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Clan changes in the Camarilla: Near objectively terrible ideas.

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  • Ragged Robin
    replied
    I mean the closest irl equivalent to the tremere collapse is the 3rd century crisis were roman imperial authority imploded, was balkanised suffered massive infrastructural damage and eventually gave way to more oppressive theocratic monarchy which was crippled by said crisis The sudden collapse of large centralised powers doesn't typically benefit its subject even if the system is oppressive. Theirs no real historical or in setting reason to presume the Tremere benefit from the collapse of the pyramid.

    Their is no equivalent were to the lasombras situation. Since no organization has ever decapitated itself then surrendered to their primary enemy then asked to be king. The closest I can think of is quisling or vichey governments in ww2.
    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-09-2021, 05:53 AM.

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  • MyWifeIsScary
    replied
    Thaumaturges are basically very attractive targets because it's very easy for lazy "practical" vampires to enslave or steal from hard working thaumaturges who are a prestation mine. Thus Thaumaturges have two choices

    A: Hide.
    B: Band together and pool resources in an organization powerful enough to warn off all enemies.

    The Assamites and settites are more A with a bit of B. The Tremere went nearly all-in on B, so weakening the pyramid is nothing but bad for them. Splitting into multiple houses denies them B but they're not gaining anymore A so... it's a dumb move unless you plan to breed like rabits or organize the schism so that it goes off in a clean and optimum manner.

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  • MarkK
    replied
    The Seven were the one overt weakness of the Tremere and made them easily attackable as we saw. It's also why Saulot/The White Worm/Kupala/Whatever was going to be able to destroy the Clan or take it over.
    As far as Saulot's noted plan, wacky though it was, he'd already got what he wanted out of the Tremere really. His presumed death for a good long while, eliminating most of his previous clan without looking like he did it, and Tremere's body for whatever reason. The Tremere clan themselves were something of a bonus to do further Jyhad moves through when not wrestling with Tremere for control of said body.

    And again, for all that the Seven were an attack point on the Tremere, they were also a focal point the clan's magic could be coalesced around, in some cases literally. That they'd managed to keep going just fine with the structure they had for nearly a thousand years speaks to that it wasn't that overt a weakness. The Second Inquisition rocked everyone in the vampiric world up down and all around the town, regardless of clan structure or sect structure (to the point that it feels like it makes no sense that vampires even still exist in VtM now, but that's a different discussion).

    Destroying Vienna's Chantry liberates the Clan from a central overt authority.
    We're going to do a life analogy again. So as noted, I hate my university. But I can acknowledge it has, in part through its resources and concentration of studies and ability to apply them, done important global work in the fields it focuses on. If tomorrow the entire campus burnt to the ground, its governing bodies all died, and its professors and researchers were scattered to the four winds, said staff would not in any way be able to perform on their own or in scattered groups like they are able to with the university to be part of.

    Sometimes a central overt authority is a good thing.

    While I'm there, the centralized strong unity of the Tremere is one of the things that kept them from being wiped out during the Dark Medieval despite how many groups got really keen on wanting to wipe out the Tremere (from the Order of Hermes to the Tzimisce to various chunks of Nosferatu and Gangrel)
    Last edited by MarkK; 09-08-2021, 11:20 AM.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    The Brujah Exile

    The Camarilla has always looked like a bunch of complete losers for their treatment of the Anarchs and essentially tolerating terrorists and revolutionaries within their ranks. The Anarchs are an existential threat to the Camarilla and have repeatedly shown themselves to be someone that will eventually destroy the Camarilla. Tolerating them because of the clause in the Convention of Thorns was a retcon designed to explain how the Camarilla could be so blindingly stupid.

    There have always been Brujah who weren't Anarchs, though. The Critiases and other people who think the Camarilla is the way to go. It makes sense for them to be a part of the Camarilla, However, the depiction of the majority of the Anarchs is that they are products of the Modern Era and do not want to go with the feudalism of the Old World. By the time the Camarilla was formed, they were already slowly starting to bring about the end of absolute monarchy and aristocracy.

    Essentially, the Camarilla has always been stuck with a Clan that is committed to the destruction of the very organization that it is supposedly a part of. The Camarilla for whatever reason was depicted as too weak to root out this disease or unwilling to do so, which makes them seem like they were fools. Some people even defined the Brujah as "loyal opposition" which makes the Anarchs look like fools because the opposition of the Brujah should be to hack the head off the Prince, not kiss the ring.

    Yes, both sides were willing to team up when the Sabbat came knocking but that was ever an alliance of conveinance.

    I think the Brujah being cast out because of Theo Bell's betrayal makes a lot more sense than Xavier's choice because it is the Inner Council greatly overreacting, the Inner Council offending the Brujah remaining, and also the Brujah getting an opportunity to form their own sect.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by MarkK View Post

    My problem with that is they've had a demonstrable power hit. One of the highest cards the Tremere could play in the Jyhad was their ability to bust out group ritual nonsense and to threaten that they could. It was pretty much their nuclear weapon as far as a "don't mess with that country past a point of no return, it has nuclear weapons" sort of deterrent to other clans. That sort of thing is really only viable for a strictly knit together clan with a strong hierarchy, which they no longer are.

    The other thing they've lost by fragmenting is the ability for magical knowledge to spread and be refined and researched across an entire clan's knowledge base. Fractious, at odds, and out of regular clan wide communication, they can no longer do that.

    Those are two really huge things to lose.
    But well worth it as a trade off.

    The Seven were the one overt weakness of the Tremere and made them easily attackable as we saw. It's also why Saulot/The White Worm/Kupala/Whatever was going to be able to destroy the Clan or take it over.

    Destroying Vienna's Chantry liberates the Clan from a central overt authority.

    Originally posted by archderd View Post
    same reason the lasombra joined the cam: bad writing
    Mind you, I have always felt that the Anarchs were hurt by the fact the Camarilla acted like they were an opposition party versus people who wanted to murder them. It made the Camarilla look stupid and the Anarchs look ineffectual.

    The Brujah were a big part of that.

    Now the Brujah don't look like the losers they did before and the Camarilla like morons for tolerating the Anarchs in their ranks.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-08-2021, 10:57 AM.

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  • MarkK
    replied
    and I have had that argument multiple times but I've always felt that the Tremere Pyramid of Power has been its biggest weakness. It is good for the Council of Seven but terrible for the Clan because it prevents it from expanding and keeps them all blood bound to the Seven. With the Council of Seven destroyed, the Tremere can now spread out among the sects and grow in different weird directions that they were previously all under the thumb of the Elders before.

    Less a Pyramid and more a spider-web.
    My problem with that is they've had a demonstrable power hit. One of the highest cards the Tremere could play in the Jyhad was their ability to bust out group ritual nonsense and to threaten that they could. It was pretty much their nuclear weapon as far as a "don't mess with that country past a point of no return, it has nuclear weapons" sort of deterrent to other clans. That sort of thing is really only viable for a strictly knit together clan with a strong hierarchy, which they no longer are.

    The other thing they've lost by fragmenting is the ability for magical knowledge to spread and be refined and researched across an entire clan's knowledge base. Fractious, at odds, and out of regular clan wide communication, they can no longer do that.

    Those are two really huge things to lose.

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  • archderd
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Well I think I've said all I can about the subject. Now for the REAL subject: WHY DID THE CAMARILLA KICK OUT THE BRUJAH!

    same reason the lasombra joined the cam: bad writing

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by MarkK View Post

    Okay, especially for this one after multiple posts noting content from Chicago by Night alone that doesn't agree with your take, you can replace the word Lasombra with Ventrue for the way you talk about the Lasombra clan and its unstoppable ultra competence and your posts are pretty much the mirror image of a different fellow's posts as far as interacting with the given book content.

    But all that aside?
    I mean, I choose the Lasombra over the Ventrue every single time. They're not as cool as the Tzimisce (Old Clan especially) but I admit to being a total Lasombra fanboy.

    No denial whatsoever I give the Lasombra victory over the Ventrue 9:10.

    Even then, I know they had to make this deal under bad circumstances. The Antediluvian is back, the Gehenna Crusade is going horribly (even if they're winning), and the Second Inquisition has their number.

    The idea that the Tremere, splintered across multiple houses and sects, no longer able to do things like full clan involved pyramid rituals that they once could, and having lost their major center of power are stronger for what happened to them is a really odd way to look at things.
    MyWifeIsScary and I have had that argument multiple times but I've always felt that the Tremere Pyramid of Power has been its biggest weakness. It is good for the Council of Seven but terrible for the Clan because it prevents it from expanding and keeps them all blood bound to the Seven. With the Council of Seven destroyed, the Tremere can now spread out among the sects and grow in different weird directions that they were previously all under the thumb of the Elders before.

    Less a Pyramid and more a spider-web.

    It's good for the Clan and much of the same reason why I feel the Lasombra benefit from this because the Clan is no longer limited to one sect.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-08-2021, 10:24 AM.

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  • AnubisXy
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
    Seriously, the Lasombra are going to emerge from this stronger rather than weaker because they're going to immediately slide into the Camarilla's power structure and start chowing down. Being among the most ruthless and dangerous clans in a time of uncertainty, they're going to thrive when everyone else is weak.
    Again, I have trouble believing that everyone in the Camarilla is just going to open all of the doors and let the Lasombra defectors waltz in and make themselves at home. It doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't keep a close eye on them for some time and generally keep them away from the levers of power until the Lasombra defectors have been able to prove that they really are defectors and that their loyalty really is to the Camarilla. And for vampires, "some time" would probably be decades or even a century.

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  • MarkK
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Congratulations, you are now Lasombra chow.

    It's not even close. You believed exactly what they wanted you to.



    Seriously, the Lasombra are going to emerge from this stronger rather than weaker because they're going to immediately slide into the Camarilla's power structure and start chowing down. Being among the most ruthless and dangerous clans in a time of uncertainty, they're going to thrive when everyone else is weak.

    Mind you, I assume you think the Lasombra are going to be taking the majority of damage here from their Civil War and I find that to be silly. The Lasombra don't have to kill THEIR Elders to defect and there's a bunch of Tzimisce and Antitribu to die for them as well. That's assuming that they automatically do as Kevin Jackson asks for other cities as we know they don't.

    Besides the Lasombra are no worse off than the Hecate, Tremere, and other clans that have taken a pretty hard knock. I've already stated that both of those also are stronger rather than weaker for what happened to them.
    Okay, especially for this one after multiple posts noting content from Chicago by Night alone that doesn't agree with your take, you can replace the word Lasombra with Ventrue for the way you talk about the Lasombra clan and its unstoppable ultra competence and your posts are pretty much the mirror image of a different fellow's posts as far as interacting with the given book content.

    But all that aside?

    The idea that the Tremere, splintered across multiple houses and sects, no longer able to do things like full clan involved pyramid rituals that they once could, and having lost their major center of power are stronger for what happened to them is a really odd way to look at things.

    The Hecata are only stronger in the sense that all the once hunted, hidden, or otherwise minor bloodlines that combined to form the Hecata have undergone a huge jump in power. The Giovanni, once a distinct clan of their own, have undergone a huge decrease in power, even by the simple fact of they now have to share and acknowledge it with a big ol pile of not the Giovanni. So that is some straight up "from a certain point of view" stuff.

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  • Damian May
    replied
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
    But this whole entire thread, we've already gone through why none of what is happening with the Lasombra makes no sense. Nothing about what the Lasombra is doing is planned.

    lol
    I'm getting flashes of the Black Knight from Monty Python at this point.

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Well I think I've said all I can about the subject. Now for the REAL subject: WHY DID THE CAMARILLA KICK OUT THE BRUJAH!


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  • archderd
    replied
    Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

    Whatever the case, I think it was the Lasombra making the best out of a bad situation.
    i think they're just badly writen

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  • CTPhipps
    replied
    Originally posted by Shakanaka View Post
    But this whole entire thread, we've already gone through why none of what is happening with the Lasombra makes no sense. Nothing about what the Lasombra is doing is planned.

    lol
    Except it was very much planned by the Amis Noctis and has worked out fine from what we've seen in the video games as well as the supplements from Onyx Path.

    Or do you mean in the Dolyeist sense?

    In which case, I'm glad the Lasombra are not just in the Sabbat because the Sabbat is routinely portrayed as a bunch of keystone cops who are rarely anything other than Orcs in the setting.

    Whatever the case, I think it was the Lasombra making the best out of a bad situation.
    Last edited by CTPhipps; 09-08-2021, 09:22 AM.

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  • Shakanaka
    replied
    But this whole entire thread, we've already gone through why none of what is happening with the Lasombra makes no sense. Nothing about what the Lasombra is doing is planned.

    lol

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