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What do vampires know ,if anything, about the Technocracy?

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  • What do vampires know ,if anything, about the Technocracy?

    So the Technocrats know a bit about vampires and have some information on their society and dealings etc. What do the vampires know about the Technocracy in return?

  • #2
    Most vampires don't know anything. A few might realize that there are other conspiracies in the world and might even realize there's a business conspiracy (Syndicate) or one in the media (New World Order) but they'd probably have no idea those conspiracies were all separate heads of a singular hydra. Only maybe older Tremere or vampires who used to be mages or themselves Technocrats are likely to have anything approaching a full understanding of the Technocracy.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by mezlabor View Post
      So the Technocrats know a bit about vampires and have some information on their society and dealings etc. What do the vampires know about the Technocracy in return?
      The Tremere know there's a society of Mages that used reason and science to hunt mages but they're probably thinking about the Order of Reason not the Union.

      SOMEONE nuked Ravnos but I suspect even the most informed vampires have no idea who that is.

      Vampires are easily the most ignorant supernatural other than Hunters and even that's questionable.


      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        I reckon the Tremere probably do decent book keeping and have someone somewhere keeping tabs and thus probably aren't more than 30 years out of date. The same may be true with the Nosferatu. However, having the books somewhere doesn't mean everyone bothers to read them or knows that they're even there (though I think it's really undersold how long vampires live for and how empty the latter part of their nights are, so I think it'd be a bit weird if a chantry/warren didn't have someone who read up on stuff like this for entertainment.)


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
        There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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        • #5
          It's one of my favorite things about the Ventrue that some within the clan canonically believe in a conspiracy theory that someone out there is pushing back against them and their influence on the world, but they have no idea who.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Reasor View Post
            It's one of my favorite things about the Ventrue that some within the clan canonically believe in a conspiracy theory that someone out there is pushing back against them and their influence on the world, but they have no idea who.
            This is interesting. I'm in a technocracy chronicle now where my syndicate media pop diva is in a business battle with a Ventrue over competing business interests.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by mezlabor View Post
              This is interesting. I'm in a technocracy chronicle now where my syndicate media pop diva is in a business battle with a Ventrue over competing business interests.
              The original Ventrue clanbook has a concept called the "Secret Masters". The Secret Masters are supposed to be a secret coterie of incredible beings who manipulate everything behind the scenes to rule the world. The Ventrue work against them to keep the world free. It's a very high level Jyhad style concept. The Secret Masters are a disparate group. The Antedeluvians are supposed to be part of this, but it predates them (remember that the Ventrue antedeluvian is supposed to be dead and is not among their number, it's likely the Ventrue believe the Secret Masters are responsible for this destruction). The Incarna spirits, archmages, mummies, and any other powerful beings are included in their numbers.

              Basically anyone who opposes the Ventrue for reasons unknown to them are probably labelled as pawns of the Secret Masters. This includes the lupines, mages, Inquisition, Sabbat, and others. The Masters themselves are powerful supernatural forces. It's likely the concept and make up of them have changed over the millennia. Originally, they were probably powerful Incarna/Aeon level spirits, and the Ventrue added more of them over the years including very physical beings as part of the conspiracy.

              The name "Secret Masters" dates only to the 1700s, but before that they used many other names. This is likely a very, very, old concept among the concept because they trace it back to Caine informing Ventrue of their existence. As Reasor stated, "some" Ventrue believe it. So the numbers of the Ventrue who buy into the concept, and what an individual Ventrue believes is true about them is all over the place. It's something an ST will need to define in her own chronicles.

              It's a combination of occult lore, bonkers conspiracy theory, misunderstood reality, and paranoid fantasy. It's never developed in any other sourcebook to my knowledge, so it is easily overlooked. It's very much a concept that is left to STs to develop it as they see fit. Just want it to be lunatic ravings? Then the Secret Masters don't exist. Want it to be a combination of real forces which don't actually work together as the Ventrue conceive? That works too. Want an actual group or groups of beings that actually fit the concept? Then it exists at least in some kind of format.

              Interestingly, the Technocracy is likely NOT considered to be members of the Secret Masters, who seem to have a distinct umbral nature. The first Venture clanbook explicitly states that while mages are manipulated by the Secret Masters that those who deal with science "remain free" of them. In that sense, the Ventrue would like view the Technocracy as uneasy allies against the Secret Masters. This does not mean the Technocracy is seen as trustworthy or friendly. Just that they - like the Ventrue - are one of the few groups free of their influence.

              The original Ventrue clanbook was written by Andrew Greenberg at the very beginning of Rob Hatch's run as Vampire 2e developer. And it fits some of the more gonzo crossover stuff that defined Greenberg's earlier run as Vampire developer. As such, it's not surprising the concept never gets mentioned again as the Vampire game toned down anything associated with the Umbra, the other game lines, and restricted the game's themes to sect conflicts between vampires themselves.

              At the time I first read the Ventrue clanbook, I admit I scratched my head a lot after reading about it. However, I've grown to like the concept and have worked to develop ways I can meaningfully incorporate it into my chronicles both as an element within the clan, and as something that viably intersects with the wider game.

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              • #8
                There's probably more than a few "friend of a friend" stories among vampires about Men in Black (as in the subjects of traditional UFO and/or conspiracy folklore), conspiracies of the living wealthy elite, and the like. Probably most consider them some sort of modern government version of the Society of Leopold/Inquisition from the old days. (And if you use the Second Inquisition, then there is such a thing.) Some, especially older or more well read Tremere, may think they could be descendants of forces the Order encountered before they became vampires. But an organization of reality manipulating wizards pretending to be scientists is likely to be considered too much to believe.
                Such is my take, at least.


                What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by mezlabor View Post
                  So the Technocrats know a bit about vampires and have some information on their society and dealings etc. What do the vampires know about the Technocracy in return?
                  That depends a lot.

                  First of all, the idea that the World of Darkness™ is a cohesive setting simply isn't true. There was a lot of back and forth in this arena through the years, but ultimately each line is its own thing, give or take a few references and the odd crossover book, and whatever is true for one have no bearing on the other.

                  What it means for this question is that a) they avoid talking about other Denizens at length in any particular line and b) the perception on the matter varies a lot between readers as we all have to read in the subtext, and dominion over each line affects the outcome.

                  So we can't say for sure what to expect from your ST, even if you say your ST knows a lot of everything and is very consistent and orthodox.

                  But my personal take on the matter would be:

                  - The Nosferatu have the Shrecknet, the single most protected computer network in the setting. Depending on your understanding of some official material, it already withstood Awakened hackers more than once, including the Virtual Adepts. It would be hard for them to be completely unaware of the nature of whatever tried to get to them;
                  - Still with the Nos, they are information dealers and have contacts far and wide. Obfuscate is also a pesky Discipline to get through, not so much because it is hard to but because it is extremely counter-intuitive in the way it works, so few Mages would even try a working spell to see them. Nos hackers are likely among the people the VAs talk with and consider a part of their circles in the internet;
                  - The Tremere used to be a Hermetic House, and several of their elders are still from that time. Indeed, even as vampires they stayed within the Order of Hermes for 200 years, leaving only in the beginning of the 13th century. They are extremely likely to still keep an eye on what's happening among the Mages, in the very least to avoid the OoH persecution in name of the still standing Massassa War;
                  - It is also probable that from time to time a neonate is Embraced among Mages wanting immortality that badly or non-awakened associated with the Traditions, and then get fresh news on what's happening;
                  - The Followers of Set had a long history with Mages in the past and are dealers of everything and anything in the present. This past information is important to them, and the present situation means that they are likely to come across absolutely any supernatural group with interesting offers, specially considering that, despite their tendency to seduce you to ever darker paths, the deals themselves are as good as they say;
                  - Vampires are master conspirators entrenched in mortal institutions and with time on their sides. Not that the Union isn't, but where the Union have a broad scope the vampires have deep roots. It would be hard to never pass through their webs, even if left alone, and never be detected;
                  - Age is also a huge boon. Even if a given vampire is new to the night, they're never too far from someone with at least a few centuries. More time to take on clues, more time to see strange things, more time to investigate, more time to spread influence and prepare, and usually a very good memory. With those guys the problem is that no matter what you think the game is, they've been playing this match before you were even born;
                  - Disciplines aren't nearly as flexible as Magick by any stretch of the imagination, but they are potent and useful. Auspex 2 is enough to identify Mages on sight, easy to pull out and is a very common Discipline, almost half the Camarilla have it as in-clan. Dominate can control and read minds. And despite the lack of finesse, Presence is hugely potent on what it tries to do. Auspex may well be the single best information gathering effect in the entire WoD and the other two are no pushovers when it comes to making someone spill the beans;
                  - Mages can be Ghouls, and some do this on purpose. Others are tricked into it. Some may come to it by accident (in the sense that the vampire didn't expected to get a Mage). Either way this puts a Mage directly under a vampire's influence, and them it is a matter of time before the vampire learn about the Mage and their society. Techies are just as likely to end up like this, and some appreciate the perks;
                  - Finally, many vampires have mystic tendencies that would naturally drive them to the same places that Mages frequent. It isn't impossible that some gathering either of Traditions or Conventions have vampires in their midst, or at least a Ghoul. It isn't impossible that some long distance partners in whatever project a Mage or Techie have is a vampire. And while it may be rare, stretched through time it compounds.

                  I'd say the chance of vampires being aware of the Technocracy are pretty high, at least to the same degree the Technocracy is aware of them. And individual vampires may know a pretty high amount of details on top of that. But it all ultimately depends on individuals and, more importantly, on your ST's views and plans.

                  Maybe this Toreador had a fairly important hand in putting you where you are today.


                  #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
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                  She/her pronouns

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                  • #10
                    My take on the subject is that every line is canon to the World of Darkness but only to an extent.

                    After all, there's vampires, werewolves, and mages oh my in every line and they all do have an affect on each other.

                    But nothing is 100% true.


                    Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post
                      My take on the subject is that every line is canon to the World of Darkness but only to an extent.

                      After all, there's vampires, werewolves, and mages oh my in every line and they all do have an affect on each other.

                      But nothing is 100% true.
                      My personal preference as usually been to pick which game is taking primary prominence (am I playing a Vampire game which involves mages or an I playing a Mage came which involves vampires, for example) and work from there, with the game I'm using taking precedence and anything from the other game being yes, no, or maybe as needed. (I have some vague recollection of someone from WWGS once telling me this was how the developers tended to approach their own game lines, at least during the late 2nd ed and revised periods.) Trying to do a game in which you are using two (or more) games, with their backstories, cosmologies and factions, at the same time is a lot more of a juggling act, but its certainly doable if you are willing to put in the effort. And part of that involves deciding which aspects of which game are true (or at least truer than the other). So if Vampire+Mage, then you have to decide just how powerful the Technocracy is, how much influence they wield, and how much of an interest do they take in the Kindred, as well as just how aware the Kindred are of them (elders, ancilla, and neonates likely having much different levels of awareness).

                      In perfect hindsight, I kind of wish each game line had included an Antagonists sourcebook which included a chapter about other supernaturals (Vampire, for example, having one that had chapters about mortal threats, vampire threats, and then supernaturals such as lupines, demons, ghosts, etc. as the appear in Vampire and work in its cosmology/world view) and then specific crossover books for each line that talked about how and why those two groups might meet/clash, issues with rules or cosmology that are likely to come up and ways to handle them, and what each group is doing in the other's signature city (the Vampire/Werewolf one talking about ghoul or embraced werewolves, vampires astrally projecting into the Umbra, what ties if any the Beast has with the Wyrm, what information - and misinformation - each group has about the other, what werewolves are doing in Chicago, etc.).


                      What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                      Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Black Fox View Post

                        The original Ventrue clanbook has a concept called the "Secret Masters". The Secret Masters are supposed to be a secret coterie of incredible beings who manipulate everything behind the scenes to rule the world. The Ventrue work against them to keep the world free. It's a very high level Jyhad style concept. The Secret Masters are a disparate group. The Antedeluvians are supposed to be part of this, but it predates them (remember that the Ventrue antedeluvian is supposed to be dead and is not among their number, it's likely the Ventrue believe the Secret Masters are responsible for this destruction). The Incarna spirits, archmages, mummies, and any other powerful beings are included in their numbers.

                        Basically anyone who opposes the Ventrue for reasons unknown to them are probably labelled as pawns of the Secret Masters. This includes the lupines, mages, Inquisition, Sabbat, and others. The Masters themselves are powerful supernatural forces. It's likely the concept and make up of them have changed over the millennia. Originally, they were probably powerful Incarna/Aeon level spirits, and the Ventrue added more of them over the years including very physical beings as part of the conspiracy.

                        The name "Secret Masters" dates only to the 1700s, but before that they used many other names. This is likely a very, very, old concept among the concept because they trace it back to Caine informing Ventrue of their existence. As Reasor stated, "some" Ventrue believe it. So the numbers of the Ventrue who buy into the concept, and what an individual Ventrue believes is true about them is all over the place. It's something an ST will need to define in her own chronicles.

                        It's a combination of occult lore, bonkers conspiracy theory, misunderstood reality, and paranoid fantasy. It's never developed in any other sourcebook to my knowledge, so it is easily overlooked. It's very much a concept that is left to STs to develop it as they see fit. Just want it to be lunatic ravings? Then the Secret Masters don't exist. Want it to be a combination of real forces which don't actually work together as the Ventrue conceive? That works too. Want an actual group or groups of beings that actually fit the concept? Then it exists at least in some kind of format.

                        Interestingly, the Technocracy is likely NOT considered to be members of the Secret Masters, who seem to have a distinct umbral nature. The first Venture clanbook explicitly states that while mages are manipulated by the Secret Masters that those who deal with science "remain free" of them. In that sense, the Ventrue would like view the Technocracy as uneasy allies against the Secret Masters. This does not mean the Technocracy is seen as trustworthy or friendly. Just that they - like the Ventrue - are one of the few groups free of their influence.

                        The original Ventrue clanbook was written by Andrew Greenberg at the very beginning of Rob Hatch's run as Vampire 2e developer. And it fits some of the more gonzo crossover stuff that defined Greenberg's earlier run as Vampire developer. As such, it's not surprising the concept never gets mentioned again as the Vampire game toned down anything associated with the Umbra, the other game lines, and restricted the game's themes to sect conflicts between vampires themselves.

                        At the time I first read the Ventrue clanbook, I admit I scratched my head a lot after reading about it. However, I've grown to like the concept and have worked to develop ways I can meaningfully incorporate it into my chronicles both as an element within the clan, and as something that viably intersects with the wider game.
                        Question about the Ventrue: who are the Directorate? My… understanding is that they are the ruling council of Clan Ventrue, but I’m not 100% sure about this.

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                        • #13
                          It's a little vague, but in general the Directorate is the clan leadership of the Ventrue. The Directorate are the elders of the Ventrue clan who meet to direct the clan's efforts. While every city has a "Board" of the Ventrue who reside there, there are Directorates that cover a greater geographical area. Thus you could take it to mean the leadership of the Ventrue within a particular city, a particular region, or the clan as a whole. I think it is currently in London where the clan meets for its overall leadership meetings. The local boards meet every first Tuesday of the month, but the greater directorates meet less frequently.

                          It was originally mentioned in the Players Guide and later developed in the clanbooks. As such, details may vary between editions.

                          The Ventrue generally decide things in a collective manner, a legacy of when the Ventrue antedeluvian was killed and its childer were forced to organized together for mutual protection at a time when the other antedeluvians were active. The exact name and format of these governing bodies are subject to change throughout history, but essentially serve the same purpose. While all Ventrue can attend and speak their mind, like everything in Vampire its the elders who truly decide things. Yet the Ventrue probably balance the ambitions of its younger members and the privileges of its elders better than most.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Black Fox View Post
                            It's a little vague, but in general the Directorate is the clan leadership of the Ventrue. The Directorate are the elders of the Ventrue clan who meet to direct the clan's efforts. While every city has a "Board" of the Ventrue who reside there, there are Directorates that cover a greater geographical area. Thus you could take it to mean the leadership of the Ventrue within a particular city, a particular region, or the clan as a whole. I think it is currently in London where the clan meets for its overall leadership meetings. The local boards meet every first Tuesday of the month, but the greater directorates meet less frequently.

                            It was originally mentioned in the Players Guide and later developed in the clanbooks. As such, details may vary between editions.

                            The Ventrue generally decide things in a collective manner, a legacy of when the Ventrue antedeluvian was killed and its childer were forced to organized together for mutual protection at a time when the other antedeluvians were active. The exact name and format of these governing bodies are subject to change throughout history, but essentially serve the same purpose. While all Ventrue can attend and speak their mind, like everything in Vampire its the elders who truly decide things. Yet the Ventrue probably balance the ambitions of its younger members and the privileges of its elders better than most.
                            Thank you.

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                            • #15
                              I'm generally anti-crossover, but assuming a crossover-positive universe...

                              Vampires -- at least, the occultists -- know about mages. They may not know the full extent of mages' power, but they are aware mortals can and do learn some form of sorcery. And following from that, naturally, mages seem to have their own societies and version of the Masquerade. The exceedingly well-learned may be aware of a sectarian divide among mages, comparable to the Camarilla and Sabbat...and the mages' version of the Camarilla is known as the Technocracy.

                              Other than that, it's all going to be hearsay and telephone game-style vampiric urban legend.

                              Maybe a strange mortal in a black suit showed up in Elysium, and was ushered into a back room with the Prince immediately...and not a word was said in polite company since. Maybe the Sabbat raided a chantry, thinking it was full of Tremere, only to be repelled with extreme prejudice by mortals wielding fire and lightning, with the scant survivors telling unbelievable tales of what they saw. Maybe an unfortunate lick tried feeding on a strange mortal, only to discover they had no blood at all but instead only bit down on a skeleton made of metal. Maybe the Tzimisce bishop whose hatred of mortals, and the depravities it inflicts upon them with great relish, is known throughout the sect...and then one night out of nowhere, they clear their entire evening schedule just to have tea with one mortal in particular.
                              Last edited by Theodrim; 09-16-2021, 09:08 PM.

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