Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

[CTPhipps]

Yeah, I’m not a fan of the Promise, it actually doesn’t make sense to me. But, it has been a part of canon for a long time so I figured I’d go with it.

Yeah, I think that making the Hecata was a missed opportunity considering all of the various Necromancer bloodlines out there. Making the Hecata might be good for a Necromancer chronicle, but most players aren’t going to want to play that. They would rather incorporate a Necromancer character in a a Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch game. I think it would have facilitated such play better if they had decided on certain bloodlines to join certain sects.

Of course, people can always play a Necromancer in a (for example) Camarilla game anyway, but either the ST needs to hand wave away the political tension or your character is going to be in the outsider role.

Pure Speculation: The Promise is a post-facto justification for why the Giovanni aren't part of the Camarilla.

Mind you, I could see why the Camarilla would be nervous about ANOTHER bunch of necromancer diablerists joining. I could see the Tremere as the primary voice against them.

[Reasor]

I'm glad that the Gangrel's departure from the Camarilla with the launch of Revised Edition came up in the original post; like much of V5's faction shuffleboard, it *feels* like something that came down from on high for reasons outside itself. It puts the Camarilla on the ropes against the Sabbat at the start of that edition to the game, adding to the dramatic tension of the loss of America's east coast, but it doesn't serve the clan's interests or lead to anything noteworthy at all. Not only is the thing the Gangrel fought in upstate New York *not* an antedeluvian (it's just the supplementary novel equivalent of a Storyteller NPC armed with a Macguffin), the Gangrel as a clan spend the rest of the edition not organizing, not joining the Sabbat, not getting ready for Gehenna in any way. They just spend the rest of Revised as Anarchs, which was all the edition's head runner wanted for them.

As long as I'm critiquing clan changes, the Nagaraja being absorbed into the children of Cappadocius is sheer nonsense. I get it, too many clans and bloodlines had Necromancy and it stopped being special. Fine. Good point, even. Merge the Cappadocians and finally resolve that haggard storyline, but the Nagaraja are a wholly different thing of their own.

[Sergeant Brother]

That's really the problem. The Promise isn't necessary for the Giovanni to fulfil their nefarious goals, all it really does is add a headache for players trying to integrate the Giovanni (admittedly, this is because the books have been rather shy on sections for how to incorporate Independents/bloodlines into Camarilla cities, which I think should be down to the Prince's rulings (IE storytellers do what they want) but STs really need something to get the ideas rolling, you can't just leave a blank and expect folks to know what to do. The death bloodlines, be they Capadocian, Giovanni, Samedi or Nagaraja would all benefit from Camarilla acceptance (I think the Nagajara might be asked too many questions they don't want to answer, so maybe not them, but I also think they could be persecuted for their clan weakness if they don't find some kind of compromise) . The Giovanni could certainly work some kind of agreement to allow their structure to persevere, the Tremere very likely have some clause that allows Lords/Pointifexes special rights to visit Chantries under their jurisdiction.

Yeah, I’m not a fan of the Promise, it actually doesn’t make sense to me. But, it has been a part of canon for a long time so I figured I’d go with it.

Yeah, I think that making the Hecata was a missed opportunity considering all of the various Necromancer bloodlines out there. Making the Hecata might be good for a Necromancer chronicle, but most players aren’t going to want to play that. They would rather incorporate a Necromancer character in a a Camarilla, Sabbat, or Anarch game. I think it would have facilitated such play better if they had decided on certain bloodlines to join certain sects.

Of course, people can always play a Necromancer in a (for example) Camarilla game anyway, but either the ST needs to hand wave away the political tension or your character is going to be in the outsider role.

[CTPhipps]

To be fair, regarding the Assamites, the Camarilla knows that Ur-Shulgi's people plan the genocide of all non-Haqim vampires.

No point in not antagonizing them since they're already antagonized by other vampires' existence.

[AnubisXy]

If nothing else, the Lasombra suddenly pulling up stakes and abandoning the Sabbat to become second fiddle in the Camarilla makes as much sense to me as the Ventrue suddenly pulling up stakes and abandoning the Camarilla to play second fiddle in the Sabbat. That might happen on a smaller level with individuals doing that, but no matter how I look at it at an institutional level I just can't buy it.

If they wanted to have the Lasombra in a more prominent position in the Camarilla it would have made more sense for the Lasombra Antitribu to step up and take one of the vacant seats left by the Gangrel or Brujah.

[Trollroot]

I mostly agree with the OP.

In-universe though, I could see the Lasombra Antitribu building their numbers slowly, until the Kings and Queens of Shadow along with the Grimaldi defected to the Camarilla taking the lions share of Sabbat money and assets in the mortal world with them. This would fortify the position of the suddenly enlarged Anttribu.

[Baaldam]

Oh boy, that weird moment when the discussion sounds kind of interesting but it's kind of complicated because you never used any of those metaplot events in the first place due to how utterly off-kilter the homebrew lore of your own game is in relation to the canon.....Oy vey.

But here we go anyway, for git and shiggles:


- Brujah, Gangrel & Malkavians still have that usual schizo dynamic where they produce almost as many anarchs & Caitiffs as tradition-abiding kindred that try to fit the status quo.


- The "Camarilla is changing/when did we become inclusive?!" plot niche in our games is taken by the formation of the Unbound, an alliance of all those that claimed no ties to "Antediluvian Legends" under the umbrella of the Camarilla of all kindred being part of the effort to preserve the cainites through the Traditions, taking also responsability for dealing with "the Caitiff Problem". The brainchild of a cabal of (mostly Caitiff) Archons, Lasombra Antitribu, a number of Tzimisce and bloodline elders, not to mention a few Cappadocian remnants plus Mukhtar Bey and Sarrasine, forming a "14th clan" of sorts.

The Lasombra antitribu and the allied bloodline elders had their collective infuence bolstered by the bloc's formation, not to mention the access to a mass of eager potential pupils/agents/pawns in the form of young Caitiff in many cities through the western world (& beyond, but i digress), Caitiffs who joined the Unbound now had access to mentors and a base of support to teach and even protect them, that though initially limited was much better than none, not to mention a grudging degree of acceptance & recognition.

The Camarilla gained a major propaganda boost in deflating noddist traditionalism inside its ranks and anarch criticism and independent criticisms, it made the Camarilla seem less conservative and static to kindred in general and specially relevant more dynamic and adaptable in the younger ones' eyes. True, many of those same elders never actually cared for having such things in the first place, but now that it's in the table, might as well reap the laurels instead of starting an international backroom war that will benefit the sect in no way while sabotaging its own image & propaganda.

True, a bunch of the most active noddists are actually pretty respectable elders that also happen to be in the "make Caitiff into chow for the thirsty ones" camp and are utter livid at the fact the first Unbound Justicar is a Caitiff (previously a veteran Archon and one of the masterminds of the whole circus), but caught completely off-guard many of those feel at the moment forced to scramble to the shadows while trying to recover their bearings and make sense of the whole situation.

The whole issue of "Caitiffs are getting Camarilla representativeness now?!?" has been such a monumental diplomatic-political kerfuffle that everybody is kind of scrambling to even grasp how it affects them or not and how should they answer to the subject and its multiple - Lasombra Antitribu & Tzimisce Old Farts kind of have their own sub-sect now, Cappadocians are back, rumors exist of Salubri among the Unbound what bothers the Tremere mightly - colateral repercussions.


- As previously said, the Cappadocians are still around though in much smaller numbers. That said, their relationship with the Giovanni is more nuanced and convoluted. For one thing, the Giovanni claim no relationship with the Cappadocians and might actually be, much like what we know as Lasombra, be splinter bloodlines/factions of the same clan - meaning at least one of them is blatantly lying about consuming their Antediluvian, if not both.

(Also, it's possible the Cappadocians themselves are lying/deluding themselves about being a clan and "just" the brood of Japheth, a childe of Saulot from before the development of the arts of the 3rd eye. The whole "clan of death" thing - and much of "modern" noddism might be the product of a self-serving campaign of fiction/propaganda by undead christian monks of late roman/early medieval times)

The Giovanni did participate in hunting down the Caps? Yes, but it was mostly due to rivalry over necromantic lore and poaching disputed resources of mutual interest. All of that said, the Cappadocians were also a clan with a serious interest, not to say obsession, with chistian thinking and active presence in religious life across multiple orders, churchs & monasteries, with no mind manipulation or stealth disciplines and form of death magic that could be masquerade-breaching like hell and a history of doomsday saying/mania. Meaning a much larger proportion of their membership were prime targets for the Inquisition than any other clan, maybe all clans combined at that. Stories about a common origin & pogrom exist? Yes, but they are mostly conspiracy theories of kindred who messed up their lore research - at least according to the Giovanni leadership, if someone cares to question them on the subject.

The contemporary Cappadocians are, to put it bluntly, a complete utter mess. The OG Inquisition hit them harder than everybody else, then the Giovanni swooped to steal their stuff, along with proto-Sabbat covens, packs of autarkis & assamite hunting parties out for diablerie, revenge or both. And then came the Camarilla to clean up - with fire - on any potentially masquerade-breaching remaining crazies the previous groups might have allowed to escape. Half the time those hunting them do not even know it's Cappadocians they are destroying and not some osiris of Malkavian, Lasombra, Toreador, Caitiff or whatever extraction with christian underpinnings. That said, if history teaches us anything, is that religious fanatics expect persecution and sometimes persist because of it. Meaning that while far less numerous in relation to the "big clans", the Cappadocians have a very extensive underground presence amidst noddist circles, gehenna cults (True Hand included) and other such groups, with a smattering of more temporal or political-minded survivors participating in respectable kindred society and the Ivory Tower, Ashirra and other regional power blocs.

Meaning that those more agnostic/atheist/moderate Cappadocian elders and their childer are a far from insignificant part of the Unbound, while a possibly much larger, but considerably more splintered number of their brethren are spread across the mess of cliques that compose the kindred equivalent of Alt-Right that also includes those individuals or groups that see Caitiffs as worse than gutter trash and actual signs of incoming Gehenna or worse. So, more divided and agitated than ever.

[Heavy Arms]

While I don't agree with the analysis of things completely, I have to agree that the end results don't really make much sense.

On the Lasombra specifically, something that straddles in-universe and meta considerations: The Lasombra don't have a "role" to play in the Cam. The Cam isn't lacking in social power inclined Clans with the Ventrue and Toreador taking the lead, and the Tremere and remaining Brujah still more than capable of focusing on that role. The Cam has the Tremere for strange magical powers (and regardless of edition get the better Discipline for this). The Cam has the Nosferatu, Malkavians, and remaining Gangrel that can take on the sneaky spy stuff. Those three and the Brujah already have the "second class citizen" issue handled too... which is why the idea of the Brujah or Gangrel leaving could be entertained.

The Lasombra just aren't bringing anything to the table outside of what amounts to the Lasombra surrendering in the Cam-Sabbat conflict. Playing a Lasombra in a setting where a large number have switched to the Cam is playing someone that's literally redundant in their society. Pre-V5 we at least could have the small group of Lasombra ATs be useful as experts on dealing with their Sabbat Clanmates, and Obtenebration was unique enough to try to carve out a local niche and didn't destroy your Humanity like Oblivion does.

------------

I do think there's a good solution here with the Banu Haqim and Lasombra, but it's not the Cam. It's the Ashirra. We already have the Gehenna War thing. So a huge number of Sabbat went to NAME, did their mass embrace tactics, but now you have a lot of in-life Muslim vampires with minimal loyalty to the Sabbat trying to not get wiped out as the Gehenna War doesn't go as planned.

That could easily be the predicate for a revitalized Ashirra now flush with new members seeking refuge from the Sabbat. The Ashirra could certainly use more Lasombra to keep this organized as they're not as top heavily in the social powerhouse Clans, and are a natural place for the Banu Haqim to land if they want to get away from Ur-Shulgi.

A revitalized Ashirra would then be on good grounds to negotiate a balanced alliance with the Cam rather than joining the Cam outright (or an alliance that might as well be this). This would let you get the benefits of normalizing their presence in Cam Domains without trying to squeeze them into the Cam's official structures.

You could also, if you get the right writers that know NAME geopolitics, Islam, and smaller ethnic and religious concerns, use this shake up within the Ashirra to fix a bunch of the lingering issues with the Sect's earlier writing.

From there you have tons of story seeds to fit any number of chronicles.

You can use lingering tensions to explore the legacy of colonialism in NAME via cities that sit on the border of Cam and Ashirra (like Istanbul or Jerusalem). Ashirra infernalist hunters could get invited into your normal Cam city and then deal with the culture clash, but also why that would be necessary. You can go the other direction as experienced fighters against the Sabbat in the Cam travel to an Ashirra Domain that needs some help clearing out some Sabbat hiding among insurgents. You can try to build up a vampire NATO or Five Eyes with the Ashirra, Laibon, and Jati as the Cam isn't in a position to force the smaller geographically limited Sects into joining, but a stronger defensive pact would benefit all of them to deal with the remaining Sabbat, making sure Anarchs and Independents can't try to use divisions between the Sects to get away with dangerous and subversive activities, stopping any Elders/Meths/worse that are running amok because of the Beckoning, the threat of the SI, etc.

It's not trying to replicate VtR's Covenants, it's embracing VtM's existing legacy of smaller local vampire societies that didn't join the Cam because they weren't part of the disaster of vampire activity in Europe that led to the First Inquisition and the fallout of it. It's helping to modernize and globalize the setting, as we don't live in a world where one superpower can actually call the shots anymore, and geopolitical power is held by a mesh of closely aligned governments; even if that means some very questionable ethical alliances from the perspective of everyday members of any given society.

[MyWifeIsScary]

the Promise of 1528

That's really the problem. The Promise isn't necessary for the Giovanni to fulfil their nefarious goals, all it really does is add a headache for players trying to integrate the Giovanni (admittedly, this is because the books have been rather shy on sections for how to incorporate Independents/bloodlines into Camarilla cities, which I think should be down to the Prince's rulings (IE storytellers do what they want) but STs really need something to get the ideas rolling, you can't just leave a blank and expect folks to know what to do. The death bloodlines, be they Capadocian, Giovanni, Samedi or Nagaraja would all benefit from Camarilla acceptance (I think the Nagajara might be asked too many questions they don't want to answer, so maybe not them, but I also think they could be persecuted for their clan weakness if they don't find some kind of compromise) . The Giovanni could certainly work some kind of agreement to allow their structure to persevere, the Tremere very likely have some clause that allows Lords/Pointifexes special rights to visit Chantries under their jurisdiction.

[Sergeant Brother]

My biggest problem with the final metaplot changes before VtM ended again, V5 is as much of it’s own thing from VtM as Requiem, was the Assamite Schismatics joining the Camarilla. Sure Ur’Shulgi persecutes them for clinging to religion born thousand years after his embrace but still to run to the people who cursed you for hundreds of years and that those people who cursed you because that was the only way to stop you from trying to Diablerize everyone would accept you amongst them... it simply makes no sense at all.

Yes, completely right. Some of the other changes I can kinda wrap my mind around even if it’s not what I would do, but this makes the least sense.

[Possessed]

My biggest problem with the final metaplot changes before VtM ended again, V5 is as much of it’s own thing from VtM as Requiem, was the Assamite Schismatics joining the Camarilla. Sure Ur’Shulgi persecutes them for clinging to religion born thousand years after his embrace but still to run to the people who cursed you for hundreds of years and that those people who cursed you because that was the only way to stop you from trying to Diablerize everyone would accept you amongst them... it simply makes no sense at all.

[Sergeant Brother]

The Giovanni and/or Cappadocians make sense as Camarilla members. Though it would have been cool if the writers could have waited just a few more years so that the Promise of 1528 could officially end and then the Giovanni join the Camarilla. The Settites joining seems reasonable, well, at least more reasonable than the Assamites. V5 even had a plot where one of the two was going to join the Camarilla, but they chose poorly and had it be the Assamites rather than the Settites. Which also made the sects less balanced since the Camarilla now had 2 Blood Sorcery Clans and the Anarchs have 2 Protean Clans. With the default V5 political landscape, it seems more reasonable to me that the surviving Ravnos would join the Anarchs and that the Camarilla would basically just crush them at their convenience unless an individual really had something valuable to offer.

Lasombra being in the Camarilla, aside from their minority antitribu, makes little to no sense at all. The Lasombra staked their entire honor, prestige, weight, and institutional strength behind the Sabbat and were essentially the defacto rulers of the Sect, with the Tzimisce following as a close second in the Sabbat like how Tremere are a close second to the Venture in the Camarilla.

The Lasombra as whole defecting in a mass drive to join the Camarilla.. is just one of the most stupid decisions in VTM to date right about now. They're guaranteed to become "second class citizens" because they've conceded so much face and ground to the Venture. This move also is just a grander decision to pull the rug out of the Sabbat from the game in general as well.

EDIT: Also I disagree with the notion of the decision to put the Lasombra in the Camarilla was one about their supposed "conservative leanings". Its entirely about a general dislike of anything that has to do with the Sabbat.

For all vampires of a Clan to join only one sect and to entirely avoid the other, the Clan would have to be exceptionally unified, like the Giovanni or Tremere. Th Lasombra we’re not, we know that they weren’t because they were at the center of the Anarch Revolt with elders and anarchs fighting. Surely not every Lasombra elder is going to be killed or join the anarchs and the survivors are going to be more inclined to join the Camarilla.

If I were on the V5 team and tasked with the job of making the Lasombra a Camarilla Clan, I would have emphasized that there were always Lasombra in the Camarilla, that in recent years they have become more prominent, and that their elders in particular became more active. In the midst of some difficulties that the Camarilla was having, the some prominent Camarilla Lasombra come forth and offer aid, but they demand full Clan recognition, including the appointment of a Lasombra Justicar. In this way, the Lasombra demand membership rather than beg for it, they enter from a position of strength and the majority of Camarilla Lasombra will have been there for a long time. Then the established Camarilla Lasombra can facilitate (and vet) Sabbat defectors.

[MyWifeIsScary]

Ah, for Clarity, I've got no problem with Clans joining the Camarilla. IMO the Settites and Corpse-fuckers should've joined already, and the Lasombra antis should've grown. The Ravnos are testy, and could probably go for a 30% cam, 70% Independent kinda split, or they could remain public enemy. Most bloodlines are good to go. The real sticklers are the Tzmisce, because Vicissitude really should be feared and would have too much of an effect on the Camarilla, and the Assamites, because of the reasons outlined in the OP. I'm actually rather annoyed that the CFers remain detached from the Camarilla, the Rationale for the Giovanni keeping apart from the Camarilla is just... bad, but it's nowhere near as bad as the Gangrel/Brujah leaving.

[Shakanaka]

After taking so many rules from Requiem already

That's one of my main contentions with V5 in the first place. Its trying hard to be like Requiem. I have nothing against people who like Requiem, but stuff from it really doesn't need to be hamfistedly sewn into VTM at all. Both games have different audiences that like different things. My like for oWoD over nWoD isn't even one of nostalgia either, since I only got into World of Darkness in general since 2017.

Even then, V5 only has taken game mechanics from Requiem so far, but we're mostly discussing metaplot/narrative aspects here. And ironically to begin with, V5 metaplot-wise is very divergent from Requiem; VTM has cut the list of possible Vampire Sects from 3 only to 2, while VTR has like 5+ covenants.

[archderd]

i agree that these changes has been poorly rationalized but that doesn't mean it's an inherently bad idea just a poorly executed one.

that being said the inclusion of both the assamites and the lasombra could've easily be explained to be part of the negotiations with the ashirra sect (given that they're both mayor clans within said sect) rather then being sabbat/ur-shulgi refugees. the ur-shulgi schism would make more sense as an explenation for why there are haqimites within the anarchs rather then the cam.

the brujah thing would make more sense if the cam was in some ways punishing the entire clan for theo's actions untill the situation got sorted and many brujah taking issue with being punished for some dickhead's actions they had nothing to do with because they're from the same clan rather then "my fav char said so and all the brujah think he's as awsome as i think he is" that we got.