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Clan Disciplines: What are your personal changes, if any?

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  • Clan Disciplines: What are your personal changes, if any?

    My personal example would be me gutting the Ravnos (I’ve always found them bland, even when they tried their best to fix them) and replacing the Brujah’s Celerity with Chimerstry. This is one part inspired by The Lost Boys but one part made because it gave the Brujah yet another tool to assert their will and utopia on reality as a whole. They have Presence to sway the emotions of both Kindred and Kine. They can smash and rip others apart with Potence. And with Chimerstry, they hold the reins to other people’s perception.

  • #2
    Gargoyles have Fortitude, Potence, and their own unique version of Protean, which replaces the third, fourth and fifth dot powers with being able to meld with buildings, growing working wings, and becoming a sun proof statue.

    Malkavians have their original Disciplines of Auspex, Dominate and Obfuscate, with most of the Dementation effects being combination/alloy powers of those three.



    What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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    • #3
      Malkavian: Auspex, Dominate, and Obfuscate

      Tzimisce: Animalism, Dominate, and Protean




      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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      • #4
        While I haven't made any alterations I have on occasion considered splitting Oblivion up into two disciplines.

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        • #5
          Most of what i have done is streamlining by cutting the signature disciplines and making them into devotions, variant powers or, in some specific instances, occult rituals in the vein of those used by Garou (or some Sabbat and lone kindred exposed to less well known esoteric practices). Unfinished, among other things, because i keep tweaking things here and there depending on what i feel like using as a clue or easter egg to some chronicle-specific lore change and so on.

          Malkavian: Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate (Dementation is acessed through a background/merit called "enlightened madness")

          Tremere: Auspex, Fortitude, Dominate (got tired of the whole clan being defined/typecast by Thaumaturgy. Not every clan member starts with it, learning requires at least some level of commitment & trust by the right - or very wrong - people, represented by dots of Clan Prestige or Mentor. Blood Sorcery is its own thing and nobody's discipline).

          Assamite: Celerity, Obfuscate and ????. Subsumed Quietus into Blood Sorcery, still undecided over which discipline to insert in its place.

          Followers of Set: Obfuscate, Presence, Protean.Setite's Protean 5 is Form of Dust/Sand. The heart extraction power is a ritual instead.

          Giovanni: Dominate, Potence, Presence. Necromancy might be either its own thing or more Blood Sorcery paths depending on my mood, but what goes for Tremere and Assamites with Blood Sorcery also applies here, you need to be converted/initiated into one of the clan's many cabals to get access to it. Inserting Presence in its was something of a little wink to the Giovanni standing somewhere between Ventrue & Lasombra.

          Ravnos: Animalism, Fortitude, Obfuscate. Chimerstry is simply an "alternate path" of Obfuscate.

          Lasombra: Dominate, Obfuscate, Potence. Shadowplay on itself is a group of alternate powers for Obfuscate. Arms of Ahriman and any other solid shadow/portal/etc weirdness i gatelocked into rituals from either the Amici Noctis, the Angellis Ater or other secret societies within the clan.

          Tzimisce: Animalism, Auspex, Protean. Zulo Form replaces one of the animal forms (in my own games the wolf form is closer to Garou's Hispo than normal wolf, so it kind of balances out, flight form can already become a "chiropteran marauder lite" in that it may turn into a man-sized bat thing instead of common bat). Fleshcrafts i made into a form of ritual occult art, what in retrospect makes a bunch of sense, imho.


          Extras:
          Baali: Baali in my games are a melange of Caitiff broods spawned/tainted by lingering Blood Bond ties to the cthonic will of dead Antediluvians turned wraith/spectre better known in the Underworld as Malfeans/Neverborn. Daimonon is not related to the demons of hell, but the powers of spectres & Oblivion (also partly the reason some kindred are extra paranoid about the clanless).

          True Brujah: Temporis is "just" a extensive set of Auspex+Celerity devotions. In my own twisted setting the True Brujah are simply those among the Toreador that did not forget and mangle their ancient origins (far from the only ones, might be said. Almost all clans are mistaken or deluded in their belief the Antediluvians belong to any one clan in particular).
          Last edited by Baaldam; 09-18-2021, 02:26 AM.

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          • #6
            Temporis is just Celerity for narcisists (I'm not speeding myself up, I'm slowing the universe down!!!)

            Most of Mytherceria is an auspex Variation. anyone with access to changeling blood can learn it. Kiasyd thus have Auspex, Dominate and Obtenebration. Some of mytherceria is thrown into thaumaturgy/necromancy.

            Serpentis, thanatosis and visceraticka are all protean mutations, but they keep their distinct names and No Follower of Set will ever recognize they have the same discipline as the Gangrel. The Protean bloodlines can buy eachother's powers without conflict at in-clan rates, kinda like how elder disciplines work. They may be themed very differently, particularly with the FoS: a settite will likely turn to sand rather than ash with their thanatosis 3, Anyone learning serpentis powers without being apart of the FoS cult will likely avoid the snake thele in favour of other beasts


            Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
            There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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            • #7
              I allow multiple powers to be learned at each Discipline level in my games. Similar to how V5 did it, but characters aren't restricted to just one power per level. Consequently, this has allowed me to excise all of the "snowflake" or clan-unique Disciplines and fold them into "mainstream" Disciplines. I've likewise turned lot of the more underwhelming elder powers into 1-5 dot powers.

              Discipline powers are divided into three categories: Common, Uncommon, and Rare.
              • Common powers can be learned without a teacher's instruction.
              • Uncommon powers require a teacher and include the likes of Chimerstry, Vicissitude, etc. A Gangrel with Protean can't spontaneously develop fleshcrafting powers. I've come up with a wide variety of Common and Uncommon powers, so the Ravnos and Tzimisce don't actually have "more" powers available to them.
              • Rare powers not only require a teacher, but are especially obscure and/or jealously guarded. Valeren/Obeah, for example, are rare Fortitude/Presence powers. While most any Tzimisce who wants to learn Fleshcraft can pick it up from a clanmate, and even non-clanmates who know a Tzimisce could potentially do so in return for favors owed, most vampires who want to learn Valeren/Obeah powers are out of luck.


              So with that in mind, I revised Discipline spreads as follows:

              Assamite: Blood Sorcery (Dur-An-Ki), Celerity, Obfuscate. Castes are a social rather than "biological" distinction and have the same Disciplines.

              Cappadocian: Auspex, Blood Sorcery (Necromancy), Fortitude

              Giovanni: Blood Sorcery (Necromancy), Dominate, Potence

              Lasombra: Blood Sorcery (Obtenebration), Dominate, Potence. Lasombra who pick up powers/rituals beyond the "standard" Obtenebration ones are considered Abyss mystics.

              Malkavian: Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate. Dementation powers are Dominate powers.

              Ravnos: Animalism, Fortitude, Obfuscate. Chimerstry powers are Obfuscate powers.

              Salubri: Auspex, Fortitude, Presence. Valeren/Obeah powers are Fortitude and Presence powers. Castes are a social rather than "biological" distinction and have the same Disciplines.

              Setite: Obfuscate, Presence, Protean. Serpentis powers are Protean powers.

              Tzimisce: Animalism, Auspex, Protean. Vicissitude powers are Protean powers.


              Blood and Bourbon, my New Orleans-based Vampire chronicle.

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              • #8
                The main alterations I made were;

                First, Dominate Malks are default (Dementation is just a weird Dominate/Auspex hybrid and the Malks already have Auspex).

                Second, changed Quietus and Vicissitude into blood magic paths and associated rituals (all those powers happen to already cost 1+BP to activate) and then made the Assamite spread Blood Sorcery (Dur-An-Ki), Celerity, Obfuscate and the Tzimisce spread Animalism, Auspex and Blood Sorcery (Koldunism).

                All the differences in castes and bloodlines within those clans then became totally cultural and path choices (the Old Clan’s perferred first path is Corruption as it’s basically “Dominate as used by an asshole” though many also pick up Dominate cross-clan; it’s a common discipline so not hard to find even just among other Tzimisce).

                The Wan-Kuei are also traditional vampires, but are a Sect, not a Clan; after the Flood, c. 14k years ago a forgotten Antediluvian traveled East and established his own brood. His Methuselahs became known as the Yama Kings and their clan came to be called the Akuma; their clan disciplines are Auspex (to identify wicked souls), Obfuscate (to move unseen) and Blood Sorcery (known as the Chi, Shintai, Soul and Demon Arts). Their clan weakness is a particularly clever and malicious Beast (basically the Po aspect) who takes control in a Frenzy. It is they who seek out wicked souls on the verge of death and feed them some of their blood as punishment for their sins in life; leaving them to wake starving an under influence of their Beasts and, since they were already low Humanity types in life, often leaves them as wights once the horror of what they do during that first Frenzy strikes.

                The Wan-Kuei is a Sect of survivors of this treatment who banded together and adopted their Dharmas (basically Paths of Enlightenment) to better resist their Beast. It is not that they cannot Embrace, it is like the Children of Osiris who choose not to. The Dharmas are not only the foundations of what their western cousins call Golconda (which allows one to surpass generational limit), but also the only known method that can pull a vampire out of wightdom (though only by adopting the path... not by returning to Humanity).

                Basically this gives a lot of the past flavor of Kindred of the East, but recontextualizes it into traditional Kindred lore so they’re akin to the Laibon and Drowned Legacies rather than an entirely different type of supernatural entity.

                The final one is that the Baali became more like the Children of Osiris where most Baali are converts and Daimonion gets added on top of the previous clan’s disciplines in exchange for the extra weakness to holy things. It makes their infiltration game easier (Tremere is no longer the only option for hiding their association) and provides a lot more flexibility in terms of villains (which to date is the only way I’ve allowed them to be used in my campaigns.

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                • #9
                  I'm no good with power tinkering, but I've always thought it would be cool that Temporis was a Necromancy path, or that the True Brujah had Necromancy as a Discipline.

                  Historians and philosophers with no moral qualms, studying the decay of civilizations, and retrieving long-lost artifacts from the Underworld ... or accelerating the inevitable fall and destruction of things.

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                  • #10
                    3rd/20th

                    Samedi-I replaced Thanatosis with Necromancy since it's hands down the worst discipline, primary path is graves decay with bone and ash paths as auxiliaries
                    Tremere- Path of blood must be taken as primary path unless you have a really good reason. i don't mind you having some obscure op path but I expect you to work for it.

                    V5
                    Oblivion re separated Necromancy and Obtenerbration as it serves no real benefit in game and creates too many issues with fluff. Removed the oblivion stain rules since they're not very good discipline as it is and the idea of certain disciplines being 'toxic/evil' then others is really dumb because they're all messed up when you think it.
                    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-18-2021, 04:54 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Chris24601 View Post
                      The main alterations I made were;

                      The Wan-Kuei are also traditional vampires....
                      I really like a lot of what you've done here. I don't think i'd use it as you've written, but it is certainly good inspiration. The main issue (other than thinking the Hungry Ghosts as a pretty cool seperate splat) is that a lot of this stuff sounds too-great and you just have to ask yourself why wouldn't everything here easily spread outside of Asia.


                      I actually use my Baali as just another bloodline. The idea that there's a Nephandi equivolent among vampires who need to consent to be embraced with an inherently evil discipline... just sounds wrong. Vampire isn't about heroes, it's about people with power abusing it. A fallen mage works. A fallen werewolf works. A fallen vampire? That's just standard. For me, Diaomonion works best if it's about as evil as Dominate; it isn't inherently, but you can abuse the hell out of it. Baali aren't evil because of blood, but they do walk a bit too close to the fire when it comes to demons, and when you derive a clan culture from that... you can imagine how things go bad. It's more interesting for me to watch things fall apart than to draw lines in the sand.


                      Main topic: I don't think OCT should be Aus,Ani,Dom . It's a cool spread, but the Tzmisce are too disunified for Dominate to be standard. Fortitude or Potence would work best. In fact if there must be Vicissitude opponents among the Tzmisce, I think it'd be a good idea to give them a variety of replacements, to better suit the fact that Vicissitude is great and the Old Clan shouldn't really have legitimate claims to actually being "old"(er)
                      The Bloodline with Ogham? I make Ogham Koldunic sorcery. I think they make more sense as a Tzmisce relative than a Gangrel one.


                      Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
                      There's more coming soon. Pay what ya want.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Baaldam View Post

                        Assamite: Celerity, Obfuscate and ????. Subsumed Quietus into Blood Sorcery, still undecided over which discipline to insert in its place.
                        Auspex, perhaps? (as it ties in with the two non-warrior caste niches)


                        What is tolerance? It is the consequence of humanity. We are all formed of frailty and error; let us pardon reciprocally each other's folly. That is the first law of nature.
                        Voltaire, "Tolerance" (1764)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by MyWifeIsScary View Post
                          I really like a lot of what you've done here. I don't think i'd use it as you've written, but it is certainly good inspiration. The main issue (other than thinking the Hungry Ghosts as a pretty cool seperate splat) is that a lot of this stuff sounds too-great and you just have to ask yourself why wouldn't everything here easily spread outside of Asia.
                          Well, it’s one part cultural; once you call a place home for 10+ millennia you don’t travel much.

                          Another part is their Beasts are not mindless savages, but cunning serial killers and schemers and the majority of their low generations (the Yama Kings and Akuma) are absolutely lost to their Beasts. The only ones with control over their Beasts are the Wan-Kuei sect and part of their Dharmic path is to not Embrace others (its a 1 on the Path Sins for the Dharmas and I use the DAV method of the degeneration check being diff. 6+difference between current path rating and the sin).

                          When everything lower than 7-8th Gen is basically a wight with good manners; and your non-wights are all Gen 8-13 who refuse to ghoul or embrace, that’ll put a limit on how fast and far they can grow.

                          At least that’s how I do it.

                          I actually use my Baali as just another bloodline.
                          My preferences for the Baali come from my first exposure to them being Shaitan in the Chaos Factor. I don’t like all the myriad attempts to try and make the Baali playable (i.e. “they’re only committing atrocities to keep even worse things from happening.”). Mine exist entirely to try and release eldritch horrors to sink the world into sin and are prime example that no matter how wicked vampires think they are, there is always something that says “hold my beer.”

                          When a city even suspects a Baali is in town it’s thinblood sacrifice! Camarilla and Sabbat living together! Mass hysteria! Break out the unlicensed nuclear accelerators time.

                          It’s nice to have a level of “Big Bad” between your run of the mill corrupt Elder and the blood god Antediluvians. Baali work really well for that.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by False Epiphany View Post
                            Lasombra: Blood Sorcery (Obtenebration), Dominate, Potence. Lasombra who pick up powers/rituals beyond the "standard" Obtenebration ones are considered Abyss mystics.
                            Funny enough, one thing I did for my Transylvania Chronicles game (other than a large-scale overhaul of how blood sorcery works) is similar. Lasombra learn Obtenebration by default, but with additional training, going on a relevant path, and re-attenuating, they "upgrade" Obtenebration into Abyss Mysticism and can learn relevant secondary paths and rituals without having to buy a completely separate discipline. One of the first, indicative, examples of how this impacts the disciplines altogether is I removed Shadowstep as an elder-level power altogether, and resolve Shadowstep as Path of Praapti.

                            It allows Shadowstep at levels 1-5 but with caveats, and negates those ridiculous and horribly overpowered synergies between Shadowstep, Shadow Perspective, Darksight, and Shadow Lair. Even for elder powers, it's ridiculous the right combination of powers level 6 and 7 can replicate and exceed a published level 9 power.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by No One of Consequence View Post

                              Auspex, perhaps? (as it ties in with the two non-warrior caste niches)

                              Indeed. The fact it would subsume them as simply archetypes, factions & fraternities within the bedrock of the clan instead of separate bloodlines does appeal to me too.

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