind of complicated because you never used any of those metaplot events in the first place due to how utterly off-kilter the homebrew lore of your own game is in relation to the canon.....Oy vey.

                            But here we go anyway, for git and shiggles:


                            - Brujah, Gangrel & Malkavians still have that usual schizo dynamic where they produce almost as many anarchs & Caitiffs as tradition-abiding kindred that try to fit the status quo.


                            - The "Camarilla is changing/when did we become inclusive?!" plot niche in our games is taken by the formation of the Unbound, an alliance of all those that claimed no ties to "Antediluvian Legends" under the umbrella of the Camarilla of all kindred being part of the effort to preserve the cainites through the Traditions, taking also responsability for dealing with "the Caitiff Problem". The brainchild of a cabal of (mostly Caitiff) Archons, Lasombra Antitribu, a number of Tzimisce and bloodline elders, not to mention a few Cappadocian remnants plus Mukhtar Bey and Sarrasine, forming a "14th clan" of sorts.

                            The Lasombra antitribu and the allied bloodline elders had their collective infuence bolstered by the bloc's formation, not to mention the access to a mass of eager potential pupils/agents/pawns in the form of young Caitiff in many cities through the western world (& beyond, but i digress), Caitiffs who joined the Unbound now had access to mentors and a base of support to teach and even protect them, that though initially limited was much better than none, not to mention a grudging degree of acceptance & recognition.

                            The Camarilla gained a major propaganda boost in deflating noddist traditionalism inside its ranks and anarch criticism and independent criticisms, it made the Camarilla seem less conservative and static to kindred in general and specially relevant more dynamic and adaptable in the younger ones' eyes. True, many of those same elders never actually cared for having such things in the first place, but now that it's in the table, might as well reap the laurels instead of starting an international backroom war that will benefit the sect in no way while sabotaging its own image & propaganda.

                            True, a bunch of the most active noddists are actually pretty respectable elders that also happen to be in the "make Caitiff into chow for the thirsty ones" camp and are utter livid at the fact the first Unbound Justicar is a Caitiff (previously a veteran Archon and one of the masterminds of the whole circus), but caught completely off-guard many of those feel at the moment forced to scramble to the shadows while trying to recover their bearings and make sense of the whole situation.

                            The whole issue of "Caitiffs are getting Camarilla representativeness now?!?" has been such a monumental diplomatic-political kerfuffle that everybody is kind of scrambling to even grasp how it affects them or not and how should they answer to the subject and its multiple - Lasombra Antitribu & Tzimisce Old Farts kind of have their own sub-sect now, Cappadocians are back, rumors exist of Salubri among the Unbound what bothers the Tremere mightly - colateral repercussions.


                            - As previously said, the Cappadocians are still around though in much smaller numbers. That said, their relationship with the Giovanni is more nuanced and convoluted. For one thing, the Giovanni claim no relationship with the Cappadocians and might actually be, much like what we know as Lasombra, be splinter bloodlines/factions of the same clan - meaning at least one of them is blatantly lying about consuming their Antediluvian, if not both.

                            (Also, it's possible the Cappadocians themselves are lying/deluding themselves about being a clan and "just" the brood of Japheth, a childe of Saulot from before the development of the arts of the 3rd eye. The whole "clan of death" thing - and much of "modern" noddism might be the product of a self-serving campaign of fiction/propaganda by undead christian monks of late roman/early medieval times)

                            The Giovanni did participate in hunting down the Caps? Yes, but it was mostly due to rivalry over necromantic lore and poaching disputed resources of mutual interest. All of that said, the Cappadocians were also a clan with a serious interest, not to say obsession, with chistian thinking and active presence in religious life across multiple orders, churchs & monasteries, with no mind manipulation or stealth disciplines and form of death magic that could be masquerade-breaching like hell and a history of doomsday saying/mania. Meaning a much larger proportion of their membership were prime targets for the Inquisition than any other clan, maybe all clans combined at that. Stories about a common origin & pogrom exist? Yes, but they are mostly conspiracy theories of kindred who messed up their lore research - at least according to the Giovanni leadership, if someone cares to question them on the subject.

                            The contemporary Cappadocians are, to put it bluntly, a complete utter mess. The OG Inquisition hit them harder than everybody else, then the Giovanni swooped to steal their stuff, along with proto-Sabbat covens, packs of autarkis & assamite hunting parties out for diablerie, revenge or both. And then came the Camarilla to clean up - with fire - on any potentially masquerade-breaching remaining crazies the previous groups might have allowed to escape. Half the time those hunting them do not even know it's Cappadocians they are destroying and not some osiris of Malkavian, Lasombra, Toreador, Caitiff or whatever extraction with christian underpinnings. That said, if history teaches us anything, is that religious fanatics expect persecution and sometimes persist because of it. Meaning that while far less numerous in relation to the "big clans", the Cappadocians have a very extensive underground presence amidst noddist circles, gehenna cults (True Hand included) and other such groups, with a smattering of more temporal or political-minded survivors participating in respectable kindred society and the Ivory Tower, Ashirra and other regional power blocs.

                            Meaning that those more agnostic/atheist/moderate Cappadocian elders and their childer are a far from insignificant part of the Unbound, while a possibly much larger, but considerably more splintered number of their brethren are spread across the mess of cliques that compose the kindred equivalent of Alt-Right that also includes those individuals or groups that see Caitiffs as worse than gutter trash and actual signs of incoming Gehenna or worse. So, more divided and agitated than ever.
                            Last edited by Baaldam; 09-04-2021, 06:36 PM.

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                            • #15
                              I mostly agree with the OP.

                              In-universe though, I could see the Lasombra Antitribu building their numbers slowly, until the Kings and Queens of Shadow along with the Grimaldi defected to the Camarilla taking the lions share of Sabbat money and assets in the mortal world with them. This would fortify the position of the suddenly enlarged Anttribu.

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