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  • #91
    Originally posted by Ragged Robin View Post
    must....not...talk shit about 5th ed.....Ravenloft......
    What are you talking about? Except by that cute boardgame from 4th edition there's no new Ravenloft book since 3.5...

    Joking, I really didn't read it yet to have an informed opinion, as much as I trust yours.


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    • #92
      Originally posted by SuperSabbatST View Post
      If we are using the same exact qualifiers for what constitutes a book for both v20 and v5. Those numbers are wrong. V20 would be at 15 and V5 would be 11 (currently, with Sabbat and Second Inquisition that brings that number to 13)

      V20: Vampire the Masquerade 20th anniversary ,Dust to Dust, V20 Companion, Children of the Revolution, Hunters Hunted 2, Anarchs Unbound, Rites of the Blood, Dread Name, Red List, Lore of the Clans, The Black Hand: A Guide to the Tal’Mahe’Ra, Ghouls and Revenants, V20 Ready Made Characters ,V20 Starter Kit, Lore of the Bloodlines, Beckett’s Jyhad Diary

      V5: Vampire the Masquerade 5th Edition, New Blood Starter Pack, VtM Quickstart, Camarilla Sourcebook, Anarch Sourcebook, Fall of London, Chicago by Night, Let the Streets Run Red, Vampire the Masquerade Companion, Cults of the Blood Gods, Children of the Blood

      I would also say v20 had far more in page count and content that's useable compared to what currently exists for V5. Also V20 was exclusively published by Onyx Path. V5 has had multiple partenrs and publishers. So..context is kinda important when comparing the two editions.
      Another factor in those numbers; in the same span Onyx Path also released DAV20, Werewolf20 and all its supplements, Mage20 and it’s supplements, Wraith20 and Changeling20… all of which are at least marginally compatible with V20.

      We’re still waiting on W5 and, at the rate we’re going, 2025 for M5 looks deliriously optimistic.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

        I honestly don't think it exists outside of a handful of forums. V5 won Origins and is used on Twitch, Youtube, and plenty of other locations. Its important to some gamers but probably insignificant to the overall player base.
        I don't know much about musical theory, I can't articulate a long essay on why I prefer X song to Y song, and I'm not particularly interested in doing that, I only vaguely have an idea of what a time signature is and that there's something called an octave, but I do know I like X song more than Y song. Just because I don't talk about it doesn't mean that I can't recognize a vastly better product. Music, like literature, has a lot of subjectivity to it, there's a lot of reasons why people can like or dislike the band Tool, There's no reason to like the tone-deaf mashups my spendthrift dorm mate made, or my sister's singing (not even ironically) V5 is much more like the rich kid with a synthesizer he barely knows how to use than the Tool of V20, and for some people that goes without saying. Nobody has tried to get my sister in on their band.


        Look if Metaplot really drives sales then fine, just don't do it in a way that shits on my game. Every metaplot change in V5 does exactly that, it shits on my game.


        Throw me/White wolf some money with Quietus: Drug Lord, Poison King
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        • #94
          The metaplot is certainly a very important part of VTM, but I don't think that this means that we can't have one or more core rule books and suplemant books that advance the meta plot. V5 feels like a mess when trying to navigate the books.

          The metaplot of VTM was never really good, if you went in depth analysing it. I think that a lot of plotpoints V5 introduces are actually quite smart and more in line how institutions of power work. The thing V5 botches though, is giving an explaination why those events happen. Brujah leaves the Camarilla for example is in my opinion a good plot point. But the way to this plot point over Theo Bell made no sense imo. The Pyramid falling and Tremere fracturing is also a good plot point, but the raid on Vienna again makes no sense from the informations we have. I also really like Sabbat imploding, because their ideologies are not sustainable for a society. But the way to get there was way too abrupt. Lasombra trying to get to the Camarilla and the Camarilla requiring them to slaughter their former peers? Sounds great, but there is no information that the Lasombra as a group are banding together to do that and requiring the members to do that individually is again strange. The clans of death uniting to not being swept aside by the other clans? Great. But again, there is no build up for that except an awkward get together.

          And this leads me to my next complaint: For the large amount of pages V5 has already, there are actually very little hard facts and the ones we got are usually very surface level. Even Cults of the Blood Gods, which is certainly a step in the right direction, seems to gloss over a lot of important stuff. I kind of expected a thourough analysis of the clans that united into the Hecata and their motivations and reservations to join the other clans. But after reading it once I don't think that I got anything close to that.
          Last edited by Ignithas; 09-23-2021, 03:02 AM.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post

            What are you talking about? Except by that cute boardgame from 4th edition there's no new Ravenloft book since 3.5...

            Joking, I really didn't read it yet to have an informed opinion, as much as I trust yours.


            it's trying to be less openly racist basically, the same thing 5e has being doing all round by moving to cultures being evil, not races as a whole being evil or inferior, which is as much as I know really, not that interested in any d20 systems.

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            • #96
              Originally posted by Manfr View Post
              The fact that V5 material is less usable is a matter of tastes: V5 material tried the Requiem way of in universe fiction for setting books.
              What was lauded in Requiem Clanbooks apparently did not work for V5 Sect books, at least for many customers.
              I would say that V5 hasn't used the style of Requiem's clanbooks. Some of the clanbooks were more like first person novels with interspersed, stand alone, in universe fiction pieces, followed by appendices for the crunch. Even those that didn't read like that, such as the Ventrue clanbook, fitted into a story contained within all five books. Camarilla has a little bit of that, while Anarch, as I recall, is more like a collection of articles and interviews about Anarch ways, without a story or context about the compilation itself.

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Taggie View Post
                it's trying to be less openly racist basically, the same thing 5e has being doing all round by moving to cultures being evil, not races as a whole being evil or inferior, which is as much as I know really, not that interested in any d20 systems.
                I don't know, I always found the idea of every goblin or every orc being evil dumb as fuck and never used it. And in fact the Gnoll treatment in Volo's was one of the few instances where the fluff actually convinced me that a whole species could be evil and that be fun, due to how they're created by Yeenoghu there. So... not saying anything about Ravenloft, but that doesn't seems to really relate a lot to the rest of 5th edition, if that's what it is.

                Think I've heard something about this, indeed, they trying to be less racist by the dumb road that is changing the setting instead of acknowledging the past. Which is a shame given that racism is literally a thing within the setting to be properly worked with...


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                • #98
                  Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                  I don't know, I always found the idea of every goblin or every orc being evil dumb as fuck and never used it. And in fact the Gnoll treatment in Volo's was one of the few instances where the fluff actually convinced me that a whole species could be evil and that be fun, due to how they're created by Yeenoghu there. So... not saying anything about Ravenloft, but that doesn't seems to really relate a lot to the rest of 5th edition, if that's what it is.

                  Think I've heard something about this, indeed, they trying to be less racist by the dumb road that is changing the setting instead of acknowledging the past. Which is a shame given that racism is literally a thing within the setting to be properly worked with...
                  They are giving official options on how to remove it as a theme, rather than retgoning it afaik, but again picking this up by osmosis, not via actually playing

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Taggie View Post



                    it's trying to be less openly racist basically, the same thing 5e has being doing all round by moving to cultures being evil, not races as a whole being evil or inferior, which is as much as I know really, not that interested in any d20 systems.
                    I obviously don't object to the Retcon of the vistani since they're blatently irl Romani/Travelor. But I've never really had a problem with pure evil races/cultures in fantasy. Daleks,Nephandi, Phyrexians, ithilid, and Skaven are awesome.
                    My objections to Ravenloft 5th arnt really anything to do with moving forward with the times and are more the gentrification and sterlization of the setting into a generic fantasy setting away from it's gothic horror roots . A world like Ravenloft needs to be ugly dark and misrable to work. I've already got forgetten realms and the stats for Tannarii if I want to run a horror in a cleaner high fantasy when I run Ravenloft I want ignorant peasents, bigoted jerks who'll burn you alive for a wart, sanity blasting evil and bleak bleak moors.
                    Last edited by Ragged Robin; 09-24-2021, 09:21 AM.

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                    • Kind of that. Mind you, in a setting like Ravenloft saying that every single <insert race here> is evil is insensitive and I'm not against it being removed.

                      But saying that most people of Barovia think this is true or wouldn't ever accept a woman as a scholar is... fitting for the setting. You're portraying prejudices instead of pretending they don't exist, and saying out loud people like those exist, but they're wrong.


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                      • Originally posted by CTPhipps View Post

                        For me, the no. 1 any book should provide is adventure hooks and NPCs second with lord third.
                        1st- setting info
                        2nd- Rules
                        3rd- NPCs

                        I'll skim the fluff for metaplot i might like, and basically ignore any plot hooks.

                        I ran a heavy scripted adventure once, after having to write as much, if not more than the published material to fill in the gaps. It kinda ruined GMing for me, haven't wanted to run anything since.



                        Prone to being a Classic Curmudgeon, goshdarned whippersnappers...

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                        • One serious question I have, since I have the books but didn't read it all yet:

                          If the Gehenna War happens everywhere, what the hell is the Beckoning about!?


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                          • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                            One serious question I have, since I have the books but didn't read it all yet:

                            If the Gehenna War happens everywhere, what the hell is the Beckoning about!?
                            I think that it was officially stated the Antediluvians are everywhere so the Beckoning is summoning them to more places than just the Middle East.

                            Which is about as direct an answer as we're ever going to get.


                            Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                            • So the Antes are everywhere but nothing special is happening anywhere?


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                              • Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
                                So the Antes are everywhere but nothing special is happening anywhere?
                                Apparently a larger than normal bunch of ancients were in the Middle East (no kidding) and the Sabbat took their war to the Ashirra that they previously had not but the initial assumption of "Beckoning=Middle East" has turned out to be wrong.


                                Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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